Master "Forged vs. Cast" or "Blade vs. Game-Improvement" Iron Thread

[muskegman]

Here is an article on the forged vs. cast (http://www.swingweight.com/forging.htm) debate. I found this site to be very informative and answered some fundamental questions I had about forged vs. cast clubs. From the little I have read I found that generally speaking, forged clubs are either musleback or shallow cavity back because of the limitations inherant in the forging process. Therefore there is a certain feel associated with that design. Cast clubs are generally in the "game improvement" vein (with a deeper cavity) and therefore reflect a different feel. So the difference in feel is because of design, not necessarily the type of metals used. I'm sure some of you might say differently ;-) .

I'm sure I might be starting a war here. You might be interested in googling "difference forged cast" to find out more on this subject. I found it very interesting and look foreword to reading further about it.

------
Sorry, I forgot about the thread below this one that talks about forged and cast clubs...
Jeff

[flap]

I play Yonex Tour Forged Super ADX irons and had brought Cobra SSI to replace them but after 3 months my Yonex are back in my bag.Forged irons rule!!!

[iacas]

The whole thing is a bit of a crapshoot these days, though. Titleist's 690.CB (http://www.titleist.com/irons/details.asp?id=19) is a forged cavity-back. Cavity-back clubs have traditionally been cast, but that's no longer the case. So it's getting tougher to really know the difference... and frankly, that's OK by me. :-)

[MJonGolf]

The article referred to by Muskegman (forged vs. cast) reinforces my belief that the greatest differences in modern clubs rests between the golfer's ears.

[skrumple]

I would have to say that I like the forged they juust have the best feel and look. I like players irons not game improvment so I usually like the forged anyway.

[iacas]

When I started playing golf, I bought a set of MacGregor/Jack Nicklaus forged blades from my uncle. I didn't know the first thing about cavity backs or blades, and I learned with them. I think they helped to make me the player I am today.

I've long sided with "better" clubs than I am as a player. Ping Zings or Eye 2s may be very forgiving clubs, for example, but I never thought they'd help me improve as much as playing, say, my Titleist 962Bs or my 680s or my old Mac blades. Put another way, I kinda figured that if I played clubs designed for a bogey golfer, I'd probably always be a bogey golfer, and I wouldn't learn the finer points of shotmaking, etc.

What's your take on this? Do you play clubs that are "better" than you? Do you play clubs at your current level? Maybe you've managed to use game improvement irons to get to a really low handicap. What's your philosophy on choosing equipment?

[iacas]

More on my point from a conversation I just had with Jeff, who is considering a move from Titleist 804s to Titleist 690.CBs.

Jeff: I look forward to seeing what folks have to say. FWIW, I was kind of eager to check the 690's out. I've seen a lot of serious players with them in their bag.

Erik: i've always kinda felt that if you want to stay an 18 handicapper cuz you just enjoy playing golf, go ahead
play that equipment that maximizes enjoyment
but me, i enjoy improving, learning a new shot, controlling the shape and trajectory and pulling it off
tough to do that with clubs that are effectively working against you

[Donald MacKenzie]

Hmmm. I conditionally agree with your point. The condition being, I think a mid-handicapper (10-15) who is going to take the time and effort (practice, lessons) to become a better player could show improvement using blades that are meant for a "better" player.

But, take that same skill-level golfer and subtract the commitment to improve. Blades aren't going to do anything but make the game harder when he/she does play.

I know you learned to play using fairly unforgiving irons. So did I. But I think that has to do more with drive to succeed and ability to learn. If you'd been gifted a set of Ping Eye2s, I think you'd still have turned into a pretty good stick.

The more I see, the more I think that equipment is incredibly personal. Everyone's seen the poser with a $$$$ set of blades and the latest driver that can't break 100, and everyone's played with the guy using 7 clubs, including a chipper and a putter that looks like it came out of the barrell at Putt-Putt, who shot a smooth 74. The bottom line: Get fit. If Jeff's going to go to 690s (which are nice, but not very forgiving), he'll have the most success if he gets the right shaft installed. And, he'll also be able to ask the fitter if the 690s are really right for him.

[All that said, the 690.CBs are such sweet-looking clubs that I wish I had the time to practice enough to feel confident with them! I enjoyed playing with them earlier this year, but my scores absolutely suffered. Maybe next year...]

[Thrash13]

I have the Titleist 804s, and they are the best clubs for me. I'm probably never going to be able to play enough to move into the 5-handicap area. I'm probably going to be stuck around 10-15 my entire golf career, and I think the 804s will work just fine.

If I had time to play more, I would definitely move up to the 690s possibly, but I know in my heart that my golfing days are probably going to be less and less over the years. I only get to play once or twice a week now, and there aren't any little "Thrashers" running around yet. Once that happens, I might as well retire from the game because I barely have enough time for my wife right now...let alone a couple kids.

So in closing, I feel I have the right clubs.

Any Titleist club is probably better than me by the way. :/

[Leftie_power]

You Guys point out some really good points, I know for me, I got a set of ping i3+ in my hands when i was about a 18 and over a couple years I have got down to a single digit, but it's time for me to move on from the pings, the bigger oversided, very offset makes for a forgving club but not a shotmakers club, so come spring time I will be in the marketing for something with a thiner topline, less forgving, more workable club.I think with all the clubs that are pushing the traditional blade to newer areas..like the titleist 735 cm,cleveland cg2, mizuno mp-32, You can get a very workable club, and get that look you want at address, without having to give up all the forgiviness of blades, maybe in a few years if i get down somewhere near stratch, it'll be time for full blades.

[muda]

I don't think you should play irons that are "better" for you. I think you should play the irons that "fit" you. I think Don's point is correct that the person has to strive to get better for this to even matter.

I'm a firm believer in making your practice sessions as difficult as possible, which in turn should make your playing easier. So, when I practice, I always grab my blades and persimmon woods to practice. But playing (not practicing) a club that is "better" than you (eg, you have a harder time hitting it) just because a "better" player should play those doesn't make sense to me.

[Everardo]

Practice doesn't make perfect - Perfect practice makes perfect.

What I started playing golf 2 years ago I had Ping G2's and they are a great beginners club because they are so forgiving but I couldn't feel the type of shot I was hitting and every shot felt the same good or bad.

I switched to my Mizuno's after a demo day with them a love the immediate feedback. Now my practice has improved because I can feel immediately if I've hit a good or bad shot. This has also improved my playing because I focus better on each shot now.

I don't know if I'd ever go to a full blade just because a little forgiveness is nice.

[muskegman]

Practice doesn't make perfect - Perfect practice makes perfect.

I switched to my Mizuno's after a demo day with them a love the immediate feedback. Now my practice has improved because I can feel immediately if I've hit a good or bad shot.
I wonder how your Mizunos compare to the 690.cb's. A little research might be in order on this one. I get a fair amount of feedback from the 804.OS irons. I also wonder about the difference there.

[iacas]

I wonder how your Mizunos compare to the 690.cb's. A little research might be in order on this one. I get a fair amount of feedback from the 804.OS irons. I also wonder about the difference there.
By definition, feedback also includes the flight and shape of the shot in addition to the vibrations that come through the shaft. Also by definition, a club that's more forgiving will provide less feedback because it'll attempt to "correct" the flight and shape of bad shots.

(Off-topic: the 690s are some of the most playable "player's" clubs out there. Even the 680s are eminently more playable than my old MacGregors.)

[NCGolfer]

Interesting...I've never even really given it much thought. As I've played more and more through the years I've always looked for clubs that were much more playable. When I went from my Titleist DCI's to the Mizuno-Pro II's I immediatley felt the difference. I also felt that it was time to make that change.

My own personal opinion is that you should be slightly ahead of where you want to be. Of course I'm not taking my own advice right now. I really feel like I should be hitting pure forged blades now. The Pro-II's are a hybrid and I think I could benefit from the playability of the MP-32's or MP-37's.

Staying ahead of where you want to be will keep you working towards something and at the same time less frustrated than the 25 handicapper hitting Hogan Apex irons.

[Rafcin]

I used to have irons "better" than me - the combo TP set. Took a step back this season to the LT2's and don't regret it...

[Ben]

Every once in a while I feel like I shouldn't be hitting my Mizuno MP30/33s, like "maybe I should just get some Pings and make life a littlee easier." Then I'll hit a shot that tracks like a dart and feels like a marshmellow exploding off my MP30 6-iron and all is forgotten. Man that's a good feeling.

[Leftie_power]

A pure struck iron is the greatest feeling i have ever found.....okay well maybe the second greatest feeling, but here is neither the time nor the place to discuss that....

[SGD]

""Every once in a while I feel like I shouldn't be hitting my Mizuno MP30/33s, like "maybe I should just get some Pings and make life a littlee easier." Then I'll hit a shot that tracks like a dart and feels like a marshmellow exploding off my MP30 6-iron and all is forgotten. Man that's a good feeling."

I have the same idea as u have. I am the proud owner of Miura Cabity Back forged Irons, and have been playing for less than 6 months now. I am HCP 24 now and the idea of "easier to hit" irons runs through my mind now and then. Ping G5, Taylor, Mizuno, etc.... BUT i have already lowered 12 shots from the max HCP with these, that as Eric said, if i learn to hit these, i will hit better. The MX23's are the ones i'd buy, cause when i borrow friend's Pings or Taylor, they just dont feel as nice or sound as nice, so i think im a forged Irons kinda guy.Then after im decided to buy the Mizunos, i go to the range, hit a beautiful 7 iron, feels "marshmellow exploding off it" and PROVES me i MUST keep these ones. The fact that Mr. Miura is one of the best club forger in the world helps a lot though, i've always liked good craftmanship and build quality so that even helps my confidence, even though nobody has ever heard of them.
Regards
Sergio

[kklick]

I'm currently playing the titleist 990b irons. They are in the dci line but are definitely blade inspired. If you compare them to the 690mbs they actually have less offset in every club except the wedge I believe. I'm sure they push the limits of my abilities but as others have stated there is nothing like the pure shot that you can barley feel jump off the club. I'm set on getting the new titleist 735s and trying them out. Just need a few more side jobs to come in and were in business.:-D

[Maverick]

okay, my perception is that their are ...W T FU!!!!! why the heck did Reggie try to lateral that..OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..sorry..game improvement and game assistance..I like game improvement..so yes I like to play irons slightly better than me..MP32..I don't struggle with them, but I know there's room left for me to achieve more out of them..if this makes sense.

[MooseY]

"Every once in a while I feel like I shouldn't be hitting my Mizuno MP30/33s, like "maybe I should just get some Pings and make life a littlee easier.

I am HCP 24 now and the idea of "easier to hit" irons runs through my mind now and then. Ping G5, Taylor, Mizuno, etc.... BUT i have already lowered 12 shots from the max HCP with these, that as Eric said, if i learn to hit these, i will hit better.
Sergio

Ive been seeing similar point of view like this one , ni some of the posts so far , and i must say that i don't agree with that.

Some of you are speaking like when practicing , you are trying to improve your iron technique instead of your golfing techniques , which is weird ...

I never had blades and that doesnt make me a bad player , and that doesnt mean that i would struggle if i moved to blades ,

I believe that if your technique is good enough , you should be able to hit any irons , as long as you are comfortable with them .. right now im hitting some ping i3+ and im hitting them pretty good , i also tried the new blades from titleist and i had no problems hitting them , off course i was hitting some bad shots since i needed to get use to the clubs , but not because i did not have the right techniques.

I guess what i want to say is that , you wont get better faster because you are using blades , you will get better because you'll learn how to make your swing better , and with a good swing you can hit any types of irons ...

[Gary W]

When I was just beginning to learn the game in my early 30's, I told my wife that I did not want an expensive set of clubs. The main reason is I didn't want to be "that guy" who shows up at the first tee with the finest golf equipment available, promptly slices his drive into the woods, tops every shot, and generally makes a fool of himself. In other words I wanted to be better than my clubs, at least until I could get around the course in decent form.

I had to give up the game a few years ago, and just picked it up again last fall. Being somewhat of a purist, I had my heart set on a traditional set of irons that were playable, but I could "grow into". There is no doubt that the MP60's I am playing are better than me. But then, that may be true for most of us, since I don't think you can buy a bad set of clubs today.

I know this is going to sound heretical, but honestly I hope to never replace these irons. Or better stated, I hope I have to replace them but only because I wear them out. There's something about the idea of playing with the same set of irons for many many years that is appealing to me.B-)

[SGD]

What i meant, is that if you learn to hit clubs with smaller clubface and less offset, you will force ur "swing" to be better. I recently read in some Golf Magazine, a pro saying, if you wanna hit your driver's Sweer Spot more often, hit some balls with your 5 wood teed up to ur driver's height, since the face is smaller, u'll concentrate more in hitting more often in the sweet spot.
I think the same apply with smaller or less forgiving Irons.
If i can hit mine, "with smaller sweet spot, and less forgiving", whenever i try to play with a more forgiving Iron, i will be able to.
Its like, if u learn to drive an automatic transmision car, what will you do when u have to drive a manual transmision??

Regards
Sergio

[cmarkmyers]

...if you wanna hit your driver's Sweer Spot more often, hit some balls with your 5 wood teed up to ur driver's height...

I was wondering what was meant by this when I read it, as I tried it myself the other day. Do you swing like you would a driver, with your hands out in front of you a bit? Or do you keep your hands a bit closer like you would a normal 5 wood shot?

I tried both. And when I tried putting my hands a bit in front of me I had trouble getting consistent solid contact but the few times I did the ball went a ton.

Oh, and back to the original question... I play irons that are a ton better than me. But even if I played with my nephew's little plastic snoopy club it would still be better than me. Even so, I hate my beginner’s irons, and will probably get other ones (I ordered an Innovex gap wedge, so if I like that then maybe I will get a few of those). Sure they will be even better than I am now, but I just hate these cheapies. Besides, it will be nice to get clubs with slightly larger grips. Maybe I will gain some much needed confidence, if nothing else.

[Touredgegal]

This particular post is very interesting to me as I bought my first set of clubs this last April, Touredge irons and wedges and love them very much. I suspect they are better than me at the moment but after reading many posts here I suspect in a year or so I'll be shopping again, maybe for the better TourEdge irons or maybe for something else.

[SGD]

Mark. I think it said that you should hit ur 5 wood as you hit ur Driver...
I am sure of one thing, confidence is a KEY factor. You MUST feel confident with ur irons, woods, putter, etc....
I dont like Taylor Made as a brand, i have no idea why, i just don't and everywhere u hear or read that R7 is the best driver, so i bought it, used it for 1 week, and gave it to a good friend of mine. Maybe it is actualy better than my Clevelan Launcher, but not for me.
The reason why i bought my irons, (Mr. Miura'r reputation as one of the best iron forgers in the world) gave me lots of confidence, so much i could easily say they are the best forged irons available (at least for me) and the result of this is confidence, after being playing for only 4 -5 months and is have already broken 90!!

[NM Golf]

I don't know if using an iron that is more difficult to hit is ever in the best interest of anyone below the upper echelon professionals. Heck if you check it out a A LOT of those guys even use cavity back irons. I am a pretty decent amateur and I know that I don't have near enough game to be trying to hit blades so I can shape my shots. I can do the little amount of shot shaping I need with my Pings. Really in truly I think you should play an iron that you have confidence in even if you misshit it occasionally (which most of us amateurs do). The only shot shape you need is the shape that goes into the fairway and onto the green the rest of that garbage should be left up to the pros. But that is just my opinion I could be wrong. In fact check out these pics of the pros equipment from the Sony open http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15337 (I hope I can link to golf WRX from here if I can't EB can modify)

[670forged]

I played blades for years as that's what I learned with. A year ago I tried going with MP32's and then got the Cally X-Tours and my handicap went up to 12.3 from 4.6. Just never could work the ball like I can with blades and really did not get use to something that felt like a hybrid instead of a iron.
I am now finally seeing my HC come back down as I have only had my new clubs since Thanksgiving but for me, I will not go back to cavity backs again. Of course I still play 2,3 and 4 irons over hybrids so take it for what it's worth. Nothing wrong with playing clubs that help your game and make it more enjoyable. If cavity backs work better then that's what you should play as I don't ever remember seeing anywhere on a scorecard that asked what clubs you use.

Mike

[Will]

I noticed in a recent thread that Jeff Smith said "game-improvement" irons tend to mask swing faults. Makes sense, that's their purpose. So, does it follow that, in order to improve, a golfer should use irons that are slightly beyond his current ability to hit consistently well? That way, you get feedback on your mishits, and can work to correct swing faults.

To illustrate, I've used the Ping G2's for a few years, and I like them. They're pretty forgiving. My index has been declining over the past two years, and I've been looking at some "better-player" irons (Titleist 735, Ping i5, even tried the Callaway x-tour and Taylormade TP MB).

But I have difficulty hitting those irons as well as my G2's. So, the question is, do I bite the bullet and start playing better irons, or stay with what I know?

[iacas]

So, does it follow that, in order to improve, a golfer should use irons that are slightly beyond his current ability to hit consistently well? That way, you get feedback on your mishits, and can work to correct swing faults.
We had this discussion (http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358) a while back in a thread called "are your irons better than you?"

In other words, are you playing irons that are less forgiving than you need in order to improve.

My own conclusion is that if you intend to improve, irons that are "better" than you are a good thing. If you just want to whack a ball around, get irons that suit your game and make you happiest.

[georgep]

I think it depends how much you can practice and/or play. If you get out a lot, then better irons probably will help you improve your ball striking. But if you only get out on the weekend or less, then more forgiveness will help you hit better shots when you have a less than perfect swing (which is bound to happen if you can't practice).

[Rafcin]

IMHO it's definitely the case. You get away with bad swings, therefore you won't work on improving them (subconciously we're all lazy ;-) ). Feedback is the most important feature of any iron - at least for me.

[SheriffBooth]

It might not be very genteel, but I want whatever iron is going to hit it closest to the hole. There's a lot to choose from out there and you should play with what fits your eye and makes you comfortable. It's entirely possible to become a very good player using your G2's, but if you like the way blades look then you should by all means try them out.

[FAHooGolfs]

Since you're a current PING player, you might want to look at the S59 irons in your new search. I started out playing golf with TaylorMade SuperSteels (classic game-improvement irons) but I wanted to get better, so I overdid the switch and went straight to Mizuno MP-33s. I worked my way all the way down to about an 8 with the SuperSteels and further down to at best a 6 with the 33s, but I've gone to something a little more forgiving (I do think you can overdo a switch to "better than you" irons) with the S59s (they're still "player" irons if you want to call it that) and I'm now down to a 4. They're a little more forgiving than traditional blades but on the occassion that I hit one way out on the toe, I get enough forgiveness to keep me in line and give me some good feedback without the dreaded "toe hook."

Bottom line, I'm to a point where I'm good enough to keep the ball online and aimed properly, but if my swing gets a bit out of whack, I'm not going to have my clubs overcorrect me.

[Will]

I will try the S59's. I hear Golfsmith has a good return/exchange policy.

I played with a guy today who has the 735 MB's. Nice clubs, hard for me to hit well consistently. So the S59's might be similarly difficult, but I do believe that practicing with better irons will improve things.

[ttee9]

.... I just wanted to make a comment about "game improvement" clubs ....


The golf industry makes millions (or should I say, Kazillions.?) on players that are looking for the "quick fix", the "magic club" .....

I think every player is actually looking for "consistency.." ..... the ability to make the same accurate shot time and time again in all conditions (which is hard to do.!) ..... there can be many reasons why we don't, maybe a bad swing habit, perhaps more practice is needed, maybe an extra lesson or two --- "or maybe", the clubs weren't right for us to begin with ... just because my favorite Pro can play it and the golf shop down the street recommended it (let's be honest, they're there to sell product) doesn't make it right for me ...

As in the auto industry .. what sells golf clubs is the name, the promise of a better score, what our favorite Pro was using last week .... as in the car business, we like to buy cars (and clubs) that we think will give us the better ride, more prestige, more control, a promise of better reliability .. and in the case of golf clubs - "consistency" ...

Most players today probably buy too much club and spend the next 6/12/25 months trying to play into them ... and that usually ends up in frustration and a player losing confidence ..

