I've been playing for 3 seasons in MN (which means 1.5 seasons for everyone else), and started to take more formal lessons this year. I started out on Big Berthas, and I had been playing with Cleveland CG4 irons (currently shafted with R TT Lite) for the last 2 years.

A month ago, I spotted a half set (7-PW) of AP2 irons (PX 5.5 shafts) at the local golf megamart, and I took a chance and bought them. And you know what? It was probably the best thing I could have done. Even though Titleist would probably label me as "aspiring" (and that would be generous), I think the AP2 half set is perfect for what I want to do.

What did I want to do? Improve my short game. First of all, I can pretty much tell you that my handicap is so high because of my chipping. I just could not chip with the CG4 irons. I actually was shopping for a PW replacement when I came across the AP2s. I've played a couple of rounds with them so far, and for whatever reason, these are so much better for chipping. Suddenly, I had a chance for getting up and down with these. Why? I suspect that the sole design of the AP2 was better for me, plus I wasn't afraid of chunking the chip- that's one area where a smaller head is an advantage. I just couldn't get past the visual of a big honking GI head and topline when I was trying to be delicate with a chip. Also, those half and 3/4 short iron shots suddenly became possible. The shafts felt closer to my wedges (CG11 52 and 58 degrees).

For full shots, the head size may look a little smaller, but when I looked at them side by side with my CG4, it wasn't THAT much smaller. Besides, the true sweet spot is still probably relatively similar in size. The topline on the AP2 looked just right for me. Not too thick (the CG4 is fairly thick), but not too thin either like a blade. Again, I was able to hit consistent shots with these irons. I don't know if it was because of the head, the sole, the shaft or a better fitting, but it worked. I was even able to hit true draws and fades for the first time.

I think there is something to the AP2 head design, with the tungsten/nickel sole doing its CG magic without increasing the sole width and ugliness in the back like GI irons. I felt it was plenty easy to get the ball up, and perhaps even the smaller head size forced me to concentrate and hit the sweet spot more regularly. The feedback is helping me too- I thought I was hitting the ball thin, but I was actually hitting the toe, and I felt it right away with the AP2.

As for the sole, I can even cut a uniform sized divot now. Whether the lie is tight, or I'm hitting in the rough, I feel like these irons can deal with any situation.

I liked the AP2 enough to buy the 6 iron. I'm going to wait to see how the new AP1 looks and decide if I want to build a mixed set with 4/5 irons.

In short, don't be afraid to try these irons even if you're "aspiring" or worse. In fact, they may help you become a better golfer. I'm really psyched to see where I can go with these irons.

Hi J lawler,

Congrats on the revelation...

So now you get it .. ..fitters like myself wincing in pain as we watch those new, shiny, thousand dollar (mizuno, etc.) iron sets fly off the racks in the big box retailers.

We know that's there's a 90% chance we could grab a handful of used shafts from the "pull out" bin - stick some average heads on them - and with a proper fitting and structuring - have that golfer playing miles ahead of where those new (poor fitting) toys will take them.

It sounds like you've got a good start, some simple length, loft and lie adjustment, ......

but.......
wait until you get your new AP_2's properly MOI matched.

(oops..... I'm creating a monster!)

zuko

Remember me, the guy with no love for the AP2's and loyal to MP32's??

I got my AP2's refitted with PX6.5, 1/2" longer and 2 deg upright.

Took them out and shot +4 first round

WOW, my best round since my college days.

I take back everything I said about these clubs and for anyone reading these comments and thinking about purchasing AP2's - GET PROPERLY FITTED.

I bought mine off the shelf and hated them, I just couldn't get a good strike on the ball

Once re-fitted to suit me they were a REVALATION

My ZM's and MP32's will be going on eBay soon

Your discussion about the tip of the V2 is likely why I haven't been hitting my 3-wood as well as I would like unless I really go after it which I don't like to do.

Anyway, thanks for all the input, and I think you did a great job with Haystack.

Certainly didn't mean to " kick you around" about you preferences. : ) Just being a bit of a golf wonk.

But don't discount that fact that you LIKED the Titelist's. Their look or what ever. One of my first questions I asked people when I've made my recommendations for clubs is "Do you LIKE them?".

Most of the macho guys tell " I don't care as long as they work". But that's not really the point. And most of them are lying. Confidence is confidence -no matter where you get it. I'll bet in 60 years you've looked down at a few clubs and thought they could do no wrong, eh?

Myself, I can hit anything, blades to bagels, not bragging, but I do this for a living. But you hand me a Ping iron and I couldn't hit a water hazard if I was standing in it. Ugliest damn things...they give me the willies.

So there's certainly nothing wrong with your preferences. The AP-2 is a great stick and a good choice. Just don't get stuck in shafts so heavy or stiff you feel like you've been fighting Indians by the back nine.

zuko

Yeah, I did chomp on that bait pretty good...but hey, couldn't pass it up....

No, the top line clubs aren't that bad - lots of great designs out there - IF they happen to the right club for you. But too often the romance gets in the way of the reality.

In the graphite vs steel thing, I have no problem with OEM steel. It's usually stock stuff anyway, i.e. PX or DG S300, etc. Same stuff I use in blanks. The problem with steel comes in when they cut the tip flex for the higher clubs...8, 9, pw, (sw). These flexes in production clubs are invariably waaaay too stiff. Folks who've never actually had the proper tip flex in their attack clubs have no idea what they are missing in loss of spin and feel with approach shots. Not to mention distance control.

Do you ( generally) swing your 9 & PW with the same force as your 5 or 6 ? I doubt it. Approach lofted clubs are meant to produce a variety of shots, and almost never at full tilt boogie.