The best thing that could happen is, forget the name on the club .. and find clubs that you feel comfortable with, that you feel good about, clubs that you feel confident with ... and once you've conquered those, then go on ....


:banana:

[Everardo]

Most players today probably buy too much club and spend the next 6/12/25 months trying to play into them ... and that usually ends up in frustration and a player losing confidence ..

The best thing that could happen is, forget the name on the club .. and find clubs that you feel comfortable with, that you feel good about, clubs that you feel confident with ... and once you've conquered those, then go on ....

That's a good approach..

[Golfer7945]

When I decided that I was going to learn to hit a golf ball I bought a set of forged blades and went to a pro for swing lessons. I played the blades for one season and I did get to the point where I was hitting the ball fairly well. I then switched to forged cavity backs for the next season (even swap for the blades at my local pro shop). Currently I am playing a set of custom fitted double forged Evolution irons from KZG these irons go from cavity to blade as the clubs increase in loft. (I use Hybrids for the 3 and 4 iron).
Summary! I like the approach of avoiding game improvement irons when the golfer is committed to lessons, practice and Play! Quick note having your clubs built for you gives you the advantage of choosing the correct shaft for your swing speed, your height etc. (find a pro that you trust and consult with him or her) Happy golfing!

[muskegman]

Good swings result in good shots. Anyone who promises a better game through equipment is really missing the point. Thats why I chuckled when "The Perfect Club" commercial came on yesterday. Sure, certain game improvement clubs won't penalize us as much but they won't fix swing faults.

I'm putting better swings on the irons I'm playing now (though I still suck in oh-so-many-ways) than the one's I played previously. I think these irons have forced me to think about how to get the proper result. Game improvement clubs had me tossing iron at the ball and hoping for the best.

A good swing is more important than forgiving equipment.

Good topic. Again. :-P

[A.J.]

I don't know about all this "game improvment" stuff. Its not like pros are all playing blades. I like an oversized iron without to much shelf that feels really solid when struck well.

I can't handle a wide soled club though. I hit the Adams G2 and G3 irons the other day at a golf shop and it was ridiculous. I launched the 4 iron ABOVE my normal ball flight for a wedge.

[Dinkoh]

I agree with that better irons are better for your game. But, it comes at a cost.... My elbows are killing me!

[DDBowdoin]

You just have to be honest with yourself. What I mean by that is assessing yourself in terms of your natural ability and how you perceive the future of your game. I guess there is a hands down answer to your question, everyone here has really nailed the head on the coffin... they are counterproductive... but only if you see some promise in the future of your game.

Althought... I must say that the irons do mask faulty swings but they do create a strong sense of confidence in a player.. so I see G impr irons as only a drain on your income b/c eventually you get to a point where you'll start to dislike the offset and wide soles of such irons and move into a smaller cavity/forged iron which will just cost you more money

[DDBowdoin]

In response to some of the posts I completely agree that the multi billion dollar golf industry definately plays on the magic fix club... but like I said before much of this is also the beautiful marketing campaigns conducted by such companies. I think it all comes down to your perspective on golf and where you see yourself in the game. I started playing golf later in my life, I am 21 and started playing two and half years ago, and so for me because I have progressed so fast in a such a relatively short period of time I enjoy the game but constantly am looking to push myself to new levels. If you are the weekend warrior who takes a cart on a short course and drinks beers while playing then sure, a wide soled hyrbid or fancy Callaway fusion is perfect for you because the purpose of your playing is a combination of enjoyment and competitive spirit yet it is obviously tipped towards enjoyment.

For myself and other aspiring players I acheive enjoyment through pure competition. I enjoy thinking about and talking about the game but that all leaves my head when I am on the course. It's like what Tigers says, when I step out there you may be my friend but I am there to destroy you... that's because my version of enjoyment comes from the thrill of an individual sport...

and about salesman... as a former golf employee its important for people to understand that the "spiffs" or commission from big name clubs is absolutely nothing. commissions are supported by the manufacturer and not a retailer, so Titleist, Mizuno and Callaway...etc (big names) have little to nothing in terms of commission ... literally if I sold a set of 690MB.S my commission was 2.35 whereas a set of nickents or macgregors was 45-60 a set of irons...

name brand isnt as important to me as much as type of club, I like a forged club with minimal offset and all of that jazz and astetics is everything because it inspires confidence, and confidence is king

[slimeberry]

OK guys. I'm fairly new to golf, about a year and a half playing now. I am also very new to this forum. I emailed Eric a few days ago and he was great. This is, however, a forum, so I have decides to take advantage of that. You guys all seen to know what you are talking about so I will run it past everyone. First, here is a little history. Sorry in advance for the length of this thread.

I am about an 18 hpt. player. I have been playing since Sept. 2004. I have improved a great deal from when I started (shooting in the 130's + with a little creative and forgiving scoring from my friends, to shooting a legitg. 94 on an average day). I started out as nearly every new golfer does, picking clubs not based on my swing type and ability, but based on Golf Digest and Golf Magazine, Hot Lists, etc.

I ended up buying, off the rack, my first set of non-hand-me-down clubs from Golf Galaxy. Ping G2 Driver / 3/ 5 Wood, Nike 22.o CPR Hybrid, Big Bertha Irons, Cleveland G10 wedges, and a 2 Ball White Hot Putter (Switched to a Cameron Studio last fall and love it).

I got some lessons from my pro at our club and started working on my game. My score, obviously, is getting better, but I can never get everything to work together. My irons are on fire, but my drives are everywhere. My Drives are straight, but I'm pulling my irons, etc.
So, I go back for more lessons and ask my pro to see if my off the rack equipment is right for me. It was not, and in a bad way.

Now, here is where I know I will get some mixed opinions because Cobra is considered a game improving product, but...

I ended up going with...

Cobra F Speed Driver
Cobra F Speed 3 Wood
Cobra Baffler 2/R
and Cobra Baffler 4/R ... on my longer clubs.

I love them. I am hitting greens from 230 yds with my 2/R Hybrid and my drives, while not much longer, seem to find more fairways than ever before. I feel that his decision to put me in these clubs was a wise one. I have more confidence in my game than ever, in terms of longer clubs.

My wedges were also 2.o off and the shafts were too short off the shelf. Same thing... I had him fit me and decided to go w/ ...

Titleist Vokey 52.o 200 Series GW
Titleist Vokey 56.o Spin Milled SW
and Titleist Vokey 60.o Spin Milled LW

Again, much improvement. My short game seems to be improving as well. I spun my LW about 4 ft. back just yesterday from 70 yds. to give myself a 2 foot birdie tap in.

Again, I feel that the club fitting made a HUGE difference.

OK, so on to irons. This is where I need some serious advice...

Been playing w/ my Bertha's. The clubs were, again, off the rack and too short and 2.o off. Tried my buddies Ping Eye 2 +'s, in my length and lie angle, believe it or not, but they seem very heavy and I seem to dig and chunk the ball a lot with them. Just seem kind of weird. My pro hates them and says that the technology and material has improved in 20 years, so why play with the Pings anyway?

So I have, again been fiffed to my size and lie. My pro recomended the Titleist 775.CB (5 - P).

Here is the issue...

First of all I love the look of these clubs. I can see, now, how my Bertha's really do look like a "Brick on a Stick". However, the Titleist's, well they intimidate me. I know that these are Titleist's most forgiving clubs, but I have never believed me to be good enough to play w/ Titleist Irons. (Although it seems as though everyone on this site plays Titleist).

I have hit them on the range and have had mixed results. My good shots are GREAT, but my "mis-hits" are every where. I took out a demo set yesterday, and I think I may have hit 2 good irons all day. Luckily my Drives and short game saved me, or I would have been back up to that 130 score again.

I want these clubs. I want to be a "Titleist Guy", because, let's face it, they make the most impressive and elite equipment in the market. They look good, great. But, as many of you say that clubs like this inspire confidence, when I look down at address, self doubt beging to creeop in and I loose confidence.

My pro says these are the clubs for me. That I will get it dialed in with a few more hours on the range. They are Titleist's most forgiving club and he says I will not out grow them for a LONG time.

He has been right w/ everything else he has suggested, but I am still very hesitant and confused about this decision.

You all talk of weekend warriors vs serious players. I am probably in the middle. I play about three times a week on a good week, take a lesson about once a month, hit range balls during lunch, etc. But, I have 2 small kids, a wife, and a business that I run. I don't see myself being able to play every day for a very, very long time (although I would like to).

I guess, after all this, the question is...

I just don't know where I fall. I want to improve. I play to win (although I never do at this point). I want to become a better player. But will I just be frustrating myself if I go with an iron that is "better" than I am.

You all are probably laughing out loud at this point, because you all play MB clubs, and these are still CB's, but this is a big step for me.

Would I be better off using a correctly fited set of "bricks", or will I gain confidence as I begin to use these clubs more and more?

I know that a lot of this is personal and that no one can say how I will play down the road, but any advise on the 775's, your thoughts on where I am as a player, your suggestion about club selection, etc. would be most appreciated. You all, again, seem to know a great deal more about this subject than I do, so any feedback at all would be great.

Again, sorry for the long thread. Thanks in advance, Scott

[DDBowdoin]

Ok, so lets get a few things settled. As I said before in my previous posts it comes down to where you see yourself going in the near future. What I mean by this is I have no idea how you play but from what you wrote it seems you are truly dedicated to the game. SO its a difficult situation because clubs that are right for you now may be not be right in a year. I am like you as I only started 3 years ago and what happened was I would get fit with a GII and then I would progress so quickly I would need the next level club and so it would continue. I have gone through 3 sets of irons and am finally settled with my Titleists.

So... it all comes down to your financial situation. Realistically you would probably want to go with an iron that suits you now and in the future get new clubs according to your ability. If you can't afford to do that then I personally would go with clubs that are a bit out of your range, I personally believe they'll force you to practice more and play to their ability because you know if you miss it will be bad. It worked for me...

[iacas]

Scott had emailed me this same thing, and I sent him a response...

I read your reviews on The Sand Trap web site and enjoy them very much. You seem very knowledgeable on the subject of club reviews, etc. I am struggling with some decisions and think I have found the answer, but would like some reinforcement from someone who is not trying to sell me anything to help me make up my mind. Since you seem to be a Titleist expert, I am coming to you. Hope thats OK.

That's fine. But, I didn't write the 775.CB review - Donald MacKenzie did. I'll BCC him on this email, but he can be reached at [email removed]

Here is some background info. I am about an 18 hpt. player. I have only been playing for about 2 years and try to play at least twice a week (Spring - Fall) and at least 2 to three times a month in the winter. I have watched my score fall from the 130's and up when I first started to the mid 90's on a good day now. I started playing with a Ping G2 Driver / 3 Wood / 5 Wood, a Nike 22.o CPR Hybrid, Callaway Big Bertha Irons, Cleveland G10 Wedges (52, 56, 60), and a 2 Ball Whit Hot Putter. I switched to a Cameron Newport Studio a year later and LOVE IT!!!

All of these clubs are off the rack from Golf Galaxy. I have done OK, as my score is dropping, but have been bitten by the bug of new clubs and am in need (or want) of a new set. I have made my decision and, along with the help of my local pro (custom club fitting), am VERY happy with my new clubs.

I am now hitting ...

Cobra F Speed 9.0 Driver
Cobra F Speed 3 Wood 15.o
Cobra Baffler Hybrid 2/R
Cobra Baffler Hybrid 4/R
(all w/ Stiff Flex Adila NV Shaft)

I have switched wedges and am now hitting ...

Titleist Vokey 200 Series 52.o GW
Titleist Vokey Spin Milled 56.o SW
Titleist Vokey Spin Milled 60.o LW
(all 2.o upright and 1/2" over standard)

I am hitting my drives, hybrids, and wedges better than ever and expect my score to gradually continue to shrink.

Let me cut in quickly here and point out something that's probably obvious, but which bears repeating anyway: new clubs won't shrink your scores alone (though properly fitted clubs can, yeah). If you're going to expect to shoot lower scores, expect to work harder at your game in addition to getting proper club fitting.

My trouble is with my irons. I started out slicing my irons as a beginner. The weighting that is built in to the Bertha's helped me stay straight. However, now that I am hitting the ball a little better I find myself hitting the ball higher than desired and pulling it left. I have hit some Ping Eye 2 + that my friend swears by, but seem to chunk and dig a lot more than usual. They feel heavy and weird.

So, I went back to my pro for a fitting and he recommended a set of Titleist 775.CB (5-P) to fill out my set. I hit the ball better wit these clubs than with any of the other clubs, ON SOLID HIT SHOTS. On mis-hits, I seemed to be all over the place. The sting from the shaft seemed to give me more feedback than the Bertha's on my mis-hits (which is a good thing), but for some reason these clubs intimidate me.

In our forum, there are a few threads on "are your clubs better than you are" or "game improvement versus muscleback" clubs and so on. Some (like myself) believe that playing "tougher to hit" clubs leads to improvement because you know where you (mis)hit the ball and aren't rewarded for it as you can be with some of the more forgiving clubs.

Others feel that they want to shoot good scores and perhaps aren't willing to suffer possible discouragement at the hands of "tough" irons.

Which side of the fence are you on?

One final note here: the 775s are Titleist's least demanding set of irons. But since they're Titleists, they do demand a good bit more than most everyone else's "game improvement" clubs.

I have never considered myself good enough to play Titleist Irons. I love the look of Titleist Irons and have always dreamed of playing them, but have always assumed that they were not for me.

So, I did some research. Seems as though Players like you and the guys at The Sand Trap don't really love them because they are still game improving irons, although forged, and are still for high hptrs. You guys like the 735.CM's better, but my pro said I wasn't there yet. Hacks seem to not like them either because they are not as forgiving as Callaway's or Pings. So, I am absolutely confused. I can find virtually no reviews on line. Gold Digest has barley mentioned them.

Titleist strongly prefers that people be custom fitted for their irons, which is why they tend not to approve of having reviews done in those massive "club tests" that Golf Magazine and Golf Digest put on.

Like I said, when I hit them good, I really love the ball flight, carry, etc. When I mis-hit I still can sense SOME forgiveness, but not as much as my "bricks on sticks" I have been playing. I know you guys say to learn to play with them, VS being coddled by game improving clubs forever, but our club champion still uses Callaway's.

I'm a bit of a traditionalist. I don't know that I'll ever get used to looking down a Big Bertha iron topline - they're thick and, to me, ugly.

I also am not out to shoot the lowest score - I get something else out of golf - the satisfaction of a well struck shot, an appreciation for being able to hit balls that go low, high, curve left or right, etc. And more... I can't do that with a super "forgiving" club, so I use what I use.

You simply have to find what you get out of golf, and align your club choice with that. Perhaps you're not a Titleist kind of guy, perhaps you are. If you look at your clubs as a status item - as in "I'm _good_ enough to play them," even for yourself - that's good and bad. Confidence is good, but what about the days you don't hit them too well - will you feel bad about the game of golf or will you be inspired to work harder?

Your club champion may not get satisfaction out of the same things I enjoy. He may want the most forgiving club he can find so he can shoot the lowest score possible.

It's a broad spectrum, the "what do you enjoy about golf" spectrum. Where you find yourself on that spectrum will tell you a lot about what kinds of clubs you would enjoy using.

What is your opinion on the Titleist 775.CB vs a Super Sized game improving iron. Like I said, I think a lot of it is a mental block that is keeping me from believing I can play w/ a set of Titleist.

I've never hit them. You'll want to talk to Don about that.

Right now I have hit so many buckets of balls with so many different clubs that I feel as though my arms will fall off. I think the Titleist are the way to go, but needed the advise of a non partisan expert. Any advice would be very helpful and most appreciated.

I'm not non-partisan, I assure you of that. I have my tastes and biases like anyone else, and though you may initially think I've not given you an actual answer, the answer is "I can't give you an answer." And, I think, that's the best answer you can get right now. You have to look at yourself, discover what you want to get out of golf and what you can get out of your equipment, and go from there.

[slimeberry]

Eric,

Thanks for the reply and taking the time to answer each issue that I brought up in my email. You were very helpful in getting me to think about the type of golfer I want to become, not just winning a skin next weekend.

I think that my issues w/ the Titleist irons are more mental than my physical ability to hit them. I guess it seemed kind of weird for me that my pro would suggest game improving long clubs to me like the Cobra Speeds and Bafflers, (he also had me hit the Titleist 905) and then turn around and suggest Titleist Irons, which are much LESS forgiving than Cobra Irons, or the Bertha's and Eye 2's I had been hitting. Like I said, self doubt creeps in when I address w/ the 775's, a mental "I'm not worthy" montra, so to speak. I think a few lessons with these irons and some time put in on the range will cure my of my worries. Although taking it from the range to the track isn't always the easiest thing for me.

I just like to hear other' imput and advice before making such a game changing decision. I think that I probably will get worse before I get better with these clubs, but clearly my game needs a lot of work anyway. I think that with the proper time served, I will learn to hit these clubs. It's not as though I am swithcing to muscle backs anyway.

I also appreciate the advice from the previous guy who posted before Eric. Thanks.

I have decided to go w/ the 775's and will see what happens. Obviously, I do love the game and am very dedicated to it (too much so, my wife thinks) or I wouldn't put so much time and worry into picking the proper clubs. I would just go back to Golf Galaxy and buy the next hottest thing.

You guys have been a big help. Thanks, and I will let you know how the next few rounds turn out.

[shortgame85]

I have just read this thread and, as you can see from "what's in my bag," I, too, chose the 775CB set. As a fellow high handicapper trying to lower my score and enjoy the game, I like playing a less forgiving iron than the Callaways I previously played, in part, because the less forgiving club forces me to work harder on the quality of my swing. Because I am not ready for clubs like the 735CM, the 775CB clubs seem to me a step in the right direction. I appreciate and agree with Eric's response to your queries, as your quest for an appropriate iron set seemed very similar to mine. I hope you enjoy your new irons as much as I enjoy mine. How do you like the Cobra baffler and Driver?

[slimeberry]

Thanks for the reply. I love my Cobra products. I own a Ping G2, have owned a Nike SQ (that was a mistake), and have demoed the Titleist 905R and Callaway Fusion. By far I like the Cobra better than any of them. I would say that the G2 and the 905R would be seconds, but not even close seconds.

I also love the Bafflers. The Nike CPR's I used to hit really ballooned the ball up, almost too high for my taste. These Cobra's feel great. They have a more classic look than the CPR's, which were very ugly in my opinion. And the the ball flight is perfect for me.

We have a 519 yd. par 5 at my home track. I used to hit driver, hybrid, wedge, to be on in 3 (assuming I didn't shank my wedge and end up right of the green). With these new Cobra's, the last 4 times I have played I have been on in 2 w/ Driver and my R/2 Baffler 3 out of those 4 times. The 4th time I was in a green side bunker in 2, still not bad.

I know that not every club is right for every player, but these Cobra's seem to fit me like a glove.

As for the Titleist 775's, I should be getting them in about a week. In the mean time I have been using the clubs demo set. I have good shots and bad ones, but don't we all. If you get a second, let me know how long it took you to really get dialed in with those clubs after switching from your "game improving" sticks. Just curious.

Thanks for the post, and let me know if you try the Speeds and Bafflers. Can't say enough good things about them.

[slimeberry]

Sorry. From the look of your "What's in my bag"... it looks like you already are using the Speed and Baffler. :8) Anyway, I think they are great clubs.

[DDBowdoin]

I have a feeling you'll really enjoy your 775's ...

as for me, I am in love with the feel of the 735cm's but they do take a lot of work, especially with my shafts being a tad stiff I was suprised that I wasn't really penalized all that much... my clubs were custom made but they were kept at a standard lie and my balls are pulling a little left... my previous clubs were 2 flat and I think I might bend these clubs a degree flat to split the difference

[shortgame85]

Scott: I went from graphite shafts in my Callaway set of irons to Nippon reg flex steel in the 775CBs. I thought the heavier shaft might take some adjustment and might cause some loss of distance. I was wrong on both counts. Actually, the Titleist clubs feel less whippy and seem to me easier to control; by that, I mean the clubhead seems easier to square. Consequently, I seem to be able to get the ball in the right direction more often with the new clubs. I also prefer the way the ball feels when well struck with the Titleist clubs. Getting the distances of each loft didn't take that long. The differences I noticed between these clubs and my previous ones had to do with feel and a greater sense of control. I just like the way it feels to strike a ball well with these clubs. I also like the looks of these irons better than the Callaways: they seem smaller, thinner and more square. They are a little less forgiving, but that fact has caused me to work a bit harder on my swing mechanics. Also, the pitching wedge and the gap wedge give me great confidence around the green, and I have hit better chip shots with these iron than the Callaways ( well, I have practiced my chipping a bit more lately and that may have something to do with enjoying a little more success ). They have less offset in the shorter irons and I really like that, especially as I transition to my Vokey 56* wedge. Good luck with your irons.

[Golfer7945]

Hello! fellow golfers, I am playing KZG forged irons (fitted) and find that my ball striking is becoming more dynamic. Playing properly fitted forged irons is not a hindrance to shot making (like my friends said that this type of club would be) I find the clubs to be moderately forgiving when I am having an off day. On days that I am confident and relaxed hitting shots with the forged irons is a pure rush of adrenaline fueled joy.

I look forward to reading the comments from members who have played both game improvement irons and forged irons cavity and or blade style.

Dale

[cdriver]

I look forward to reading the comments from members who have played both game improvement irons and forged irons cavity and or blade style.

Dale

I started out playing Maxifli Revolution irons, which are mildly cavity-backed with reduced offset. I loved them. They had a little forgiveness, but you could still work the ball. I have since tried several different styles of clubheads, but always migrate back to something with minimal forgiveness and very little offset. That usually translates to forged.

I currently have a set of TA V-31 Reduced offset blades which I just love. I agree that they are not harder to hit than cavity back. You still have to hit the middle of the clubface. The big difference is you know when you hit it good or bad.

I just cannot get used to setting up with a club with a thick topline. I have a set of Wilson Fat Shaft irons but I feel like I am trying to aim an anvil.

I also have a set of DCI990 Titleists that are sweet hitting clubs.

Yeah, I know I am a club wonk.... At least I don't drink and chase women, my wife is satisfied that this addiction is fairly harmless to our marriage.

[SSandlin]

The first set of clubs I ever had (and still have) are Wilson X31 blades from the late 60s. When I really started playing about a year and a half ago, I got a set of Wilson Deep Red II tour clubs. They're really nice, but very harsh on mishits as far as stinging. I found out that forged stainless can be bent more than the chrome (I'm 6'7"), so I chose to go with Titleist 804s to get started and then moved up to the 735s in the 410 stainless. I love the feel, but honestly I needed the forged clubs to be able to bend up enough for my height. Cast and the forged chrome clubs can only go up 2 degrees and extend out 1", or so I'm told.

I can sincerely say that I got forged clubs out of necessity. I'm glad I did. I can't imagine going back to a cast set.

[Nichols74]

I just recently switched (about 2 weeks ago) from TM rac OS's to The Titleist 755 which are forged cavity/muscle back....I LOVE THEM. Im 6'6" so they are 1 inch longer and 2 degrees upright..I had them fitted and im thrilled with them. When i make solid contact its the best feeling ive had when it comes to ball striking, BUT I do feel miss hits but they dont sting just enough feedback to know i didnt hit the center of the club face.


forged have my vote

[seppo]

My first set was a AMF Beginner Set "Custom Fit".
The Irons were cast and had a very deep cavity back.

Whenever i played a ball wrong i was wondering why. It didnt matter though because these irons were so forgiving that the ball would always fly somewhere.

After giving these Irons to my father this summer who wants to start playing golf I switched to Mizuno MP60 (also custom fit).

Now it is the complete opposite, whenever I dont hit the sweetspot I feel it in my whole Body, especially the arms and back :-D

I really love that feeling and i would recommend any mid-handicapper to get some forged muscle backs or slight cavity backs even if you cant use them like a pro because it will improve your game a lot when you train with a high responding iron.

Another intresting fact is: I really like the look of the Mizunos and therefore play much more golf then i did with the AMF Cast Clubs

[seppo]

I switched from Cast Deep Cavity Back AMF Irons to Mizuno MP60 and the feeling of these forged muscle Back irons is just awesome.

The deep cavitys where so forgiving that i could play with my lousy swing style and think I was good.

Now I really feel what I do wrong. It is heaven to hit the sweetspot and a tiny Divot and hell if it is an off-center, socket or what-so-ever-hit where the gras flys farther then the ball.

I recommend forged, non-forgiving irons and a nice Pro if you want to learn fast.

There is an old saying: "Learning through pain" (I am not american so I dont know if that is good english but I think you all get the meaning :-) )

[Archery]

I was playing forged irons since last year. Because for better control.

[Naruto]

why, for the same reason i still play with featherie's and hickory shafted clubs....... to make the whole golfing experience more humbling of course....:~(

[HXCarib56]

I love the look of blades, but have never gone to them. I grew up on Wilson, then Ping irons....Call me a cavity-back kid.

For me, I'm a solid ball striker, and I just enjoy the feel of a solid cavity iron. Maybe playing my teens with Pings "forged" that identity. (Everyone get my pun? Haha...I'm a cheese ball!)

Currently, I play the X-18 Pro Series, and am in no hurry to switch to blades. I've been around scratch (+3 at best, about a 3 right now working down coming back from injuries), and I personally think blades are overused in the general public.

[powerchild33]

Love forged irons!

[Nichols74]

FEEL FEEL FEEL FEEL.....and the reward of hitting it just like the club was designed to be struck.

I will Never own anything other than forged

[ipark1303]

I play Titleist 735. CM irons , which are the perfect combo of cavity back and blade irons (still forged for feel response)

[jrbechthold]

I told my wife I wanted to get some new clubs this year, and am currently just trying to figure out which way to go.

I love the clean, pure lines of forged blades i.e. Mizuno MP67 (http://www.mizunousa.com/equipment.nsf/AllProduct/72EAC3784ABE7C47852571C300513B90?opendocument&div=golf&cat=irons) and Nicklaus JNP (http://www.nicklaus-golf.com/premium/jnpforged.php) but I am not sure if my game is on that level yet. I may get a good set of cavity back irons to increase the sweet spot and then as my ball striking improves move to the blades.

[LarryK]

I would have thought someone would have jumped in with this point by now, but follow this link for a discussion about forged vs. cast irons. It reflects what I have always understood to be true about the two different club types.

In other words, it isn't the manufacturing process you guys are noticing in the way the club plays. It's in the design.

http://golf.about.com/od/faqs/f/cast_forged.htm

[ezmoney5150]

There was an article printed not too long ago where one of the Ping players was handed a forged Ping and didn't even notice the difference. That's how good the casting process has gotten. I have always had Pings (Ping Zing2, Ping ISI, Ping I3), with the exception of Tommy Armour 845's, and have always loved them. I figured the cavity back cast club would save me on mis-hits. about 3 years ago a friend of mine had a set of Snake Eye blades he built and let me borrow. I shot 81 not even warming up and hitting balls with them. which is great at my home course. My mis-hits with the blades went just as far as my Ping I3's. And I liked the thin top line. I gave them back to him and went out that day and demo'd all the Mizuno irons and settled on the MP-37's. Workability and top line is everything to me so I was hooked. I just recently switched to the MP-67's and the feel of those are like butter. Put a blind fold on and I can't tell the difference in feel between the MP-67's and my old Ping I3's.

I'm hooked on forged.

[AzCoastie]

I'm thinking of going with the rac MP TP irons (http://www.taylormadegolf.com/product_detail.asp?pID=86&section=overview), but haven't hit 'em yet. I love the look though.

Anyone have these? Thoughts?

[Atomic]

i havent noticed much difference in feel between a forged iron and a good cast iron. i think the actual material has more to do with it than how it was formed.

[Naruto]

well as i read the article saying that their is virtually no difference between the forged and the cast clubs, i was curious....so i set out to see if i could find any contradictary articles...i found this at Wikipedia

"Irons are mainly produced by two processes, casting and forging. Cast irons are produced by casting molten metal in a pre-shaped cast. Forged irons are heated and beaten into the desired shape. Cast irons (Example: Ping G5 Irons) provide the user with less feel, but are less difficult to hit consistently, and are therefore preferred by the higher handicap golfer. They are impossible to alter more than a degree, as the casting process causes the metal to set firmly. Forged irons (for example the Wilson OS Irons), have a softer feel and are less forgiving to a user - they cause the ball to turn more off line, otherwise called more workability, and the club heads can be bent to the user's specifications, though the bending also naturally occurs during play, forcing players to check the lies and lofts of their irons periodically."

so which is it...having hit both...I would say that Wikipedia is correct because nothing feels as smooth as a well struck blade....i have hit wonderful shots with cast irons but they dont feel nearly as good as the the great strikes with my Mizzy's......

and if there is no difference in the hardness/softness why cant you bend cast irons more than one degree and how come you have to readjust your forgings so often? simple, the forging bends easier because it is SOFTER....

Here is the URL that i got that info from.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf_club_(equipment)

[Atomic]

well as i read the article saying that their is virtually no difference between the forged and the cast clubs, i was curious....so i set out to see if i could find any contradictary articles...i found this at Wikipedia

"Irons are mainly produced by two processes, casting and forging. Cast irons are produced by casting molten metal in a pre-shaped cast. Forged irons are heated and beaten into the desired shape. Cast irons (Example: Ping G5 Irons) provide the user with less feel, but are less difficult to hit consistently, and are therefore preferred by the higher handicap golfer. They are impossible to alter more than a degree, as the casting process causes the metal to set firmly. Forged irons (for example the Wilson OS Irons), have a softer feel and are less forgiving to a user - they cause the ball to turn more off line, otherwise called more workability, and the club heads can be bent to the user's specifications, though the bending also naturally occurs during play, forcing players to check the lies and lofts of their irons periodically."

so which is it...having hit both...I would say that Wikipedia is correct because nothing feels as smooth as a well struck blade....i have hit wonderful shots with cast irons but they dont feel nearly as good as the the great strikes with my Mizzy's......

and if there is no difference in the hardness/softness why cant you bend cast irons more than one degree and how come you have to readjust your forgings so often? simple, the forging bends easier because it is SOFTER....

Here is the URL that i got that info from.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf_club_(equipment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golf_club_%28equipment))


good post. :)
i think this debate will rage on forever.. people will be arguing over cast and forged irons even when they arent made out of metal anymore. :P haha

i would say take that wiki with a grain of salt, as i know for sure that ping cast irons, and most others that are made from 431 SS can be bent up to 4*.
also there have been studies done to try to define what exactly "feel" really is. the conclusion has been that a large component of feel is sound.
i would say "feel" is something very subjective and comparitive. who is to say that well struck blade shot doesnt just feel better to you because an off center shot with the same blade feels comparitively worse than with a cast cavity back.

im not saying one is better or worse, but if your initial starting point is skewed in either direction, it can change your whole point of view.

anyway, i play mostly cavity backs, and i have used both forged and cast cavities... both in soft carbon steel and different types of SS. they all felt the same to me respective to each other. if i were to compare a cavity to a blade it is certain to feel different no matter how it is made.

[NM Golf]

I am surprised none of the big forged blade lovers have joined in on this debate.

I personally started with Pings which are, of course, cast irons. The irons I now hit are forged and I really like them. On the other hand as much as I like my forged irons, I am really looking at going back to a ping iron. Mind you even my forged set were not blades, at least not the long irons. Even at a solid 2 handicap I don't see me ever switching to a forged blade as they are just too darn hard to hit.

Getting back on topic, forged or cast it doesn't matter. Look at the bags on tour, sure forged irons probably outnumber cast but there are a bunch of cast irons being used out there. Pick the one that you personally like the look and feel of.

IMHO I think people let their egos pick their clubs for them way too often. I don't know how many 6 handicappers I have heard say they needed a forged blade so they could work the ball. Work the ball!? Please!? Try hitting it straight before you start mixing in that gentle fade.

[J.P.]

I have two thoughts on this.

1. FEEDBACK. One reason to choose forged. So that you can learn through trial and error, where center face contact is and how to get there often.

2. Forged clubs FEEL better because they are softer metal. I would assert that the ball stays on the face an instant longer - kind of like tennis - this DOES rob some ball speed - but most forged players are willing to trade this speed for the FEEL.

Love my 30's & perhaps will get to the 67's when I get to 5. Just something to shoot for & reward for me.:-)

[wachesawgolfer]

i havent noticed much difference in feel between a forged iron and a good cast iron. i think the actual material has more to do with it than how it was formed.

I think the original question is hard to understand and the quote above is right on. There really is not a whole lot difference from a forged cavity and well made cast cavity of the same size and design. The steel in the cast is a little harder but will give you the same feel of a good hit. There are over-sized cavities which are cast or forged, and play basically the same. There are also numerous cast clubs which are so large and hollow (huge game improvement designs) only a cast can make them and these clubs offer little feedback on well struck shots and really cannot be compared to "player's type cast or forged designs. A great cast club head are the Marumans M series, cast of a soft metal they look, feel and play exactly as a forged club.

[alockrem]

I play the Titleist 695 Mb irons and I am having a great time with them (got them for Christmas). In the past couple of weeks I have really learned to laugh at myself with the bad shots.

The main reason I wanted these irons is because I felt I could hit the same shot consistantly with cavity backs, but the lack of feedback left me wondering how good my swings really were. I got my answer :(

[Konrad]

Forged, because the feel is great. And they don't make any cast irons that are progressive forgiveness like my Nike ProCombo's.

[iacas]

Forged here, because I like the control, feel, and looks.

[ipark1303]

Forged here, because I like the control, feel, and looks.
On your 735.CM irons, do you have the chrome version or the stainless version?

[chingali]

I am currently playing forged irons and the reason isn't that they feel softer or harder or hit the ball straighter or longer etc etc.

The reason I am playing forged irons is when I was last looking for a set of irons the ones that looked the best to ME happened to be forged. If they had of been cast that's what I would be playing. I play and practice a lot and am a fairly decent ball striker who has played off handicaps between scratch and 6. My current forged irons (and all other forged sets I have ever owned) have developed that nice little "wear spot" right in the middle of the face from about 5 iron down so I am catching them all solid so I have no real need for game improvement type clubs.

Over the last 25+ years I have used forged and cast clubs from just about every manufacturer and I really couldn't tell the difference as to how soft/hard they feel, catch any of them in the middle and they all feel good.

Basically I am influenced completely by how an iron looks to me at setup, end of the story. Once they are set up to my specs they all work well for me.

My alltime favourite set of irons also happened to be forged, Ram Tour Grinds from the early to mid eighties, I wore out three sets of them :)

[supercow]

Have to agree with chingali on this. I can't really feel a difference between irons when you catch them flush. Perhaps the only real perceivable difference for me is that the location of the sweetspot tends to be different. Most of the forged baldes that I have played have tended to have a sweetspot closer to the heel (due to the longer hosel and therefore an alteration in the location of the sweetspot). If I remember correctly, the MP-32 was in fact the first true blade the Mizuno made where the sweetspot was consistently in the centre of the clubface throughout the entire set. You would have thought manufacturers would have perfected this decades ago!

[neudi]

I bought grain flow forged mp 33's about 6 years ago, granted they are beaten to hell, but I absolutely LOVE THEM still. They have a great feel, and a great look. That is why I play forged irons, is because they have the best feel out of any of them out there to me.

[golfnut_rlv]

I have been playing forged irons for a long time. I was probably playing them before I had the ability to do so. I am currently playing Mizuno MP-67. I also have a set of MP-60's. The MP-67 Blades are the most forgiving, yes, most forgiving, and sweetest clubs I have ever played. Nothing like that soft, solid feel of a blade.

[BASHERBAKER69]

Hi

im happy enough with my 8 year old set of Titleist dci 990s!..there are so many sets of clubs on the market now that i struggle to differentiate between them.

bb69

[Big Don]

I recently received a set of Nike forged blades as a present. As a high handicap player I wondered whether I'd be able to hit them at all. Much to my surprise I have found them to be relatively easy to hit and certainly no less forgiving than my old cavity backs. Sure hits of the toe and heel are not too pretty but the cavity backs weren't really any better in that respect.

My ball trajectory is much higher leading to softer landings. This together with better accuracy and length has been most satisfying. However, what I really like is the lighter softer feel of the club face when striking balls; my old cavity backs feel very hard and nasty by comparison. I am really enjoying my Nike's and my confidence with my irons is growing.

My conclusion is that the so called forgiveness of cavity backs is way overrated as is the difficulty in hitting blades.

[SSandlin]

On your 735.CM irons, do you have the chrome version or the stainless version?

I can't speak for Erik, but mine are the stainless version. Mainly it's because that was the only metal that would allow me to have them bent up 4 degrees and extended out 1.5". I'm 6'7" so I needed the adjustments made and the chrome would not allow it, at least that's what I was told.

I have heard that the stainless is a little softer than the chrome, but I have no experience playing the chrome ones. I will say that mine are very soft even on a thin shot or mishit. Not so soft that I don't know what's going on, but they don't leave my funny bone ringing for 4 holes either. And, on the occassions that I do hit the center, I barely feel the ball. I can't complain about them. I just played yesterday in 36 degree weather up in Alabama and had no problems with stinging fingers on mishits.

[cmarkmyers]

The debate should really be cavity back versus blades, rather than cast versus forged. Anyone who has read Wishon or Maltby will tell you that the manufacturing process has nothing to do with something like workability or forgiveness (I know this has been said already). And personally I will take what I have read from those two guys over Wikipedia any day.

I have hit cast blades and clubs with minimal cavities and I have hit forged clubs with big cavities. The forged clubs were more forgiving and less workable than the cast.

Again, I know this has been said, but it is a bit tiring reading the same misconceptions over and over. The reason people seem to think forged automatically equals workability and cast automatically equals forgiveness is due to the manufacturing limitations in the forging process. You just can't make a forged club with the same type of forgiving cavity that you can when casting. It is much more difficult to get a lower center of gravity that is placed further back when forging.

Another reason you don't see that many very forgiving forged clubs is the cost. Forging is more expensive than casting so forged clubs typically cost more. Players that need forgiveness are typically newer/less experienced golfers and these people don't want to spend the kind of money that forged clubs cost. So there is less of a market for forged, forgiving irons.

Other misconceptions I have read regarding forged clubs are distance and distance control. Yes forged clubs are generally softer (hence the different feel) but this does not do anything for height, trajectory, distance control, etc. Again it comes down to the design of the head and not the material. A softer steel will not make a noticeable difference when it comes to how far you are hitting the ball.

But I still like forged clubs. I like the look, and I like the feel. Since so much of golf is mental being comfortable with your clubs is just as important as their MOI and CG.

[jrbechthold]

But I still like forged clubs. I like the look, and I like the feel. Since so much of golf is mental being comfortable with your clubs is just as important as their MOI and CG.

I agree 100%. I love the look of a nice "blade", but until my game warants it, I will stick to a club that has a cavity back so that I get all the benfits from a larger center of gravity.

[BigHitta]

I have been having trouble finding which irons I am going to purchase this season.

I have been playing blades since I was little and I have no problem with the feel or the unforgiviness.

This summer I am going to be playing golf everyday, should I go with blades like the Mizuno MP-67 or cavity back players irons like the Taylormade R7 TP's.

To give you some background my previous irons went in this order: Titleist blades (old don't know model), Ben Hogan Apex Edge, and most recently the Taylormade Rac Combo TP's. I love the feel of blades, but the biggest problem I have is greens in regulation.

I am going to be playing so much this summer I will have time to adapt to either, if anyone has an opinion it would be greatly appreciated.

If anyone wants to post their thoughts on blades and cavity backs feel free.

[ezmoney5150]

Your handicap is good enough to play the MP-67's thats for sure. I love mine. I really like the top line on them. If you could blind fold test between the Mizuno MP-67 and any cavity back you couldn't tell the difference. They're that good.

[Fisherdude]

Played forged blades, now have a set of TaylorMade RAC cavity backs.

I loved the feel of the blades. Keep in mind, when you hit it in the middle, they all feel the same.

I can't imagine why anybody, under any circumstances, unless you're Tiger, would play anything but cavity back irons. Assuming you want to score your best. They just give you too much of an advantage to pass up.

You might as well be using persimmon woods and a blade style putter.

I guarantee your GIR will go up. Quickly. This is EXACTLY what better irons will do for you.