As for the graphite, that's a crap shoot. There's no telling what you'll get. Remember: these "high end" clubs from the major makers are designed to be discounted 20-40% with-in a few months of the model debut. They can't be putting in quality graphite, sorry, that's not how the marketing wagon rolls. No way they're putting in even mid-level stuff. It's not a profit margin reality.

And believe me, even high handicappers notice when these cheap shafts with the pretty paint are spraying all over the place.

Speaking of which,

Your R7 V2 shaft is not a "real" V2. Even though the paint is nearly identical. The after market V2 is marked a few inches above the tip section with the flex indicator inscription. Yours does not - if it came with the R7 from factory. And the specs, printed on the back, are different.

I believe it claims a 2.2 - a very low torque torque rating. The "real" after market V2 is 3.0 I think. Maybe 3.3? Anyway, this can cause a the tip section to be too stiff for you - even though the overall flex rating might be appropriate you still aren't making this shaft work to potential. One possibility.

(I've hit both, and the Taylormade V2 feels kinda weird, like it can't decide where the bend point is.)

The shaft in your 580 is one of the ga-gillion Proforce 65's produced. But, (as far as I know), they really didn't make a special OEM version. They were just really stable shafts and perform with great consistency and feel.....which is likely the reason you're able to catch the ball near the center of the club face more often....which is the reason for the distance difference.

Guessing of course, but I'll bet if you used some impact tape on both drivers you'd see the 580 consistently more near the center. Club head speed being the same, that's generally the best answer. The heads themselves aren't likely to contribute a great deal of difference in those particular models.

Another long answer...sorry, still awake?

Thanks, Zuko! I have to admit I kind of set you up a little, but thank you for the detailed explanation. Hopefully it helps Haystack and others.

This week Frank Thomas had a great discussion about shafts you might like to read:

http://www.franklygolf.com/QA_weekly.html

I guess the one thing that really disturbs me is the quality of so called top line golf clubs. Are they truly that bad? Do you see much difference in the quality of graphite vs steel? In steel, True Temper vs Precision or more specifically DG300 vs PX 6.0? Just how much variability do you see? How does that translate to differences in ball flight?

I know the shafts in my AP2s were installed at the factory. I can't point to any one club and say that it performs any differently than any other. My distances seem to have the proper intervals between clubs, too.

Once I get home I will have another question to you. I have an old R580 with a Proforce 65 shaft and an original R7 with a V2 of similar weight. Once I can send you the specific specs I would like to ask you why I am hitting the old 580 significantly further. It's been a surprise to me having put the R580 back in my bag the past few weeks.

Lots of stuff here.

In no particular order:

Uniformed viewpoint: For a 70 yr old to consider the AP-2 his best choice at this stage of his career is a bit puzzling, but hey,they're fine irons and everyone has different needs. But if we agree he likely has a moderate swing speed, then a quality, thin faced cavity back would seen a more appropriate choice in the first place. Consider the Tom Wishon 770 CFE with forged insert for instance. There's others of course in that catagory. But...

He didn't say which graphite shafts he was getting, but generally my experience with OEM graphite is a pretty mixed bag of poorly rated flexes and the tip flexes are a coin toss ...
even the better names in graphite rarely seem to live up to their after market cousin's reputations.

Bringing me back to the original point I suppose, that at around 175$ a club, Haystack has a nearly unlimited choice of really fine aftermarket shafts with exceptional performance in very light light weights with solid stability. The SK Fiber Pure Energy at 65 grams for instance. Available in Stiff if necessary. I'm assuming, again, a typical 70 year old with good skills that wouldn't mind something light and fast - and that is perfectly matched to his needs.

As far as the "preciseness" of frequency matching or Kick points, folks like Haystack are exactly the type that benefit most from a really good fitting. A repeatable swing - regardless of the speed - that takes advantage of a reliable distance variance between each club. How many times have you heard " no difference between my 5 & 6 iron". Well matched frequency puts all his clubs in play.

Lastly... "and (he) will rarely"kick" a shaft to anywhere close to its limits." That's just the point. With a well fitted flex and bend point, not some guess off the rack, that's exactly what is designed to happen, fully utilizing the advantage the shaft can provide - regardless of the flex, they all can be fully loaded.

This is really not meant to be a "fitters rant", it's just that I see so many guys fall in love with (high end) clubs that really don't suit them as they think they will and would have been much better off - especially at 70 - consulting a professional and getting a great set of clubs with higher quality components..especially shafts.e

BTW ...Good stuff here, thanx

zuko

Haystack,

As a professional club fitter I recently re-built a set of Ap-2's for a local pro. He'd been sent a new set (free) from Titliest. The shafts need to be replaced as the frequencies ( flex values) were all over the place and tip-cut way too stiff. Even for him, a 13 year PGA Tour pro.

I guess my point is, buying 1300 bucks worth of clubs off the rack is a hell of gamble. For that price you can have a set custom made from pretty much the finest components available- heads, shafts, etc. This really isn't meant to be a plug for club makers, I demo'ed the AP-2's after rebuilding and thought they were great, I'm sure you'd be satisfied, I would just make sure you buy the clubs you actually hit and liked....even if they're a bit used. OEM stuff is a crap shoot.

I am curious, Zuko. I can't help but agree that mass produced clubs won't match the specs of a carefully made set of custom clubs, but how much differerence do you think a golfer like Haystack would honestly see? He says he has been playing for 60 yrs, so chances are he is 70 or older.

At professional swing speeds and their demands for precise distance and predictable control I can see where mismatched shaft frequencies might be a factor, but for a 70 year old with what I am guessing is at most an 80 to 90 MPH swing speed I doubt he will even notice anything wrong with his shafts. Unless he is a rare case I imagine he bump and runs most shots into greeens and will rarely "kick" a shaft to anywhere close to its limits.

Thoughts?