[NM Golf]

I can't imagine why anybody, under any circumstances, unless you're Tiger, would play anything but cavity back irons. Assuming you want to score your best. They just give you too much of an advantage to pass up.

I wouldn't go that far but I would say anyone over about a 2 or 3 handicap is doing a disservice to themselves by playing blades. First, higher handicappers don't hit the center of the clubface consistantly enough the be using blades. They need the forgiveness of a cavity back. Second, higher handicaps can't work the ball well enough to take advantage of a blade.
Some will disagree with me on this, but every pro I work with will tell you the same thing.
You have a good enough handicap, go pick out a good players cavity back iron. You will benefit from the forgiveness, and will give up very little in feel.

[Fisherdude]

...
You have a good enough handicap, go pick out a good players cavity back iron. You will benefit from the forgiveness, and will give up very little in feel.

Works for me!;-)

[lane_3303]

You might as well be using persimmon woods and a blade style putter.

Whats wrong with a blade sytle putter??? I like my putter :-(


But yeah cavity backs all the way(even though I love the look of blades)

[golfgolfer]

Personally I would prefer Cavity backs.

There are differences between the cavity backs of yester-years and the current ones. Nowadays, with the advancement of technology, many cavity backs provide the feels of blades and yet have the forgiveness of cavity backs.

I tried the new R7 TP the other day. Well, personally i quite like it.

[fusioncal]

First of all, golf is tough enough. Do yourself a favor don't make it worse for yourself. Besides we are simply human and we can't consistently hit the ball right at the center of the club face all the time. That's where the cavity back come in to help. Indeed muscle back is more appealing than cavity back. Performance wise, however, cavity back provides more forgiveness off-center hits. If you're looking for something in between but still a player's iron, you might want to try cavity blade like Titleist 695CB, Mizuno MP-60, TaylorMade R7 TP, Callaway X-Forged or something along those lines.

I personally would choose cavity backs. I just love the smile off my face when I don't hit right but the result is still good.

[Eveleth]

Something to consider, I was reading the "Club Test" issue of Golf Magazine and in it they mentioned the approximate percentage of PGA Players still playing true "Blades". The overwhelming percentage of PGA Professionals play Cavity Back Irons. They made the statement to the effect, that if the best players in the world choose to play cavity backs, perhaps it would be a good idea for us regular folks to follow their lead.

In recent years several companies have developed some excellent forged cavity back irons, that don't compromise feel and provide a great degree of shot shaping flexiability. But at the end of the day it's your money and your call, but don't dismiss cavity back irons, the guy's who do it for a living think they're a good choice!

[ezmoney5150]

Something to consider, I was reading the "Club Test" issue of Golf Magazine and in it they mentioned the approximate percentage of PGA Players still playing true "Blades". The overwhelming percentage of PGA Professionals play Cavity Back Irons. They made the statement to the effect, that if the best players in the world choose to play cavity backs, perhaps it would be a good idea for us regular folks to follow their lead.

In recent years several companies have developed some excellent forged cavity back irons, that don't compromise feel and provide a great degree of shot shaping flexiability. But at the end of the day it's your money and your call, but don't dismiss cavity back irons, the guy's who do it for a living think they're a good choice!


That's not a good comparison. They are under contract to play the clubs the company offers. Ping for example doesn't offer forged blades. I can tell you one thing Mizuno players aren't playing MX-25's thats for sure. I Play forged blades and my mis-hits are no worse than when I was playing Ping I3's. It might be the cut muscle on the back but these feel like butter.

[Eveleth]

Perhaps your correct, but some of the best players on Tour, are only contractually obligated to play sponsor's equipment if they feel it meets their expectations of performance. I would submit that since this is their career, and winning is the sole puropose of why they play. There are not too many PGA players who would play a cavity back irons if they didn't feel they provided them with a competative advantage and increased their ability to preform at the required level to win on Tour.

[Linkster]

Why not mix your set, MP-67 down low and the MP-60 up on top? great feel in the scoring irons and a little ease on the long ones.

[milesdowsett]

There are two simple issues to consider when playing blades, above cavity backs:

Firstly, the feel of a mild forged steel blade is softer than that of a cast cavity back iron, so if it's feel your after, go for the blades.

Secondly, it is a lot harder to work the ball left, right, high and low with a cavity back; so if it's essential to work the ball easily, go with the blades.

However, if you don't hit the ball off the middle of the bat each time and don't find yourself needing to work the ball left or right all that much (which is 90% of golfers) you should just go with the cavity every time.

Personally, I would spend more time fitting the correct shaft to your irons, than the actual head, as it will have much more impact on your consistancy and flight of ball than the type of iron you use.

Hope this helps

Miles

[ezmoney5150]

Perhaps your correct, but some of the best players on Tour, are only contractually obligated to play sponsor's equipment if they feel it meets their expectations of performance. I would submit that since this is their career, and winning is the sole puropose of why they play. There are not too many PGA players who would play a cavity back irons if they didn't feel they provided them with a competative advantage and increased their ability to preform at the required level to win on Tour.

When Fred Couples switched from Tommy Armour to Lynx he wasn't playing Tommy Armour Irons and his game suffered. He didn't switch back to start winning. I could be wrong but Tiger Woods was probably the first one to have a contract where he could play whatever he wanted if Nike was inferior to other clubs. Remember when he switched back to a Titleist driver.

I'll give you another example. All through the 90's Greg Norman advertised King Kobra cavity back Irons in all the golf magazines but he played Cobra blades.

[NM Golf]

That's not a good comparison. They are under contract to play the clubs the company offers. Ping for example doesn't offer forged blades. I can tell you one thing Mizuno players aren't playing MX-25's thats for sure. I Play forged blades and my mis-hits are no worse than when I was playing Ping I3's. It might be the cut muscle on the back but these feel like butter.

Pga tour professionals do not compromise the playability of their clubs just to make a buck. And since Ping and Callaway are the only companies I know of on the PGA tour that don't make a blade then why is this not a good comparison. Lots of players who play Titleist don't play a blade, Titleist does make a blade model, the players just choose not to play it. The same goes for every club manufacturer on tour except the two mentioned above. A winners check on tour, and tour winnings pay a lot more bills than equipment contracts do. Sure there are a few players that get big equipment money but most do not. And even the ones that do are not going to let their games faulter to play an iron not well suited for their games.

I'll give you another example. All through the 90's Greg Norman advertised King Kobra cavity back Irons in all the golf magazines but he played Cobra blades.

Norman endorsed King Cobra he never agreed to play a specific iron they made. He made commercials saying how great they were, so what what does that prove? One he came up in a time when there weren't any cavity back irons. He prefers blades big deal. He is also a professional who was #1 in the world for a long time.

What it come down to is this. The best ball strikers in the world, a majority of them choose to play a cavity back iron. They are the best yet they see a benefit in playing irons that are more forgiving. What does that tell us? You have to decide that on your own.

[lane_3303]

Wow This is getting heated lol!!!
No but like I said in another topic,
Blades are for like 10% of golfers out there(if that much)
Realisticly Most amateurs Should play cavity backs. If just for pace of play.
Just think if All 30+handicappers Played Titleist 695.MB'S ???

[kafka01]

Just bought a set of MP-67´s. I know i cant play them yet, guess i won´t use them on a round for a couple of months but i will start practicing with them on the range and for playing i still have my Callaway´s.

The problem with the MP-67 - they just look so damn good, and i like the challenge - lets see if i´m up to it :)

[milesdowsett]

It's actually good to practice with old clubs to get your strike solid. Apparently Ernie Els hits his 20 year old Persimmon driver to do this in practice; it makes him focus on the strike more than trying to rip it one with a forgiving driver

[chingali]

Why don't you get a bag with 50 identical balls in it and then find a nice area and hit them all with a blade style 5 iron made up to your specs and then walk out and see how deep the grouping is. If you are making good solid contact right out of the middle you should find that your longest one goes less than ten yards further than your shortest. If the variance is greater than 10 yards then you are not making good consistent contact and you should be thinking about the cavity backs.

[flashman70]

I'm 58 and played with blades when I was younger. But since approximately 1988 I've hit mostly Pings. No, they don't feel as good as a Mizuno when hit pure, but they sure do cover up my mis-hits. And I can tell you, I have more mis-hits than I do pure hits. I can still work the ball with my Ping i3's, I just have to exaggerate my closed or open stance a little bit to get the ball to turn left or right.

There are cavity backs that have thin top lines, so one gets the impression of a blade, but for me, give me all the game improvement I can get. That said, I am about to go with hybrids for 3 and 4 irons (joining my 16' 2 iron hybrid). I'll probably go with G5s.

[BigHitta]

I still can't get over the picture you have Eveleth.:-O :-D :-O :-D :-O :-D :-O :-D :-O :-D.......................Off topic, sorry.

I think the looks of the blades is what draws me into buying them everytime, not to mention my dad is a golf purist so I would get a little greif if I hit cavitys.

You should have seen his face when I came home with a 460cc driver!!!!

[jaydotscott]

Both for me...MP60s and 67s (do those qualify as a blade?)...Depending on how I am swinging that day...

[Hoff]

I opted for a little of each. I have this huge desire to hit blades but lack the game to pull it off. I opted for titleist 735's to try and get the best of both worlds. I went from TA5 cavities to the 735 combo set and my scrores stayed roughly the same. So it seems like a good option to me.

[ezmoney5150]

Pga tour professionals do not compromise the playability of their clubs just to make a buck. And since Ping and Callaway are the only companies I know of on the PGA tour that don't make a blade then why is this not a good comparison. Lots of players who play Titleist don't play a blade, Titleist does make a blade model, the players just choose not to play it. The same goes for every club manufacturer on tour except the two mentioned above. A winners check on tour, and tour winnings pay a lot more bills than equipment contracts do. Sure there are a few players that get big equipment money but most do not. And even the ones that do are not going to let their games faulter to play an iron not well suited for their games.



I have to respectfully disagree with you in the assertion that pros don't compromise playability to make a buck. In the mid 90's Payne Stewart signed a big contract with Top Flite to play their irons and their balls. He went through a big slump and blamed it on playing cavity back irons when he preferred blades. Now I'm not saying this is the rule. More the exception. But you cant say it doesn't ever happen. I can produce that article on Payne if you like.

Maybe Titleist blades aren't as good. I don't know. I've never hit them. I'm sure Ernie Els and Adam Scott would disagree though. Have you noticed the new x-tour models by Callaway? real thin top line. Almost looks like a blade. It won't be long before they make a muscle back for their tour players. Nike does and Tiger plays them.

[jb1982]

I'm curious as to all your thoughts on this. At the beginning of last season I was a 15 handicap. I was playing Nike Slingshot (game improvement) irons. My irons were my weakest part of my game and it seemed even when I was hitting them solid my distances were VERY inconsistant. I demoed and bought some Nike Forged Blades. Everyone said I was not good enough for blades and that I'd hate them. Since buying these irons, my iron play has improved drasticly. Yes they are less forgiving, but the force me have a smooth consistant swing. Now my distances are always within 5 yards or so and my handicap has been dropping ever since.

What's everyone else's opinion on this?? Should mid handicappers give players irons a shot, or stick with the oversized game improvement irons?

BTW, There is no sweeter feeling than puring a long iron with a blade!!!

[Snowman]

I am in the process of doing exactly what you have done. For the past 10 years, my playing and practice time has really suffered, the typical marriage and kids conflicts. But with the passing of my birthday just last week, I have rededicated myself to playing golf.

I am pretty happy with whats in my bag mostly, knowing that practice will take 10 strokes off my handicap very fast. It is just my irons that just have an issue with. My current set are the old 1995 Big Bertha irons. They are so clunky looking that it is hard to not think that the next shot will be hit fat, when I am setting up to the ball.

I really like the feel on my forged wedges, so I wanted to go with forged irons. My brother inlaw, the one person I play with when I do get to play, rants up and down that I do not have the game to use forged clubs.

Well just to prove him wrong, I went ahead and ordered the X Forged irons, will be here tomorrow. Not too concerned with hitting the long irons, I carry 3 hybrids, so the longest iron in my bag will be a 6.

Going to the range on Saturday, and plan on playing the nine hole course there, will let you know how it turns out.

[Jeepthrills]

I had been shopping for irons for the past few months. I did my research and decided that I wanted to go with the Titleist 775cb. It is a game improvement club by Titleist standards, but it is still forged and very consistent. One of the comments I read was that it is the perfect club for the 15 handicap that wants to be single figures in a hurry. Being a 17 I loved that idea. I also have some other Titleist clubs that I really like so it made sense.

I went to Golfsmith and the salesperson essentially tried to talk me out of them. Saying that as a 17 I would be better off with something more forgiving. He never asked me where I am dropping the most shots or anything else that might help determine what club was best for me. He reccomended the TaylorMade R7 and the Callaway X-20. I went to a place with an outdoor range and demo clubs in + 1" and hit them side by side. I happened to mention the 775 to the salesperson there and he thought they were a great idea for me to try. I hit all three and the 775 was the best of the bunch. I went back 2 weeks later and hit the 775 and the R7 again and it only made the descision easier. I went back to Golfsmith last night and ordered the 775's. I will have them in about 10 days. The sales person I dealt with last night thought they would be a great club for me. The difference between him and the first guy was that he really listened to what I was saying. I said that I am a 17 now, but have improved each year for some time. I don't intend on staying at 17. I want to be a 16, 15, 14....9, etc. Hell. I want to be a scratch someday. I wanted clubs that would help me get there. Not ones that would only help me get through the next couple years.

So all things considered, I think I found a club that bridges the gap between the two.

[jb1982]

I am in the process of doing exactly what you have done. For the past 10 years, my playing and practice time has really suffered, the typical marriage and kids conflicts. But with the passing of my birthday just last week, I have rededicated myself to playing golf.

I am pretty happy with whats in my bag mostly, knowing that practice will take 10 strokes off my handicap very fast. It is just my irons that just have an issue with. My current set are the old 1995 Big Bertha irons. They are so clunky looking that it is hard to not think that the next shot will be hit fat, when I am setting up to the ball.

I really like the feel on my forged wedges, so I wanted to go with forged irons. My brother inlaw, the one person I play with when I do get to play, rants up and down that I do not have the game to use forged clubs.

Well just to prove him wrong, I went ahead and ordered the X Forged irons, will be here tomorrow. Not too concerned with hitting the long irons, I carry 3 hybrids, so the longest iron in my bag will be a 6.

Going to the range on Saturday, and plan on playing the nine hole course there, will let you know how it turns out.


Glad to hear I'm not the only mid handicapper to try the less forgiving clubs. You should at least try one of the long irons. Even with the blades, my 3 iron is my most consistant club off the tee. I can hit it low under the wind and work it both ways.

[Snowman]

Oh I do plan on reintroducing the long irons into my bag, but probably not until next season. It has just been so long of a break from golf for me, I need to just get out there and practice, to try to find my old swing.

Back before I was married, I had a friend who played hogan blades. When we would go to the range together, I would hit his clubs just for giggles. Back then, I was able to easily hit his low irons, but never got a set myself. Guess I was too young and stupid, allowing myself to be scared off from all the "You have to be scratch to play blades" hype.

What it comes down to, is that I want a set of clubs I can grow into, instead of growing out of them.

[NM Golf]

I'm curious as to all your thoughts on this. At the beginning of last season I was a 15 handicap. I was playing Nike Slingshot (game improvement) irons. My irons were my weakest part of my game and it seemed even when I was hitting them solid my distances were VERY inconsistant. I demoed and bought some Nike Forged Blades. Everyone said I was not good enough for blades and that I'd hate them. Since buying these irons, my iron play has improved drasticly. Yes they are less forgiving, but the force me have a smooth consistant swing. Now my distances are always within 5 yards or so and my handicap has been dropping ever since.

What's everyone else's opinion on this?? Should mid handicappers give players irons a shot, or stick with the oversized game improvement irons?

BTW, There is no sweeter feeling than puring a long iron with a blade!!!

This has been discussed on several threads on this forum. While choosing an iron is entirely up the the individual, I would never suggest anyone less than a scratch player use blades. Mind you this is my opinion and there are those out there that will disagree. On the other side if this I think there are forged cavity backs out there that are great clubs for the mid handicapper. IMHO I cannot see any benefit a mid handicapper would get from using a blade. The only reason to even buy blades would be to improve workability. Since mid handicappers have a difficult enough time just hitting straight golf shots I don't see how they would need to work the ball that much. Plus really and truly I can work the ball just fine with my cavity backs. I mean even on tour, cavity backs are abound. I do not know the actual ratio of blades to cavity backs on the tour but from what I have seen in the tournaments I watched, at least half the players had CB's in their bag. If the best players in the world don't need a blade iron then I sure as hell don't either.
I mean the whole "theres no better feeling than puring a shot with a blade", well all I can say is that shot doesn't roll any closer to the hole than the one I hit with my cavity back, but the next one that we both hit on the toe, well mine will be a heck of a lot closer than yours will be.

[jb1982]

This has been discussed on several threads on this forum. While choosing an iron is entirely up the the individual, I would never suggest anyone less than a scratch player use blades. Mind you this is my opinion and there are those out there that will disagree. On the other side if this I think there are forged cavity backs out there that are great clubs for the mid handicapper. IMHO I cannot see any benefit a mid handicapper would get from using a blade. The only reason to even buy blades would be to improve workability. Since mid handicappers have a difficult enough time just hitting straight golf shots I don't see how they would need to work the ball that much. Plus really and truly I can work the ball just fine with my cavity backs. I mean even on tour, cavity backs are abound. I do not know the actual ratio of blades to cavity backs on the tour but from what I have seen in the tournaments I watched, at least half the players had CB's in their bag. If the best players in the world don't need a blade iron then I sure as hell don't either.
I mean the whole "theres no better feeling than puring a shot with a blade", well all I can say is that shot doesn't roll any closer to the hole than the one I hit with my cavity back, but the next one that we both hit on the toe, well mine will be a heck of a lot closer than yours will be.

How do you like your procombos?? I looked at those before I bought the blades. Also, I think part of the reason I like the blades is because I grew up playing an old set of grandfather's. The were old wilson blades, so maybe it's just what I'm used to. I never really liked the cavity backs.

[neonlew]

While on this discussion of game improvement irons, I am considering buying a set of irons and at looking at these two irons sets -- Taylor Made R7 Draw and Cobra S9. Has anyone played with either of these irons? If so, would like some feedback.

I am a high handicap golfer, normally shooting in the high 90s. Swing speed with a #5 iron is between 68-72 mph. Swing tempo is made up of a slow takeaway and a faster downswing. I have a tendency to push the ball right when not hitting dead center. Llooking for a little more distance and more accuracy. Currently play with a set of Top Flite XlL 2000 irons with a regular flex shaft.

Any info would be most helpful since I know a new set of Taylor Made or Cobra irons will cost more than component irons.

Lew

[Mulligan26]

Today at the cleveland demo day as I was waiting for my hibore 3w to be built I screwed around with the CG1 black pearls. I used a 6 iron, std, with the project x 6.5 shaft. Because of the shaft I was horribly inconsistant but I was hitting draws 200yds up hill. Granted right after I did that I slapped one 90 yds in front of me. That alone tells me that I am no where near the level of a blade iron. In the summer I plan on buying the MP-60's and really improving with them.

By the way, only 10% of THE PGA TOUR play blades. That came directly from Golf Digest. I can't remember what month but Im sure I can dig it up if you guys really want proof.

[NM Golf]

How do you like your procombos?? I looked at those before I bought the blades.

I like them a lot. They are the best of both worlds. Blades on the short irons cavity backs on the long.


By the way, only 10% of THE PGA TOUR play blades. That came directly from Golf Digest. I can't remember what month but Im sure I can dig it up if you guys really want proof.

WOW I would have wagered a guess that cavity backs were in the somewhat heavy majority, but never that bad. If that is true then I really don't need to be playing blades.(not that I was going to anyway.) I mean really could 90% of the best players in the world be wrong?

[atm90210]

i have done something very similar. i started playing golf with my dad's hand me down lynx blades. i got really really good with them and then my dad talked me into getting cavity backs to help with those few errant shots but keep the good shots. i played for 5 years with cavity backs and never felt right. the only way i could tell a mishit was when walking to the ball and not having the distance i was expecting. my cavity backs hid any mishit. anyways, with cavity backs my handicap actually climbed higher. with the blades i consistantly shot in the mid to upper 80s. this past summer my handicap and scores moved into the upper 90s region.

i bought a new driver that summer, after i dented the face of my old one. the new driver i liked and eventually bought was a titleist 905T. all of a sudden my feel started coming back. then, my irons really started bugging me, since i would have good drives and good putting but i still couldn't start scoring. i started shopping around for some new irons with the disapprovement of my dad. to get him off my back, i tested both cavity backs, along with the muscle backs and blades. over testing and retesting, i settled in on the mizuno mp60s. the sales clerk, my dad, my dad's playing partners all told me that i couldn't play the mizunos. they reasoned that the forged heads and blade like set up would cause my game to shoot higher.

well, i bought the clubs and did have a rough couple of months while getting used to them. i played my dad last month for the first time since december, and beat him by 15 strokes. when leaving the course, he apologized for doubting my club selection and said that my game has never been better. he said he saw shots that i haven't hit in years that day.

needless to say, i am pleased with my selection. but like others have said, golf is a personal sport. what works with one person won't always work with another. i suggest no matter your handicap get the clubs that feel the best for you and keep you happy while on the course.

[Mulligan26]

WOW I would have wagered a guess that cavity backs were in the somewhat heavy majority, but never that bad. If that is true then I really don't need to be playing blades.(not that I was going to anyway.) I mean really could 90% of the best players in the world be wrong?


I was shocked as well but its the truth. Atm how do you like your MP-60's, can I get a review?

[MGP]

I've played Wilson and Tileist blades all my golfing life (about 35 years) and for the first time this year I'm going to switch to a "game improvement" iron.

I'm getting older (I'll be 47 in June) and I don't have the same swing speed or flexibility I did when I was younger. I'm also starting to have a little back and joint trouble, although I am hoping a new fitness regime fixes that.

I am building a new set of irons (in fact they are on the curing rack right now) and they'll be the first set of clubs that I've had that were truly matched to fit my size and swing characteristics. I'm really looking forward to these clubs as I hit the the test club I built really really well on the range.

[mRogers88]

even though im 18. and apparently a lot younger than the majority of you here on the boards, im not too into the whole forged/blade concept.

i dont fully understand/comprehend the idea of working the ball nor do i want to because quite frankly im not playing for money. yea my golf game is important to me, and i want to be a good player. ideally shooting in the low 80's. but irons wont do that for you.

short game is what creates low scores i dont care what anyone says. irons only push that white ball down the course enough for you to start working your short game. so a game improvement iron vs. a blade vs. a forged iron is really just based on what status you want to exude and what impression you want to give. but i sure as hell hope with those bladed or forged irons you dont chunk the shit outta the fairway at pebble beach. that would be a shame.

i personally just bought the 06 callaway big berthas. pretty much the biggest freakin irons ive ever seen. but i tell u what, i can hit the hell outta em.

[PingZing2]

i dont fully understand/comprehend the idea of working the ball nor do i want to because quite frankly im not playing for money. yea my golf game is important to me, and i want to be a good player. ideally shooting in the low 80's. but irons wont do that for you.


I have read these forums for awhile and just never got around to registering. However, first off there are alot of people on these forums that want to play the best they possibly can and don't want to just settle for anything.

I hope you don't take offense to this but you preach a lot on that which you do not know.

Yes those irons you have are good irons for the people that want to go to the course for the weekend and play a decent round but don't want to or can't put in the time to become a good ball striker. And YES players irons will help get you to become a better then average player, short game is important, and driving is important. That being said I hit more full or 3/4 irons in a round then I do wedge shots.

Yes these players irons don't do well if you chunk the ball but people that use them with success are fairly dedicated to the game and have far better then average ball striking. A person can understand what the difference is in a good swing and a get you by swing (which you can have with the game improvement irons).

Obviousily if you can't work the ball at this point you don't understand the importance of it. Hopefully you will someday, I just hope you keep an open mind about it.

ETA - Players irons don't necessarily have to be blades. eg. MP-60

[mRogers88]

does anyone follow jazz?

-the most influential and skilled player every to pick up a saxophone, Charlie Parker, went a great amount of time playing on a plastic saxophone and it didnt change anything about the way he played saxophone..

the same concept holds true to "big boy" irons vs "not so big boy" irons.

[Mulligan26]

No it doesn't, players irons are much less forgiving than game improvement irons. You might "hit the hell" out of your big bertha's; but I bet if you put a blade or a forged CB iron in your hands you might find yourself not "hitting the hell" out of them. It takes much more skill to handle "big boy" irons under pressure so don't try and belittle them just because you probably haven't used them or have the intention to do so.

[muskegman]

does anyone follow jazz?

-the most influential and skilled player every to pick up a saxophone, Charlie Parker, went a great amount of time playing on a plastic saxophone and it didnt change anything about the way he played saxophone..

the same concept holds true to "big boy" irons vs "not so big boy" irons.

No, but as a sax player and forged iron player I enjoy the feel of the real thing. Actually, the plastic saxophone argument is a great one against game-improvement clubs. For example, every drummer I've played with prefers an acoustic set over an electronic one. I prefer a Selmer saxophone over a "Casio" any day of the week. As a guitarist I much prefer a fine wooden guitar over a composite one because it provides more feel and richer tone.

All musicians like instruments that resonate more which is basically what a players club does for you. Brilliant illustration!

Having said that, if you enjoy game improvement clubs, keep playing them. You have your reasons, I have mine. :-)

[lamebums]

I have cavity back irons, and one of my buddies has blades. If he and I both hit in the sweet spot, we'll both be smack out in the middle of the fairway. However, if we both catch the toe of our clubs, we'll both be off to the right. He will be a hell of a lot further off to the right, however.

[mRogers88]

No it doesn't, players irons are much less forgiving than game improvement irons. You might "hit the hell" out of your big bertha's; but I bet if you put a blade or a forged CB iron in your hands you might find yourself not "hitting the hell" out of them. It takes much more skill to handle "big boy" irons under pressure so don't try and belittle them just because you probably haven't used them or have the intention to do so.



i wasnt belittling players irons. quite frankly i was doing the opposite.

what i meant by the jazz post was this:

as i have mentioned Charlie Parker is one of hte greatest sax players of his era, and possibly all time (much debate has ensued over that fact however). i believe his horn of choice was a "king". a relatively well known horn. a "players" horn. most horns are made of metal. theye produce the best sound. he played on a plastic horn for quite some time. there is hardly such thing AS a plastic horn. supposedly the greatest hindrance to his playing ability. but its quite the opposite. he was the same player.

so with that being said. if you a great golfer, your a great golfer. yes, "players" irons may or may not improve and enhance your game to the next level. just as a "players horn" will enhance your playing and take you to the next level.

but by no means will 'game improvement' irons hinder your game. the player you are defines how you hit the club. not the club.

(oh and for the record i enjoy Kielworth and Yanagisawa horns.. meyer 6m mouthpiece :-) ) haha

[AMGfan]

I need all the forgiveness I can get since I have more margin of error in my swing. My misses are less off line with the game improvement irons. A better player will almost always trump me regardless of what irons he/she has...I played with guy about a month ago and he had an old set of Titliest blades that must have been at least 10 yrs old and a driver the size of a 3wood head and he still wumped me. His swing was just better and more consistent than mine...

The only reason he said he would change his set is to increase his overall distance, but since he wasn't pro material and his discretionary cash was limited he was not motivated to do so...a player is a player no matter what club they have in their hands.

[glebert]

I can admit that I am a high handicapper, or would be if I ever established one. I found that my iron play was the weakest part of my game. I had no control left to right. So back in December I picked up some blades and vowed to play blades until April and practice regularly (2-3 times a week). They have never really added any strokes to my score, my average is about the same. What I love about them is that they tell me the truth. How can I get better if my clubs are masking my swing flaws? There are more important things than the score I shoot today.

For what's it worth, I believe my control is getting better. I am going to keep playing my Apex Grinds until the end of the month, and then go and and pull my two sets of cavity backs out of storage and make a decision, but I can pretty much guarantee that my Adams GT3s are going to get traded in. My swing got incredibly sloppy while using them.

[PingZing2]

I need all the forgiveness I can get since I have more margin of error in my swing. My misses are less off line with the game improvement irons.

I have never seen you play golf so this may not apply to you. But I have seen a few people about where you are at high single digit handicaps or low double digit. For most people when you reach this area the fundamentals are there, just small things affect your score. One day you may go out and shot around par then the next it may be mid to high 80's. Mostly depending on how your swing is that particular day.

I would bet that if you decrease your margin of error you will shave strokes off your handicap. I am not saying go out and buy a set of blades, but I would recommend looking around for a couple quality used players irons 5,7,9 or something like that (or borrow some), go to the range and hit them for awhile. Once the majority of your shots are hitting your club where they are suppose to, give the CGB's a shot. Most are amazed at the consistency they will have with cavity backs after that.

[iacas]

but by no means will 'game improvement' irons hinder your game. the player you are defines how you hit the club. not the club.

That's not true. Last year I played awhile with the r7 TP irons. They're as "forgiving" an irons as I've played in the past x years. After an initial run where I was making birdies after bad swings because the clubs helped me, my game slowly started to fall apart. Why? Because I couldn't tell the difference between perfect contact and so-so contact. So then so-so contact slipped to not-so-great contact, and on down the line.

"Tougher" irons or "players" irons (forged, muscleback, etc.) help my game. Cavity-back "game improvement" irons only temporarily improve my game.

[mRogers88]

not all cavity backs are game improvement.

you guys are making it seem like a game improvement iron masks your flaws. that is 100% not the case. if you toe it, thin it, thick it, pull it, push it, come around the inside, come from the outside etc. you will see it. its not like every time a golfball even touches the clubface it goes shooting out perfectly straight.

lol im not like, trying to "sell" products here but i think some of you are being close minded and ignorant to the fact that your equipment has little to do with your game.

how was ben hogan one of the greatest golfers of all time?
-and i knoooowww some smarta** is going to say "well he had bladed irons". maybe true. but they didnt know about swing plane, and weighted clubs and shafts and grips and golfballs nearly like we do today.

[babywax]

The point everyone is trying to make, is that player's irons in general will force you to become a better player because you won't be able to make bad contact nearly as often.
If you hit the sweet spot every time with game improvement irons, and you can shape the ball, it's not going to make a big difference. However, if you do use player's irons you don't really have the option of missing, and as such they encourage better contact. Game improvement irons tend to mask the shots that aren't as solid, and as such can allow you to slip off your game a little.

[iacas]

you guys are making it seem like a game improvement iron masks your flaws.

That's what they do. That's what they're designed to do.

lol im not like, trying to "sell" products here but i think some of you are being close minded and ignorant to the fact that your equipment has little to do with your game.

Bullpuckey! When have you ever seen a good craftsman that didn't care about his tools? Good craftsman (be they photographers, artists, architects, golfers, etc.) care about their tools.

how was ben hogan one of the greatest golfers of all time?
-and i knoooowww some smarta** is going to say "well he had bladed irons". maybe true. but they didnt know about swing plane, and weighted clubs and shafts and grips and golfballs nearly like we do today.

That's not even germane to the topic. Give Ben Hogan a mixed set of off-the-rack clubs and he wouldn't have played as well as he did. No doubt about it.

The clubs don't have to know about the swing plane, but Ben Hogan sure as heck knew about is clubs!!!

This sums it up pretty well:
The point everyone is trying to make, is that player's irons in general will force you to become a better player because you won't be able to make bad contact nearly as often.
If you hit the sweet spot every time with game improvement irons, and you can shape the ball, it's not going to make a big difference. However, if you do use player's irons you don't really have the option of missing, and as such they encourage better contact. Game improvement irons tend to mask the shots that aren't as solid, and as such can allow you to slip off your game a little.

Yup.

[ragontona]

I don't know how long this thread's been going on, but I'm considering making a switch to some ultra-game improvement irons.

After years of playing with forged Titleist cavity backs of some sort, I'm thinking about making a switch to some Nike Ignite irons. Why? Because I just don't get out much anymore. If I'm lucky, I'll play 8-10 rounds this year.

I'm thinking I wanna make the game as easy on me as I can for these sporadic rounds, because frankly, I'm not gonna have the time to devote to the game.

I understand that this'll lead to a sloppier swing, etc. But heck, I'm paying to play golf -- I might as well enjoy it with some forgiving equipment.

[mRogers88]

it still just seems completely retarded.

i keep going back to music and it has nothing to do with golf, but i feel the music training ive recieved over the years is one of hte best life lessons ive ever had the pleasure of experiencing.

why would it make sense, to play/use a product that is way over your head? unless maryland is in another universe, I am pretty sure working your way up is the way to get better. Not putting better products in your hands.

a Nikon D-80 wont make you any better of a photographer than a Nikon coolpix point and shoot. You need to know how to use the lenses and the ligting and techniques and angles that will produce a quality photograph. And even at that, a great photographer can take a breathtaking photograph with a 6megapixel point and shoot.

a gibson les paul will certainly help and enhance a great guitar players skills and abilities. but put a gibson les paul in the hands of an amateur hes still going to be an amateur and will always be an amatuer untill he practices and learns chords and scales and transtions within the music hes playing.

sure a corvette with a manual transmission is fast as hell. what if you cant drive a stick?? the corvette isnt going to teach you.

people are arguing the fact that players irons are within the same ballpark. if your a shitty player, you will continue to be a shitty player no matter what clubs you use and how long you use them. and to say otherwise is niave and pointless. the only thing a players iron will give you that is different than any other iron is room to progress. but that doesnt neccesarily say one wont progress with a cavity backed/game improvement iron.

the title game improvement is actually a HUGE misnomer. because though the club may be more forgiving, the ball goes where you aim it. and if you come over the top you will slice the ball, and if you come from the inside you will infact hit a fade. putting the clubs in your hand wont do anything different for your game. it just makes mis hits towards the toe or heel less wasted.

the idea of a 'players' iron vs. a 'game improvement' is the same idea as like.. commission vs. salary.

commission being a players iron, gives you what you put into your work. plain and simple.

salary, you work, regardless of good/bad/poor/average work, you will always get the same outcome.

but with that commission job, if you dont work your ass off you sure as hell ain't gettn paid.

[babywax]

I don't think you're coming from the same angle.

The person who isn't a low handicapper who gets a players iron is looking for clubs that will let him know whenever he makes a mistake, no matter what. This, for some people, helps them to get better faster.

Of course you can get better, and even to the level of a professional player with game improvement irons. It's a difference in how someone wants to do it, and what players irons do is force you to get better. Game improvement irons don't do that as much, so for the person who is basing their swing upon results won't necessarily know if he hits it a little off the sweet spot.

That's the idea, that with a players iron you know when you make a mistake and exactly how you made it, thereby improving your swing. They don't directly make you better, but they do require you to get better.

[mRogers88]

makes sense.

[cyclistgolfer]

What I havent heard anybody say in this thread is fitting...correct me if I am wrong but, getting properly fitted is probably one of the most important things you need to do when choosing clubs. To this point, most game improvement irons can not be bent the way a good forged iron can.

I purchased a set of Titliest 690 cb about 8 months ago all standard off the rack. My game suffered due to one, from playing at least once a week I dropped my playing time to once every couple of weeks and 2 I did not get the irons fitted to me. BTW I am a 19 handicap who vows to improve and do what ever it takes. 2 weeks ago I had my irons properly fitted to my swing, 5 whopping degrees flatter than when I bought it (try that with a game improvement iron). This week I beat all 3 of my golfing buddies who has been playing for at least a decade before I ever picked up a club.

I think that a properly fitted players club will is the way to go

[PingZing2]

What I havent heard anybody say in this thread is fitting...correct me if I am wrong but, getting properly fitted is probably one of the most important things you need to do when choosing clubs. To this point, most game improvement irons can not be bent the way a good forged iron can.

+1 Clubs that are set for your swing can make a huge difference in how fast your progress with your irons.

[InTheTwenties]

I've played both. Staring out I was a twenty-ish handicapper. I played with GI irons for about 4 years. I took some lessons, got fitted and now have player irons with some GI qualities: perimeter weighting.

I love it. I like the feed back that player irons give me. I makes me a better player. More determined. Better impact, better feel and that sweet click on a great shot.

My point is that GI irons should be a means to an end; a way to get better. You play GI irons to get better, so that you can play a high caliber of irons later. That was my plan and I stuck to it and now I have to change my screen name to InTheTeens instead of InTheTwenties. (alluding to my handicap index).

So, play what you have. Get better. Then be a player.


.

[iacas]

it still just seems completely retarded.

Be reasonable. Let's avoid calling things "retarded," okay? C'mon...

i keep going back to music and it has nothing to do with golf, but i feel the music training ive recieved over the years is one of hte best life lessons ive ever had the pleasure of experiencing.

Music has little to do with golf in terms of instruments, and yet - as I said - the professionals and better "players" always appreciate their tools. A Stradivarius wouldn't sell for millions of dollars if the players that want them couldn't tell the difference between its sound and the sound of a $400 violin.

why would it make sense, to play/use a product that is way over your head? unless maryland is in another universe, I am pretty sure working your way up is the way to get better. Not putting better products in your hands.

Perhaps that's how you work, but try this on for size: I became a single digit golfer inside of two years. My clubs? Muscleback forged Nicklaus/MacGregor irons. They FORCED me to make better ball contact.

Granted, I played just about every day and was committed to the process of improving. They probably wouldn't have worked in the hands of someone who played three times per month. They'd have simply been frustrating.

a Nikon D-80 wont make you any better of a photographer than a Nikon coolpix point and shoot. You need to know how to use the lenses and the ligting and techniques and angles that will produce a quality photograph. And even at that, a great photographer can take a breathtaking photograph with a 6megapixel point and shoot.

True to an extent, but there are a lot of things you simply can NOT do with a "point and shoot" that you can do with a DSLR. Like, for starters, CHANGE LENSES. Or get a really small aperture. Or adjust the ISO. Or accurately set shutter speeds. There are a lot of photos I've taken even in the past week that simply could not have been achieved with a point-and-shoot.

A good photographer can get a good picture with any camera, but it's not just an oddity that they spend $3k to $8k on the camera body alone, and triple that (or more) on the lenses. My tripod cost more than most point-and-shoots.

Again, craftsmen appreciate their tools. I would not be able to play as well as I do with game-improvement irons. It'd be far too easy to slip into bad habits.

a gibson les paul will certainly help and enhance a great guitar players skills and abilities. but put a gibson les paul in the hands of an amateur hes still going to be an amateur and will always be an amatuer untill he practices and learns chords and scales and transtions within the music hes playing.

That's where the music analogy falls apart. An amateur CAN tell the difference between a "players" iron and a "game improvement" iron. The first will not compensate for poor contact very much.

sure a corvette with a manual transmission is fast as hell. what if you cant drive a stick?? the corvette isnt going to teach you.

That applies even less than the music analogies.

people are arguing the fact that players irons are within the same ballpark. if your a shitty player, you will continue to be a shitty player no matter what clubs you use and how long you use them.

Huh? So there's no hope unless you're already good? People are only responding to what you're saying, and frankly, it's not making much sense.

With the right mindset, I think using "better" irons than you can help you to improve. I would play WORSE (and have) with more game improvement irons. That's fact, and that's the way it is for some kinds of people.

the title game improvement is actually a HUGE misnomer. because though the club may be more forgiving, the ball goes where you aim it. and if you come over the top you will slice the ball, and if you come from the inside you will infact hit a fade.

You can come over the top and pull the ball too. I know a 3-handicapper who plays a pull as his primary shot.

And coming from the inside rarely results in a fade. You'll block it or hook it.

the idea of a 'players' iron vs. a 'game improvement' is the same idea as like.. commission vs. salary.

Another very bad analogy.

Further reading for those interested:
t=1358 (http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358)
t=4402 (http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4402)
t=2412 (http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2412)

[PingZing2]

Iacas

I think you are better off saving your wrists from carpal tunnel. There are some people that are always right, no matter what facts are presented.

[iacas]

I think you are better off saving your wrists from carpal tunnel. There are some people that are always right, no matter what facts are presented.

You may be right. I just don't like "bad" opinions to exist unchallenged in case someone who doesn't know better reads it and believes it.

[mRogers88]

lol im just pretty sure hes hell bent on proving me wrong which wont work because hes on the inside looking out.

i guess, im sorry?, that my 'analogies' dont make sense to you. that might mean your close minded. i dont know.

you basically opposed every viewpoint i brought up, and stated an apparent reason to why my idea was wrong. but your reasoning makes no sense to me. just as my reasoning for everything makes no sense to you. maybe its the age and generation difference? im willing to bet your quite the bit seasoned yes?

ok.

agreed to disagree.

[iacas]

lol im just pretty sure hes hell bent on proving me wrong which wont work because hes on the inside looking out.

On the inside of what? Did you read where I said I started my career in golf (having played two whole rounds with rented clubs previously) with muscle-back, forged irons?

i guess, im sorry?, that my 'analogies' dont make sense to you. that might mean your close minded. i dont know.

Now I'm close-minded and apparently just too dumb to get your analogies? Perhaps they're just bad analogies? C'mon dude, cut the bologna.

Look at it from my perspective: what possible insight could a guy with a "20-ish" index really provide on "getting better"?

From one of your earlier posts, you talk about working the ball like it's a way to make money? Huh? It's how you play better golf. It's how you score. It's how you get out of trouble.

you basically opposed every viewpoint i brought up, and stated an apparent reason to why my idea was wrong. but your reasoning makes no sense to me. just as my reasoning for everything makes no sense to you. maybe its the age and generation difference? im willing to bet your quite the bit seasoned yes?

My age is in my profile. I'm 29. So no... I'm not "quite seasoned." I disagreed with your points because I disagree with them or because they don't seem to make much sense.

I'm going to close the thread now because it's wandering off-topic, but again, I encourage you to read these threads, mRogers, for more discussion:
t=1358 (http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358)
t=4402 (http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4402)
t=2412 (http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2412)

[Lemay427]

Here is something that has been beaten to death but I might have a different spin to it. Right now I play RAC Lt's with Rifle 6.0. I am a solid 8-10 handicap. I have heard people say that they feel playing a forged iron gives them solid feedback on what they are doing with their golf shots and swing. Has anyone felt that playing a forged iron has aided in making them a better player? I can hit forged irons but see no reason to get a new set if It wont help my game. I have been looking at the MP60 and 32 (mixing a set), the CB and MB from Titileist, Nike forged, Taylormade forged (forgot model).

Has anyone felt that the forged irons have helped there game?

[GoFlyers]

Helped there game... naw, that isn't going to happen. A shaft that fits your swing will have a ton more effect then the difference in forged/cast.
The head is a personal preference. I play and have played forged heads for years but even my new KZG Evolutions do not feel that much different then my old Tour Cavity Pro's that were cast stainless steel. I have swung some cast clubs that I didn't like the feel of but I think it would be a strech to say that could effect my swing. The only exception may... and I say may be distance control on feel shots from about 60 yards in. The bigger feel difference to me is the Rifle vs. the TT shaft...

[Lemay427]

when i say effecting the swing i didnt mean the heads do, i meant that you can sometimes get some feedback with your swing if you have a club that isnt as forgiving. my shafts were fitted for my swing as well.

[GoFlyers]

If you are trying to talk yourself into / justify a new set of forged irons... I would go with the added feel on the touch shots... :-D
There are some bad cast heads out there but your are not talking about those. You are talking about a nice set of TM's. I like the MP's better because they are forged and I am a Miz fan... but that is a personal prefence. I also know that last year I lost a match to a guy playing RAC's... I hate when that happens. The bigger diference in the two sets of clubs is the sole width. The TM's and wider then the MP's. You may want to look at that more so then if they are forged or cast.
Either way... it is really hard to go wrong.

[beung]

Well I would say that feedback isn't felt until you actually hit the ball so the only thing that clubs that give better feedback will do is help you to learn what a certain shot feels like.

I also play RAC LTs and I am about the same handicap is you. I would say that the clubs give little feedback bacause there is so much forgiveness built into them that a really good shot doesn't feel much different then an ok or even a good bad shot. You would have to hit a pretty bad shot to really feel the difference in the shot if you couldn't see the shot outcome. I too am looking to upgrade my clubs but I will say that the riflle 6.0 are a great shaft.

At my current platue in my game I would say the change in irons isn't really going to lower my srokes. Improved shortgame, putting and better decisions should get me down to 5-6 but I will tell you that there were rounds last year that I was on route to being 2-3 over but when it came down to an important shot I had no confidence in my irons which resulted in me limping along waiting for the 18th hole to come before I had more oppertunities to damage my score. Anytime I break 80 I know I gave some strokes away because I had uncertaincy in what my iron shot was going to do. Confidence plays a big part of how the shot turns out and if you don't have it on your equipement then you can't put a good stroke on the ball.

So I think a club that gives good feed back will improve your game at a mid to lower handicap. I spend alot of time at the range working on shots and no I don't have the prefect repeatable swing but there is alot to be said when you can feel a bad shot and not just see that it went 10 yrd shorter or went way farther left then the last 3-4 shots you just hit.

I tried the MP-32 and the 67 and for some reason I hit the 67 better then the 32s. I did try the 60s but they didn't feel that much different then my LTs.

[Lemay427]

ya distance control seems to be my main concern at this point.

[iacas]

Before I get any further, please, visit any of these threads for a discussion. We've had this discussion before (as recently as last week):

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358
http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4402
http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2412

Helped there game... naw, that isn't going to happen. A shaft that fits your swing will have a ton more effect then the difference in forged/cast.

Gotta disagree there, particularly if you're talking about using the same shafts or similar shafts in completely different sets of irons (heads).

I have swung some cast clubs that I didn't like the feel of but I think it would be a strech to say that could effect my swing.

I think your analysis of this discussion is a little shallow. Please see the other threads for more.

I can't - and won't - play a cavity-back/game-improvement club because they tend to lead to the decline of my swing. I need the reinforcement and feedback a forged/muscleback provides.

I can easily tell the difference.


I would say that the clubs give little feedback bacause there is so much forgiveness built into them that a really good shot doesn't feel much different then an ok or even a good bad shot.

Exactly. And if you're like me, you don't enjoy that "everything feels the same" feeling and you want more feedback so you can improve.

But again, people:
http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358
http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4402
http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2412

[GoFlyers]

iacas,

First off I am new here (and not looking to get banned) and by looking at your sig line and number of post… I am guessing this is your site. So, I am not trying to piss you off but…
The truth of the matter is that in the online world people get their rocks off by being Pro V1 / Forged Iron / Advice Giving – golf snobs. Now understand, I play KZG forged irons with Rifle Project X shafts and am a member of a club… so I am all those things but I never think that because I prefer forged over cast that everyone else should.
I also KNOW that what is going on between a person ears is a thousand times more important then what is at the end of his shaft. I also KNOW that the physics part of the contact between the ball and two identical shaped clubheads one being cast with a hardness of 241 brinell and the other being forged with a hardness of 241 brinell will have a equal vibration from an off center contact.
30 years ago manufacturing a casting resulted in the end product having air pockets while a forged product, because the process involved ‘hammering’ out the air pockets was much more solid. 30 years ago a cast piece of steel 1x1x1 weighed less then a forged piece of steel 1x1x1. With the technology increases in the past 30 years these gaps are just about all but obsolete.
Today you have many clubheads of the same shape processed both ways. There are cast blades and there are forged cavity backs… so even tho you may think it is shallow I KNOW that just because there are previous post stating the contrary… they are factually incorrect.
The reason people feel the way they do goes back to what is between there ears. When you look down are you confident that you have the correct tool in your hand for the job? I will agree that the shape of the heads have a huge impact on how the club ‘feels’ on different hits as does type of material (various stainless steels, low carbon steel, and alloy steel) and hardness of the material… but it is shape/grade/hardness related NOT metal processing related (cast/forged).

I can go on and list a couple dozen more points but I just want to mention one last point. You mention a decline in your swing because of lack of feedback from the club. Couldn’t that be fixed as easily as using a simple impact aid while at the practice range? I have forged clubs and still use an impact aid because I want to know exactly where I contact every shot.

I do not mean to be argumentative here and I absolutely do not want you to back off with any future challenges… I just had to defend myself against your rebuttal… ;-)

[Toad]

Interesting discussion thus far.

I would like to add something...specificly about 'feel'. I currently play a set of Mizuno MP-60's. With these irons back to my first set of blades (MP-14's back when I could play)...I can honestly say the reason I gave up cast clubs is the feel at impact.

Now I will readily admit...the last set of cast clubs I played were a set of copper Zing's...which I thought were the cats meow at the time. I understand alot probably has changed in cast vs. forged since those days. I also admit I dont have any experience with modern cast clubs. I am a Mizuno man and see no need to change at this point.

Still though...with a forged iron...I can hit a shot and instantly KNOW what its going to do based on that feeling at impact. I honestly can tell you if I pulled off the fade or if I fanned it or hit it high or low etc JUST by the feel at impact and not looking at the shot at all. I believe this feedback has been VERY beneficial to my development as a player. I know very well where I am hitting the ball on the club face.

I can feel without question when I am swinging well. The latest example of this was just the other day. I snuck out before work for a quick nine. I hit a few balls on the range at the club before getting out. A few wedges, a few 8 irons, a few 5 irons then I hit 3 3irons (number 1 is a 3 iron tee for me). That morning I hit everything pretty good. My wedges were good...the 8 and 5 were solid but a wee bit thin and low...the 3 irons...each one of them were absolutely nutted. All three were that gushy soft mushy explode off the face, cant even hear the ball impact sweetness that only seems to occur on forged clubs. I knew right there on the first 3 iron we were in the zone...the 2nd and third were just cause it felt good. My iron play all round was astoundingly good...and fortunately for me I made some putts. I shot a 32 that front nine. For a 7/8 handicap thats pretty damn good.

Reading this you may think I am making a case for forged over cast. That is not my intention. I think GoFlyers nailed it when he said "I also KNOW that what is going on between a person ears is a thousand times more important then what is at the end of his shaft." Those 3 iron shots on the range set the tone for that round. I have spent ALOT of time blowing the rust off my game from a 4 year layoff. I spent quite a bit of money and time to get what is in my mind the ultimate set of irons for me (still working on the woods =)). It all came together...I felt that 'click' and in my mind I was unstoppable.

In summation...play what you like. Play what gives you confidence. Play what gives you the results you are after. Golf IS a mental game...of course their are physical aspects to it...but the heart of this game is between your ears. The question I ALWAYS ask myself, in regards to equipment or most anything else is "How does it feel?". If it feels right...it gives me confidence. When I have confidence I feel that click...when I feel that click I am going to play VERY well.

[iacas]

I never think that because I prefer forged over cast that everyone else should.

Nobody here is behaving in that way.

I also KNOW that what is going on between a person ears is a thousand times more important then what is at the end of his shaft.

A thousand may be overstating it, and factoring in mental issues in yet another "cavity versus forged" isn't really on topic.

I also KNOW that the physics part of the contact between the ball and two identical shaped clubheads one being cast with a hardness of 241 brinell and the other being forged with a hardness of 241 brinell will have a equal vibration from an off center contact.

The bigger picture is that we're looking at "muscleback" or "players" irons versus "game improvement" irons. The latter tend to be cavity back, the former forged.

You'll get no argument from me here that an identically built club feels pretty much exactly the same whether it's cast or forged, but this debate goes beyond that.

There are cast blades and there are forged cavity backs… so even tho you may think it is shallow I KNOW that just because there are previous post stating the contrary… they are factually incorrect.

They're not factually incorrect. Nobody has said "all cavity backs are cast" (or the opposite). Had they, I'd be right there with you. Hell, Titleist has a few forged cavity backs.

But that's the subtle nature of this discussion. It's not a question of simply "should I get this clubhead in forged or cast." If that were the question, the answer should be "get whichever is cheaper because they'll behave the same."

I can go on and list a couple dozen more points but I just want to mention one last point. You mention a decline in your swing because of lack of feedback from the club. Couldn’t that be fixed as easily as using a simple impact aid while at the practice range?

No, it could not. You don't really seem to grasp what I was saying, nor the psychology. If I mis-hit a shot 5% with a forged players club, I know it but don't pay much of a penalty. If I mis-hit a shot 10% with a game-improvement club, I might not notice and I might not pay any penalty. It'd feel and behave the same - or very close to the same - as a perfect shot.

So, an "impact aid" (I still don't know what you mean by that - impact tape? an impact bag? what?) is only somewhat helpful, and certainly only helpful in practice. Much of golf requires in-round adjustments of a very subtle nature, and many of the golf shots you hit in a round can't be replicated on the range.

Still though...with a forged iron...I can hit a shot and instantly KNOW what its going to do based on that feeling at impact. I honestly can tell you if I pulled off the fade or if I fanned it or hit it high or low etc JUST by the feel at impact and not looking at the shot at all. I believe this feedback has been VERY beneficial to my development as a player. I know very well where I am hitting the ball on the club face.

Correct. I feel the same way. Replace "forged" with "players" (some Mizunos have a tiny cavity back, but they're not exactly game-improvement clubs either) and I think you're spot on.

I'll conclude by saying this: the original poster is not just contemplating a switch from cast to forged. He is, as I hinted at earlier, contemplating a switch from "game improvement" to "players" irons which, again, is often where the line between cast and forged is drawn.

So I think the title of the thread may be misleading people a bit. Cast and forged, there's really very little difference these days. Cast came about to create some of the crazy GI shapes we've seen, and forged is still very cost effective for simpler clubheads seen in "players" irons.

Again, I encourage you to pick up some of the other threads I'll list again, as they already contain this debate:

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1358
http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4402
http://thesandtrap.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2412

[NM Golf]

This topic has been beat to death on this forum but for good reason everyone has their own opinion. Golf is played between the ears. If you think you play better because you play forged blades because they "force" you to hit the ball in the center of the club head, then you probably do play better because of them. Golf is mental. I play against some very good players. The irons they use are from forged blades to extreme game improvement. I know a +1 handicap who is a hell of a player that plays Nike slingshot irons. He himself is not into worrying about whether he is hitting it solidly or not, he only worries about where its going. He wants his off center shots to go as straight as possible. That works for him. The forged blade guys I know are more technical they are seemingly always tinkering with their swings, that works for them. I, myself am more in the middle. I like a little feedback so I know where I am hitting it but I know I will mishit the ball several times a round and I need some forgiveness so those mishits don't cost me too much. So basically you have to figure out for yourself what type of player you are, and go from there.

[allin]

iacas,

First off I am new here (and not looking to get banned) and by looking at your sig line and number of post… I am guessing this is your site. So, I am not trying to piss you off but…
The truth of the matter is that in the online world people get their rocks off by being Pro V1 / Forged Iron / Advice Giving – golf snobs. Now understand, I play KZG forged irons with Rifle Project X shafts and am a member of a club… so I am all those things but I never think that because I prefer forged over cast that everyone else should.
I also KNOW that what is going on between a person ears is a thousand times more important then what is at the end of his shaft. I also KNOW that the physics part of the contact between the ball and two identical shaped clubheads one being cast with a hardness of 241 brinell and the other being forged with a hardness of 241 brinell will have a equal vibration from an off center contact.
30 years ago manufacturing a casting resulted in the end product having air pockets while a forged product, because the process involved ‘hammering’ out the air pockets was much more solid. 30 years ago a cast piece of steel 1x1x1 weighed less then a forged piece of steel 1x1x1. With the technology increases in the past 30 years these gaps are just about all but obsolete.
Today you have many clubheads of the same shape processed both ways. There are cast blades and there are forged cavity backs… so even tho you may think it is shallow I KNOW that just because there are previous post stating the contrary… they are factually incorrect.
The reason people feel the way they do goes back to what is between there ears. When you look down are you confident that you have the correct tool in your hand for the job? I will agree that the shape of the heads have a huge impact on how the club ‘feels’ on different hits as does type of material (various stainless steels, low carbon steel, and alloy steel) and hardness of the material… but it is shape/grade/hardness related NOT metal processing related (cast/forged).

I can go on and list a couple dozen more points but I just want to mention one last point. You mention a decline in your swing because of lack of feedback from the club. Couldn’t that be fixed as easily as using a simple impact aid while at the practice range? I have forged clubs and still use an impact aid because I want to know exactly where I contact every shot.

I do not mean to be argumentative here and I absolutely do not want you to back off with any future challenges… I just had to defend myself against your rebuttal… ;-)

Some good points, after all the shaft has a tremendous impact on feel as well. Even the type of grip and glove you choose. It has been proven with putters that sound has a large impact on perceived feel. I concede that the style of clubhead MB or clubs with smaller CB have more of the mass near the center of the club, also forged clubs tend to have narrower soles, and less offset, cleaner looks. Since these are factors better players tend to prefer they may prefer forged clubs. I play a cast club that migrates somewhat towards that end of the spectrum, and I do notice increased feel and workability compared to my previous super game improvement set. It would be interesting to compare cast and forged clubs with identical shapes made from material as similar as possible. Especially two muscle back clubs?

[CG031]

I use cavity backs. Once I get down to a 10-15 handicap I'm going to get some real nice blades or more workable irons when I don't need the forgiveness as much.

[shinujk1]

now using the R7 TPs and do not miss hitting the blades (MP32s before)....actually there's a heated discussion in another topic about whether bogey golfers in general should be playing blades.....what are all your thoughts given a lot of the people here that have replied seem to be single digit handicap.... check out topic MP60s vs R7 TPs

[asianpsuation]

dont worry shinujk1 i was only angry on the Mp-60 R7-TP thread cuz i thought u were off topic, no hard feelings. anyways i think that blades should be reserved for stronger players who have no problems with pure ball striking. Blades do not go farther, its that they're more workable. Thats not something i think a 12+ handicapper needs in general.

[fusioncal]

You know, if in doubt you could always choose cavity blade, which I did when I bought Mizuno MP-60 last week. Could've chosen MP-32 or MP-67, but I didn't because I like MP-60 model better, literally. Yeap, I bought MP-60 only as a collection, but perhaps someday I'll use them. ;-)


now using the R7 TPs and do not miss hitting the blades (MP32s before)....actually there's a heated discussion in another topic about whether bogey golfers in general should be playing blades.....what are all your thoughts given a lot of the people here that have replied seem to be single digit handicap.... check out topic MP60s vs R7 TPs

Technically, MP-60 is better used by player with 10 handicap or less. But if a bogey golfer choose to use it, well it's their choice, their clubs, their game and their money. Hope this will cool down the heat ;-)

[lamebums]

I like the look of blades, too - but after playing with my buddy's blades and hitting a 1 iron seriously on the toe (a painful experience), I was pretty much sold on cavity backs. Unless you have an excellent tempo, swing path, and can consistently deliver the ball to the same spot on the clubface each time, there's little to no point in getting a less forgiving club. You're just setting yourself up for more shots left short and off-line.

I myself probably have the iron play of a 5, rather than the 15-20 I am (putting really sucks), but there's no way I would go to blades. What's the point of deliberately hitting the club on the toe and watch it only travel 120 yards? There's also the factor that a toe hit will go much less offline with a cavity back than a blade.

[mybloodinvt]

i play cavity backs. blades require a level of ball striking precision that i do not possess. i would consider a set of blended irons, ie, cavity back long and mid-irons, and blades in the short irons, 735 cm's for instance.

[outrider2288]

i hit the G5s and love them, but then again i have always hit a cavity back. i like mybloodinvt's idea of using the cavtiy backs in the long irons and blades in the shorter irons

[kbnymets]

Hi there
Just joined...interesting question. I've played for thirty-five years, and probably play to about ten. I use blades, Mizuno TP9 and Wilson FG49. I love the look and the feel. I was forced to use a set of Callaway's once. They look like spades, and feel like nothing, but boy are they easy to use. If I had the money, I suppose I'd go for a set of game-improvement forgings by Titleist or Mizuno, but I just can't imagine becoming the owner of a set of irons as ugly as Callaway's...even if they do make golf simple. Give me a ball that spins, and a club that transmits something to you when you swing. And if you want to strike the ball in the centre more frequently, get lessons and practice! But I do use a hybrid...replaces the four/five wood...love it.

[The Bogey Man]

I've played blades since I was in high school, and I was about a 18 handicap then. Now just getting back into the game more, I still prefer my blades over cavity backs. I really think it is just a preference of opinion. My father who is a PGA Golf Pro has said blades aren't as tough as people make them to be. Yes cavity backs are more forgiving, but I find really no difference between the two. I personally like the feel of the blades better... Just my 2 cents.

[solid_ONE]

blades are supposed to give you "controll," but if you can't controll the ball using blade, why use them? Your obviously playing with the wrong set in the blades if you are having trouble with getting GIR, but have no trouble with cavity-backs.

Go with the cavity-backs.

[tigerwoo]

I have played with blades for past 8 years with a model that has been copied by other golf brands out there because it was truly the benchmark club when it first came out. The Mizuno MP29 was what I had in my bag up until about a month ago. Tiger Woods used these clubs all throughout his Stanford days when he was not paid to play certain brand names. When he joined Nike after he turned pro he made Nike make a set of irons for him that was essentially a copy of the Mizuno MP29's he was so use to hitting.

Anyways, I'm no Tiger Woods... though I do call myself 'Tigerwoo' (a joke on my ethnicity more than my golf game) and so I made the decision to go cavity back recently because technology has improved so much in recent times and has allowed companies to make cavity backs that are of forged nature or allow the use mixed metals soft enough to 'feel' forged. Add to that the forgiveness of the perimeter weighting and a larger sweet spot with cavity backs and all you have to do is swing without feeling like you have to be so dead on precise with a blade in your hand.

I was also not posting scores in the 70's like I use to... and I was slowly replacing my 2, 3 and 4 irons with hybrids that were easier to hit but not necessarily easier to control. My accuracy with these hybrids weren't really what I liked over traditional irons. So there was definitely a compromise. So I wasn't losing any distance for missing the sweet spot but I was missing a little left or right of the green.

So I did some research and found myself what I think is a very good blade replacement... Cleveland CG4's. Been out on the range a few times and just took them out for the real test drive yesterday on a course. I have to say that the feel of these clubs are almost blade-like to the point that I really can't notice the difference or perhaps I don't notice because I am so impressed with how the ball flies after being hit. I didn't miss once with these clubs distance wise... and accuracy was very good if not equal with my Mizuno's. Mind you this is only after 1 round on the course. But besides that, I have also gained 5 to 10 yards with these clubs most likely due to their stronger lofts and of course hitting them more on the sweet spot which is larger to begin with. I recall a shot that I hit yesterday from 195 yards out. A slight tail wind behind me that was maybe 5 yards... I hit my new CG4 6 iron on the green to within 15 feet for a very good birdie opp. Made the putt...

Anyways, I could go on and on about these 'cavity back' clubs as I hit them solid all day yesterday.

All I can say is that I am looking forward to hitting in the 70's again, real soon!

My beloved Mizuno's served me well... but it's time to move on.

[sandtrap]

So I did some research and found myself what I think is a true gem in some Cleveland CG4's. Been out on the range a few times and just took them out for the real test drive yesterday on a course. The feel of these clubs are almost blade-like to the point that I really can't notice or don't because I am so impressed with how they strike the ball. I didn't miss with these clubs distance wise... and accuracy was very good if not better than my Mizuno's. Mind you this is only after 1 round on the course. But besides that, I have also gained 5 to 10 yards with these clubs most likely due to their stronger lofts and of course hitting them more on the sweet spot which is larger to begin with. I recall a shot that I hit yesterday from 195 yards out. A slight tail wind behind me that was maybe 5 yards... I hit my new CG4 6 iron on the green to within 15 feet for a very good birdie opp. Made the putt...

The cg4's seem to be doing better after they were discontinued than they did when they were the current model.
I just put 2 of my beginning golfer coworkers into them. After they hit them against almost every other brand golf galaxy had. Nice stix and at $400 or less they are a steal.

[tigerwoo]

Talk about a steal... I got my CG4's for under $300 on eBay. Brand new and shrink wrapped!

I cannot say enough about them right now... perhaps they are more popular now after the Golf Digest Hotlist gave them a Silver medal. That's how I decided on purchasing them.

With so many clubs out there... I can see how many good clubs go unnoticed.

[TheSuperCaddy]

i use cleveland cg2 which have a blade like profile but are still cavity backs. Forged and cast cavity backs are what the pros are using, becasue I did see Sean O'hare last Week at Winged Foot and im pretty sure he uses the r7 tp irons, which are cavity back. Oh and for the person up above me, i got my cg2 irons for 290 at rockbottomgolf Brand new in box.

[AndrewM]

As I was coming up through the golf world in HS and through college... My goal was to play blades. I thought just having them in my bag would make me a better player. I went from Ping ISI-k's to a Mizuno progressive set, and was I ever happy, great feel, especially around the green and much more pleasing to the eye... I was about a 4 at that point.

Fast forward 3 years and I was trying my hand at mini tours... I noticed that A LOT of players were hitting callaway irons... so i tried a set... less than a week later I swapped out my mizunos for callaways... I was carrying a "handicap" of +4 at that point. I immediately noticed a difference in ball flight (higher) and forgiveness... and since my main goal is to hit the damn thing straight, those were exactly the things I needed. And since working the ball is a function of the blade being open or closed, you can work the ball just as much with a cavity back as a blade.

IMHO, anyone that isnt making millions playing the game is doing themselves a disservice playing blades if their goal is to play their best. If there goal is to play with challenging equipment that is more traditional, with the understanding that their equipment could cost them strokes, then blades it is :)

btw: slightly off topic, but I also believe most players shouldnt carry over a 6 iron. Hybrids these days are so easy to hit and effective from different lies, that they make long irons obsolete. Personally, I carry the original Taylor Made Rescue mids (circa 2002), i use my 21* for 220 and my 25* at around 205.... Could I hit a long iron that far, probably not, and surely not as consistently as I hit those hybrids, especially with the spin and height I get out of them.

[TheSuperCaddy]

In my opinion, I dont think that Cast or Forged is better. It all depends on how you hit the ball. But, i do hit cleveland cg2 irons, which i am almost positive that cleveland only uses cast. Its really the only way they make the metal i think, and imo there is no better. You can still work the ball with cast irons. Pros would not be using the cg1s or the r7 tp irons if they couldnt work the ball. Its all preference. My Cg2s are extremely soft feeling even though they are cast, but cleveland are kind of almost in the forged zone of irons.

[iacas]

In my opinion, I dont think that Cast or Forged is better. It all depends on how you hit the ball. But, i do hit cleveland cg2 irons, which i am almost positive that cleveland only uses cast. Its really the only way they make the metal i think, and imo there is no better. You can still work the ball with cast irons. Pros would not be using the cg1s or the r7 tp irons if they couldnt work the ball. Its all preference. My Cg2s are extremely soft feeling even though they are cast, but cleveland are kind of almost in the forged zone of irons.
The discussion of "cast versus forged" is often better phrased as "cavity back versus muscleback." That's what people typically mean.

Yes, cast versus forged is just how the clubs are formed.

[Manystyles]

Wow. Funny, I was at my local golfsmith store and I was talking to the clerk and he was raving about his forged irons. Sadly, I still play the same set I had in High School (Ping Eye 2's) :-P and whenever I try to make the change to forged Irons or even to a new set of pings my game simply goes in the tank. I guess I've played with the same set for so long I'm just addicted to it......

although I would agree with iacas, if your goal is to really improve your game, you want the irons that offer the most feedback, which in turn gives you the best, no frills assesment of your game. I think this is where he feels the debate "bottoms out". Some are happy playing game improvement clubs but he would rather get the best feel and feedback to improve his game.

If I'm wrong, please, correct me.

Me? I don't even keep score most of the time now. I Ty Webb it.

[TheSuperCaddy]

k thanks iacas

[rCOLD37]

Hi, I just joined...But anyways, I have played golf for a few years now and I have always used cavity backs because they are more forgiving. I play casually and usually shoot in the mid-high 80's. I had a question of my own- I was wondering which irons to buy the callaway x-20's, fusions, or fusion wide soles. Ebay has all of them, for great deals and I was just looking for some advice. Thanks.

[getinthehole]

Cavity backs, I am nowhere near skilled enough to use blades. :-P

[fusioncal]

Hi, I just joined...But anyways, I have played golf for a few years now and I have always used cavity backs because they are more forgiving. I play casually and usually shoot in the mid-high 80's. I had a question of my own- I was wondering which irons to buy the callaway x-20's, fusions, or fusion wide soles. Ebay has all of them, for great deals and I was just looking for some advice. Thanks.

Fusion! Golf Digest Gold Medalist 3 years in a row. ;-)

Because I use it and you should too. Just joking. It's just that I personally think they're really good. Easy to hit and not big sized like other game improvement irons.

[tigerwoo]

I just came back from a golf trip where I played 3 rounds of golf in 7 days. All I can say is that I shot 77, 78, 79 using my new Cleveland CG4 'cavity back' irons. Just a month ago I was golfing with my Mizuno MP29's that I have had for the past 8 years. I have NEVER shot 3 straight rounds in the 70's EVER. I know that I had mishit at least a half a dozen shots during those 3 rounds and these irons just didn't miss as much as my Mizuno's. In fact, I don't think I lost more than 5 yards of distance on those mishits and I certainly didn't miss much of the green thereby allowing me a 'chance' to save par. With the Mizuno's those misses would have translated to at least 10 yards and more dispersion from the green. The three rounds have helped lower my handicap index by 1.5. I was a 9.5 a week ago and now I am an 8.

Anyways, I am a firm believer of playing with the 'right' cavity backs. Research and choose wisely and you will be rewarded. Without the help on those half a dozen shots... my score would have likely been in the 80's. Not that scoring in the 80's is bad... I was just tired of not improving for so long.

[iacas]

I just came back from a golf trip where I played 3 rounds of golf in 7 days. All I can say is that I shot 77, 78, 79 using my new Cleveland CG4 'cavity back' irons. Just a month ago I was golfing with my Mizuno MP29's that I have had for the past 8 years. I have NEVER shot 3 straight rounds in the 70's EVER. I know that I had mishit at least a half a dozen shots during those 3 rounds and these irons just didn't miss as much as my Mizuno's. In fact, I don't think I lost more than 5 yards of distance on those mishits and I certainly didn't miss much of the green thereby allowing me a 'chance' to save par. With the Mizuno's those misses would have translated to at least 10 yards and more dispersion from the green. The three rounds have helped lower my handicap index by 1.5. I was a 9.5 a week ago and now I am an 8.

Anyways, I am a firm believer of playing with the 'right' cavity backs. Research and choose wisely and you will be rewarded. Without the help on those half a dozen shots... my score would have likely been in the 80's. Not that scoring in the 80's is bad... I was just tired of not improving for so long.
I can switch to a "forgiving" cavity-back type club and hit some good golf shots too and shoot some good scores. Temporarily.

The problem I've had is staying at the same level, making good swings, hitting the ball consistently well. The less forgiving clubs, in addition to having a greater feel (and thus a greater reward for a nutted shot), do more to keep me hitting good shots.

Less forgiving clubs don't punish being sloppy.

[tigerwoo]

I can switch to a "forgiving" cavity-back type club and hit some good golf shots too and shoot some good scores. Temporarily.

The problem I've had is staying at the same level, making good swings, hitting the ball consistently well. The less forgiving clubs, in addition to having a greater feel (and thus a greater reward for a nutted shot), do more to keep me hitting good shots.

Less forgiving clubs don't punish being sloppy.

I understand where you are going with your statement completely. In fact, because I had my blades for so long I think what they did for me was refine my swing and make it a little tighter. I had no choice! I could not afford to be 'loose' with my swing hitting my blade long irons that looked like a pea pod at the end of the shaft. But my main reason I decided to go 'more forgiving' was because I lack the practice/playing time I use to get before I married and had a child (I've averaged 20 rounds/year for the past 3 years as opposed to my 40-50/year pre-marriage/kids).

Hopefully these cavity back sticks will help me post some good scores regularly. I only hope I don't regress and go back to a more loose swing which would then fuel the purchase of 'Maximum Game Improvement Irons'! ;-)

[Franco!]

Blades.

I've always had amazing skill with my irons.

someone told me to try blades instead of cavity backs, because i dont need the forgiveness as much as an average golfer.

i went to a demo with titleist recently and i tried their blades and i started hitting shots that i never thought i could hit.

fades and draws were so much easier and i started hitting shots that were right at the green on the range.

only if i could afford them! B-)

[ChiChiIsMe]

Currently I play old Blades and am in the market for a new set of Irons........now I just need to figure out what to get.

[fusioncal]

Blades.

I've always had amazing skill with my irons.

someone told me to try blades instead of cavity backs, because i dont need the forgiveness as much as an average golfer.

i went to a demo with titleist recently and i tried their blades and i started hitting shots that i never thought i could hit.

fades and draws were so much easier and i started hitting shots that were right at the green on the range.

only if i could afford them! B-)

Of course you could! Just look for pre-owned blades iron. Generally, blade irons are cheaper than hi-tech multi materials game improvement irons.

Currently I play old Blades and am in the market for a new set of Irons........now I just need to figure out what to get.

Well, there's a lot of choices. If you love the feel of using blades I suggest you try Titleist and Mizuno.

[ChiChiIsMe]

Well, there's a lot of choices. If you love the feel of using blades I suggest you try Titleist and Mizuno.

I'm leaning towards the Titleist 735's currently, do have Mizunos on the radar tho......

[Franco!]

Of course you could! Just look for pre-owned blades iron. Generally, blade irons are cheaper than hi-tech multi materials game improvement irons.


well, im 16 and i lack one of those job things (ew. working)

i just want to get them for senior year in high school.

so im nice and ready for college golf.

then off to the PGA tour.

then off to rape tiger in the world rankings. :-P

[vitesse10]

Something to consider, I was reading the "Club Test" issue of Golf Magazine and in it they mentioned the approximate percentage of PGA Players still playing true "Blades". The overwhelming percentage of PGA Professionals play Cavity Back Irons. They made the statement to the effect, that if the best players in the world choose to play cavity backs, perhaps it would be a good idea for us regular folks to follow their lead.

True, many of the pros are not using blades anymore. One of the reasons for this is marketing. People want to buy what they see the pros hit on TV. But most players know that they cant hit blades, so the club manufacturers want the pros hitting with clubs that that a 10-20 handicap player can also use.

[alleghenyman]

I am a rank amateur but I play 40 year old MacGregor blades and I'm able to hit them straight. I'm not able to play the ball like a pro but I can get the job done. I could upgrade but I'd rather save money and work out any bad habits rather than mask them with forgiving clubs.

[c_mack9]

i play cavity backs right now but im hoping to get my swing straightened out and upgrade in a year or 2. i dont see myself ever playing blades because i would rather hit a straight ball instead of shaping my shots. i will probabaly end up with some nice game improvement irons when im ready to upgrade.

[Lahey]

blades no questions asked

[golfbarefoot]

Blades, absolutely.. and I have hit so many kinds of irons, and always go back to blades. (been using my 690.MB forged blades for 3 years solid now)

While I truly believe Drivers, balls, shafts and grooves on irons have improved immensely, I'm just not sold on the whole cavity back thing.

The improvements are so minuscule... especially for a good ball striker unlike the other technologies I mentioned, those are definitely an advantage.

[buildem-n-swingem]

cavitys all the way for me

[jon_allsopp85]

i play with maxfli revolution (black dot) irons and they are sweet! i like them because i get a nice crisp strike and can maneuver the ball like im using blades, they do give some forgiveness as cavity back irons do tho. so i think iv got the best of both.
my next set of irons will be blades. better looking, better maneuverability (draw/fade) and accuracy. (in my opinion!)

[jhauser77]

I'm switching from Nike Pro Combos to Titleist 690 MB today. I found some barely used 690 at Play it again sports and I'm trading in my irons and ignite driver and 3 wood. I believe after all I've read, to be a better player you have to play with the better player equipment.

[jhauser77]

I am a rank amateur but I play 40 year old MacGregor blades and I'm able to hit them straight. I'm not able to play the ball like a pro but I can get the job done. I could upgrade but I'd rather save money and work out any bad habits rather than mask them with forgiving clubs.

There's good sense here too. Also I believe this subject comes down to what you learned on.

I learned to play with some old Top Flite Spalding blades (no musclebacks, Like the Greg Norman ones). And I have missed those with every set of clubs I've had since.

[jhauser77]

Ok I got them.
I tried them at range and they feel sweet. Need new grips though. Cut shots are perfect, the sweet spot is sweet as I said. I'll play them tomorrow for the real test. I think I lost a few yards on the long irons. That just means I have to take extra club I guess.

I'm going to stick to the theory that better clubs make you a better player.

It's the same with the guitar. If you want to learn to play the guitar, buy a good guitar that will make better.

[Miller]

I like blades, i just think if you hit them back, the shot is awful
i have Hogan small cavity backs, i really like them, easy to hit

[Big Lex]

A few observations...

1. I play cavity backs, and always have.
2. I don't think it makes a huge difference, overall, in scoring; and the differences are probably smaller and less significant the _higher_ your handicap is.
3. It _does_ make a huge difference in your shots.
4. It doesn't make the same difference with all lofts.
5. It's more than the cavity back that is "game improvement" in the game improvement irons.

Explanations...

1. Just habit. I want every possible advantage. I did play a sort-of blade in Henry Griffitts for a few years, and they didn't make my handicap change compared to other cavities I've played.
2. A miss is as good as a mile. There is a big difference in shot results, as more forgiving clubs give you more distance, more carry, and less curvature on your mis-hit shots. But unless you are a mid to low single digit player, your misses are pretty big anyway, and the game improvement features can't completely compensate. So, if you hit a fat shot with an open face, you will end up 10 yards short right with the cavity back, and maybe 20 yards short right with the blade. Depending on where the hazards are, sometimes a _bigger_ miss is better... Like the other guy said, I think guys who are competing, and are scratch or better players, they are giving something up by not playing with clubs that are somewhat forgiving. But that's not accounting for differences in trajectory, the ability to curve shots, etc., which is the alleged reason that experts sometimes prefer blades.
4. The benefits of cavity backs are highest with the mid and long irons. When you have lots of loft on the club, the amount of twisting you get on mis-hit shots is much less than with strong lofted clubs, so the increased MoI of cavity back clubs is less important. However, as I said, there are other game improvement features used in irons, such as more bounce, better sole design, etc., and if you are a mid to high handicapper, you may find that blades hurt your results more than simply in the twisting on off-center hits. For this reason, if you like the "players" look of wedges like the Vokeys, the Clevelands, or the Callaway tour wedges, don't think you have to be a 4 handicap to use them. But make sure you get the right amount of bounce for the courses you play.

Just my opinion.

[Leek]

My hdcp hovers between 4 and 7. I mishit 90% of my shots. I need the forgiveness.

[centerbum]

I have a relatively high handicap, but I just got a set of Cleveland CG1 blades in replacing an older set of Cobra cavity back clubs. The CG1's are amazing! I don't think I will ever go back to cavity backs. I personally want to know when I mis hit a shot, which my old clubs wouldn't tell me.

Do yourself a favor and go try out the CG1's!

[Leek]

I have a relatively high handicap, but I just got a set of Cleveland CG1 blades in replacing an older set of Cobra cavity back clubs. The CG1's are amazing! I don't think I will ever go back to cavity backs. I personally want to know when I mis hit a shot, which my old clubs wouldn't tell me.

Do yourself a favor and go try out the CG1's!

Just curious. How are you scoring, better, worse or the same?

[Terps]

Blades

Taylor Made RAC MB

[boodaboy16]

The CG1s look nice. I just went back to my TA1 blades. I love the thin topline and zero offset. Blades seem to help me keep my swing smooth and they are just plain fun to hit. For me, unless I pure a shot (or come real close) I don't feel I deserve a good outcome. The fun of the game for me is not the final score but how I got there.

[centerbum]

Just curious. How are you scoring, better, worse or the same?

I went out and used them in a round for the first time this past weekend. And I matched my career best. The look and feel of them inspires confidence that I didn't have with my cavity backs. They are definitely more fun to hit. I'm hoping as I get more used to them, my score will continue to impove.

[bluenar9]

Hey guys, new to the board but I am a forum nerd so I'm glad I found a good golf forum...

I am in the market for a new set of irons. Right now I've got a set of... God I don't even know... I think they're Dunlops? Anyway they're 6 years old, cavity backs, got them for my 16th birthday (I'm 22 now) and they've treated me well. But... a couple of things have changed since then:
1) At about 18 I became an actively-training athlete and since then my build has changed significantly.
2) Since I received the clubs, I've grown like... three inches.
3) I'm a big boy now and I've got a real job in the 'business world,' where everyone plays golf. And, now that I've got the big boy income I can afford better clubs.
4) I NEED to beat my father ;)

I think I've justified my decision for a new set of irons, no? haha

Things y'all should know to help me decide:
--I've been playing since I was 12: very hardcore from 12-15, VERY casual from 15-20, and now I've started playing pretty regularly again (during the summers).
--Handicap is somewhere between a 12 and 20, depending on the time of year haha. (It seems like after each winter I have to re-learn everything)
--My iron swing is very consistent and I've been told I have a great swing by a Senior PGA Tour candidate (I'm not saying this to brag, but it may affect the decision between cavities and blades?)

So what do you guys recommend for me? I'd like to stay below $700, which should be a fine budget.

Thanks in advance :)

[jhauser77]

In my humble opinion, (always listen to an opinion and then decide for youself)
I'm a 12 and I traded in my Nike Pro Combos for Titleist 690 blades.
All that has changed is that I look cooler... to me.

I've shot 12, 12, and 13 (who thought a pond in front of the green was a good idea?) over my first three rounds with my 690's.

Buy clubs that feel good and gives you confidence and buy the clubs that you want. Don't settle on something. You'll just think about those clubs you really wanted every time you miss-hit.

buy barely used (ebay). Save some money that way. With the money you saved, re-grip them with a good comfortable grip, then get the lie angel adjusted for your height, and take a few lessons (If Tiger needs a swing coach then we're never too good for a lesson).

Buy a name brand. And a name brand that makes you look like a golfer. It plays a head game with your competitor.

Don't buy iron head covers. Those are obvious novice.

I still haven't proved it, but my theory is that if you hit with blades, you'll get better feedback and over time you will become a better ball striker.

[TaylorMadeStud]

Definately cavity backs. Sure you may not be able to work the ball as well, but the forgiveness definately goes to cavity backs. But, if you are a stud player unlike me, you dont need forgiveness.

[wachesawgolfer]

Probably depends where you are in your game. If your content to play a few times a week or less and stay somewhat competitive cavity backs are the way to go. If you cannot hit greens in regulation and hit woods and hybrids alot instead of 3 and 4 irons, as second shots and play mid to higher irons mostly, blade or cavity back is not much of an issue. If you are striving to improve your stroke and ball contact, at the expense of feedback, ie., more errant shots on occasion, blades are a good way to go.

The real issue to me is what club you use for 200 yards. Is it a 3 or 4 iron or a wood. Clearly, most people I see playing may be able to hit a blade 6 or 7 well but cannot hit any 3 iron well no matter what type it is. I like to play blades but my set usually is a 5 thru PW, so how tough is that over a player's cavity, probably not that much, but it helps keep my swing clean.

[bluenar9]

Well my fairway woods used to be my best clubs, but now I prefer to hit my 3 or 4 iron when faced with 200+ yards to the green, even if it means coming up short. I am just more comfortable with my long irons than with my fairway woods (i.e. I never use my fairway woods lol).

I am a casual player but I've been playing for 10 years (22 years old now) and my game has been off and on, mainly due to changes in physical form (went from obese at 16 years old to hobbyist bodybuilder, currently) so my swing has changed a bunch over the years. It's still pretty consistent though.

[jon_allsopp85]

hi all,

my maxfli's are looking a bit damaged now, but they've served me well!
so im currently looking to buy some new irons (blades)

either...

cleveland gc1 (chrome)
titleist 695mb
mizuno mp-33

which would you say is best?

[bluenar9]

So I went to the shop yesterday and I started hitting the Mizuno MP-32 and the MX-25.
Blade vs. cavity back.
I'd never hit a blade before, and now I know what people mean when they say that they're unforgiving. All of my hits with the MP-32 seemed clean, but the ball would fade or draw slightly, and if I had used the same swing on the MX-25 it would be straight as an arrow. Very interesting. BUT... I did love the look of the blade at address, and I loved the feel of the swing and the contact with the ball. I'll be upgrading to blades as soon as my swing is ready for it.

Then the guy told me to try the Cleveland CG Golds, which I hadn't done research on, and were apparently cavity backs with inserts and they were in between a blade and a cavity back in terms of "forgiveness." I tried them and they felt beautiful. I hit about 20 balls with them and even though my mis-hits were fading or drawing slightly there wasn't much distance loss. Anyway I bought the set and I really like them so far, but I'm going to go to the range tonight to test 'em out.

[fusioncal]

So I went to the shop yesterday and I started hitting the Mizuno MP-32 and the MX-25.
Blade vs. cavity back.
I'd never hit a blade before, and now I know what people mean when they say that they're unforgiving. All of my hits with the MP-32 seemed clean, but the ball would fade or draw slightly, and if I had used the same swing on the MX-25 it would be straight as an arrow. Very interesting. BUT... I did love the look of the blade at address, and I loved the feel of the swing and the contact with the ball. I'll be upgrading to blades as soon as my swing is ready for it.

Then the guy told me to try the Cleveland CG Golds, which I hadn't done research on, and were apparently cavity backs with inserts and they were in between a blade and a cavity back in terms of "forgiveness." I tried them and they felt beautiful. I hit about 20 balls with them and even though my mis-hits were fading or drawing slightly there wasn't much distance loss. Anyway I bought the set and I really like them so far, but I'm going to go to the range tonight to test 'em out.

The look at address, the feel of your swing, and the contact with the ball, these are what accomplished golfers looking for in blades.

Blades vs Cavity Back = Feel vs Forgiveness

I can't believe you picked Cleveland over Mizuno. Just so you know, MX-25 is forged and CG Gold isn't. Plus, nothing feels like a Mizuno. :-)

[Leek]

So I went to the shop yesterday and I started hitting the Mizuno MP-32 and the MX-25.
Blade vs. cavity back.
I'd never hit a blade before, and now I know what people mean when they say that they're unforgiving. All of my hits with the MP-32 seemed clean, but the ball would fade or draw slightly, and if I had used the same swing on the MX-25 it would be straight as an arrow. Very interesting. BUT... I did love the look of the blade at address, and I loved the feel of the swing and the contact with the ball. I'll be upgrading to blades as soon as my swing is ready for it.

Then the guy told me to try the Cleveland CG Golds, which I hadn't done research on, and were apparently cavity backs with inserts and they were in between a blade and a cavity back in terms of "forgiveness." I tried them and they felt beautiful. I hit about 20 balls with them and even though my mis-hits were fading or drawing slightly there wasn't much distance loss. Anyway I bought the set and I really like them so far, but I'm going to go to the range tonight to test 'em out.

Apples vs. Oranges

While I am a Cleveland fan, these clubs don't belong in this discussion. Also, MX 25s are a game improvement cavity. The MP60, Titleist 695 CB are more indicative of this thread.

[bluenar9]

The look at address, the feel of your swing, and the contact with the ball, these are what accomplished golfers looking for in blades.

Blades vs Cavity Back = Feel vs Forgiveness

I can't believe you picked Cleveland over Mizuno. Just so you know, MX-25 is forged and CG Gold isn't. Plus, nothing feels like a Mizuno. :-)

Well, I swung on a mat and the feel was really nice for the Clevelands, and they were cheaper. I've had them at the grass range twice now and although they're still okay, they don't feel as good as on the mats. I think I'm going to see if I can return them and check out the MX-25's or the MP-60s but this time take a loaner set out. I guess I got a little excited :)

[King Cobra II]

When would you all say you're "good enough" for blades. I by no means feel like I'm there, or even close, but it is something that interests me. I mean you can't just go by handicap index could you? You could have a great short game, which takes away strokes, but your iron play may not be top notch. Would you go by how accuratly far you hit cavity's/in comination with handicap?
Edit: What are some nice set of blades? What are some of the mid range priced blades?
I know that I'm not good enough to hit blades on the course, but what about someone buying used blades, and hitting them at the range, and then playing cavitys. From what i've gathered, hitting blades will give you more feedback ,so it'd be perfect to use at the range until you improve. Im considering buying some used blades, I really dont care about the condition to much if there not to e xpensive. Could i get some for 200? Say 5-7 years old?

[boodaboy16]

I think the feedback issue is really key. I don't think there is a magic number for a handicapp cutoff to use blades. I think if you are good enough to make adjustments in your swing when you mishit, then blades might be a good option. If not, you might get frustrated. Honestly, I hit my Cleveland TA1 blades better than any club I've ever hit. I bought mine used off Ebay for $250. When playing muscle backs, you have to pay attention to impact and follow through the hitting zone smoother with blades.

[TaylorMadeStud]

feedback is totally better on blades

[Gregoire]

hi all,

my maxfli's are looking a bit damaged now, but they've served me well!
so im currently looking to buy some new irons (blades)

either...

cleveland gc1 (chrome)
titleist 695mb
mizuno mp-33

which would you say is best?

I'm a 4 handicap and am debating whether it's even worth trying blades. And you're a 17 and are dead set on them....??? Maybe you should try to work on getting a mroe consistent swing and maybe break 85 once in a while before buying the least forgiving irons on the market?

[williethekid]

I would think the mp-67 are more comprable to the 695mb's.

[fusioncal]

Well, I swung on a mat and the feel was really nice for the Clevelands, and they were cheaper. I've had them at the grass range twice now and although they're still okay, they don't feel as good as on the mats. I think I'm going to see if I can return them and check out the MX-25's or the MP-60s but this time take a loaner set out. I guess I got a little excited :)

But don't take my word for it. If you hit Cleveland better than MX-25, by all means keep the CG Gold. But I'm guessing you'll like MX-25 better.

As far as MP-60 goes, do you honestly think you're good at ball striking? The reason why it felt good hitting off the mats is because even when you don't hit it pure or a little bit behind the ball, the mats will help to bounce off the club into hitting the ball. Off the grass, you'd be digging the turf and the distance will be greatly affected. Unless you're hitting pure shots (almost) all the time, I don't think MP-60 is a good option.


I think the feedback issue is really key. I don't think there is a magic number for a handicapp cutoff to use blades. I think if you are good enough to make adjustments in your swing when you mishit, then blades might be a good option. If not, you might get frustrated. Honestly, I hit my Cleveland TA1 blades better than any club I've ever hit. I bought mine used off Ebay for $250. When playing muscle backs, you have to pay attention to impact and follow through the hitting zone smoother with blades.

I definitely agree with you. Handicap isn't a cutoff to determine whether someone should or should not be using blades. A friend of mine who's a handicap 20 is superior with irons, but has problems with short game and putting. Regardless to what everyone says, he switched to MP-32 2 months ago. Now he dropped to handicap 12, not because he switched to MP-32, but because he's improving his putting and short game. The only reason why he picked blades is because he loves the feel and feedback of a player's iron.

So whenever someone's saying,"you're this handicap and you should not be using blades, etc. etc." I don't buy that. It all depends. :-)

[Elsfan]

I play the black cg1, same club as Vijay Singh. I actually find these clubs easier to handle then my previous cavity backs. I hit them just as long, have no issues with accuracy and can even shape them which I had no chance with the older cavity backs. My handicap is what it is primarily because of my short game. Anytime I have less then a club to the green I can struggle. Full shots are butter though even better then the Cb"s. I have found that I hit the ball a little longer with these clubs. I play a 9 iron from about 145 today and flew the green into the wind from that distance. It was like a 155 carry. I hit the 3 iron about 220 consistently with no wind and that is plenty of distance with that club. When you hit them right, boy it feels great.

[Oliver C. Porkman III]

New to the board so why not jump into the discussion. I have been playing golf seriously for 7 years. Before that once a year was playing alot. I have been playing CB's (TM LCG's great clubs, TM 320's, Titlelist 504 CB's) but I have just got a set of Titlelist 690 MB's. Much more accuate and the mishits are no worse then the CB's. If you are a solid ball striker don't be afraid of the MB's. Just shot an 82 and the MB's responded very well. One bad hit with them for the round.

[tigerwoo]

I've posted here before about a week after I switched over from blades to cavity backs wondering if I had made the right move. Well, I have now played 12 rounds since owning cavity backs and I have dropped my handicap index from 10.3 to 6.9. I've posted 6 rounds in the 70's and all 6 rounds in the 80's have been 82's for some odd reason. Of those 6 rounds, I'd say 3 of them were really in the 70's as my tee to green play was very good but my putter let me down on several occasions... nine 3 putts in 3 rounds.

[Oliver C. Porkman III]

I've posted here before about a week after I switched over from blades to cavity backs wondering if I had made the right move. Well, I have now played 12 rounds since owning cavity backs and I have dropped my handicap index from 10.3 to 6.9. I've posted 6 rounds in the 70's and all 6 rounds in the 80's have been 82's for some odd reason. Of those 6 rounds, I'd say 3 of them were really in the 70's as my tee to green play was very good but my putter let me down on several occasions... nine 3 putts in 3 rounds.

No your rounds were in the 80's period. You can't say oh my putter let me down hence I really would have shot in the 70's. My handicapp has gone from 7.5-10.9 all playing with cavity backs after struglling with my cavity backs I switched to blades my handicap has drop from 10.9 to 10.2 in the first month using the blades. I find the 690 mb's to be the most solid feeling club I have hit. More distance higher ball flight and more accuracy. All the things that the club shops say you'll give up if you try them.

[Oliver C. Porkman III]

I'm a 4 handicap and am debating whether it's even worth trying blades. And you're a 17 and are dead set on them....??? Maybe you should try to work on getting a mroe consistent swing and maybe break 85 once in a while before buying the least forgiving irons on the market?

I'd agree that a 17 handicapp probably doesn't have consintent ball striking ability. But in your case I think you may have bought into what I believe is a myth that blades are only for scratch golfers. I have played about 6-7 rounds with the 690 mb's and have found the mishits to be no worse then with the cavity backs except the feed back is immediate and not very pleasant. The ball flight is no worse with either however. I'd suggest that you get a cheap set on Ebay and give them a try.

[Oliver C. Porkman III]

Well, I swung on a mat and the feel was really nice for the Clevelands, and they were cheaper. I've had them at the grass range twice now and although they're still okay, they don't feel as good as on the mats. I think I'm going to see if I can return them and check out the MX-25's or the MP-60s but this time take a loaner set out. I guess I got a little excited :)

IMO I'd say don't judge any club particularly irons by hitting them on mats. A sledge hammer would feel great especially on a new mat.

[Oliver C. Porkman III]

Why not mix your set, MP-67 down low and the MP-60 up on top? great feel in the scoring irons and a little ease on the long ones.


Good suggestion I use the blades 5-PW for scoring irons basically for me 170 yards in and hybrids for distance shots.

[tigerwoo]

No your rounds were in the 80's period. You can't say oh my putter let me down hence I really would have shot in the 70's. My handicapp has gone from 7.5-10.9 all playing with cavity backs after struglling with my cavity backs I switched to blades my handicap has drop from 10.9 to 10.2 in the first month using the blades. I find the 690 mb's to be the most solid feeling club I have hit. More distance higher ball flight and more accuracy. All the things that the club shops say you'll give up if you try them.

No I certainly agree with your statement... I actually hate it when guys say 'shoulda woulda coulda'... there is nothing more irritating. What I meant by what I said was really to illustrate the fact that my ball striking since owning cavity backs have been better and that my tee to green play during some of my rounds in the 80's were more like play in the 70's. My actual score was what it was... no excuses. My iron play was solid... my putting was not. Just my response to how much more cavity backs have helped my game.

[Golf4life]

those of you that have a low handicap and like blades, consider the 67's.:beer:

:mizuno:

[Oliver C. Porkman III]

No I certainly agree with your statement... I actually hate it when guys say 'shoulda woulda coulda'... there is nothing more irritating. What I meant by what I said was really to illustrate the fact that my ball striking since owning cavity backs have been better and that my tee to green play during some of my rounds in the 80's were more like play in the 70's. My actual score was what it was... no excuses. My iron play was solid... my putting was not. Just my response to how much more cavity backs have helped my game.

Fair enough I see what your saying. As long as were on pet peives I think I'll start a thread on handicapps.................

[Oliver C. Porkman III]

No I certainly agree with your statement... I actually hate it when guys say 'shoulda woulda coulda'... there is nothing more irritating. What I meant by what I said was really to illustrate the fact that my ball striking since owning cavity backs have been better and that my tee to green play during some of my rounds in the 80's were more like play in the 70's. My actual score was what it was... no excuses. My iron play was solid... my putting was not. Just my response to how much more cavity backs have helped my game.

those of you that have a low handicap and like blades, consider the 67's.:beer:

:mizuno:

Just curious what do you consider a low handicapp?

[23Rounder]

I love the feel of perfectly hit shot with a blade but am simply not a good enough player to use them. I prefer blade wedges though rather than the cavity back PW and SW that come in a lot of lower end sets.

[golfbarefoot]

"Such a pure feeling is a well struck golf shot"

And there is nothing better than ball striking with my Forged Blades.

I'll put it to you this way. I was blown away when Titleist changed the design in the '07 Titleist 695.MB's with the cut muscle thing. They do not make my model the 690.MB which i personally want to play until i die.

I went so far as to buy another almost new 690.MB set that was only played 3 times for my backup set to ensure I will always play this model and I can give this set of 690's I currently play to my baby boy way down the road. I have only had these for 3 1/2 years.

Now that is loving some irons..forged blade irons that is..

I grew up with them and so will my son..there is a reason why the best ball strikers always use blades...

[J_Bone]

Another pro has started to use cavity backs and he has been closer to the leader board since the switch.....Camilo is now using these.. (http://www.cobragolf.com/irons/details.asp?id=5)

[Kellfire]

Am I right in saying my Eye2+ are up there as one of the original cavity backs?

I'm a beginner, so I need the forgiveness of a cavity back. I've never really played blades though.

[Golf4life]

Just curious what do you consider a low handicapp?

10 and under... if you're going to get blades, it's for the intent to really be able to work the ball, not just to have pretty clubs. :-D
I'm currently shopping for a backup set, more than likely will be mp-60's which are cavity forged.

[getinthehole]

Definately cavity backs for me thanks. 25 handicap not too likely to be able to hit blades well. :-P

[Leek]

10 and under... if you're going to get blades, it's for the intent to really be able to work the ball, not just to have pretty clubs. :-D
I'm currently shopping for a backup set, more than likely will be mp-60's which are cavity forged.

I think they can also be good for a mid handicapper who is willing to put in the work to become a better ball striker. Forged clubs aid that.

[golfbarefoot]

I totally agree Leek.

[Terrier]

Followed the leaders on River Hills at the Hooters event.

None were playing blades. Only the best ballstrikers play blades. And the best ballstrikers don't always score the best....or make the cut.

Only posters on the internet play blades.

[Jack_2251]

What is the classification for a blade. How do you tell (by look) what is a blade. Are my 755's blades?

[TourSpoon]

Followed the leaders on River Hills at the Hooters event.

None were playing blades. Only the best ballstrikers play blades. And the best ballstrikers don't always score the best....or make the cut.

Only posters on the internet play blades.

I also see a lot of combinations out there with cavity 3-6 and then blades 7-W. This gives you a reasonable combination to benefit from both. For the most part, I would choose a good players cavity back (heck, I am still playing the original 845s that Freddy and Davis debuted back in the early 90s).

[golfbarefoot]

This post is comical.

Originally Posted by Terrier View Post
Followed the leaders on River Hills at the Hooters event.

None were playing blades. Only the best ballstrikers play blades. And the best ballstrikers don't always score the best....or make the cut.

Only posters on the internet play blades.

Well since the hooter tour players were not playing blades..I'm selling my set tomorrow, and hope everyone else does too. I also hope the golf manufacturers quit producing them too so Tiger and everyone has to stop hitting too. I especially admire the wisdom in the second part

Only the best ballstrikers play blades. And the best ballstrikers don't always score the best....or make the cut.

say what?!?

LOL!