Thrash Talk: Negatives of Golf

[Thrash13]

First off, golf is the greatest game on Earth. That being said, it doesn't come without its negatives. I have been thinking of some negatives for quite some time, and I felt like writing a Thrash Talk dealing with them this week since the PGA Tour is on a short break.

I'll just leave you with a simple question to get some discussion going. Be sure to read Thrash Talk in the morning, as I'm sure there will be some disagreements.

Also, if this has been posted before, I apologize. I did some searches and couldn't find anything.

1. What is the biggest negative in golf?

[NCGolfer]

Cheating.

I'll classify it as two different kinds. First is the obvious. Cheating in tournaments especially by sandbagging. To me this is a huge negative and I hate seeing guys shoot net 62's when it should be nearly (statistically) impossible.

The second kind of cheating isn't as bad, but can be just as big a problem. This is what I would call "cheating yourself." Any time you pick up a 2 1/2 or 3 footer, roll the ball in the rough, or any other type of little advantage to any score you are going to post, you are cheating yourself. It will lower your handicap and give you a false sense of accomplishment. We all have that friend that says they are a 14 to 18 handicap when if they played in a sanctioned tournament would easily shoot in the mid to upper 90's.

Play it as it lies everyone...please. It will only help you and better your game. Don't cheat yourself.

[iacas]

Cheating.

Ditto. In fact, before I scrolled down to Dave's post, I'd composed nearly the exact same response in my head.

If I had to list others, they would be:

1. Pace of Play
2. Difficulty of acclimating a new player to the game (they're intimidated by how hard it is and all of the etiquette that goes along with it)
3. Pace of Play
4. It's fairly expensive
5. Pace of Play

[NM Golf]

Cheating.

I could not agree with you more. Sandbagging has gotten so bad at my club that most of the low handicappers including myself don't even play in most of the tournaments. What makes it worse is that the really bad ones are all on the tournament committee. They have even gone as far as to eliminate a gross winner in most of the tournaments. To give you an example, the winner of the last tournament shot a net 61, and it wasn't the first time he's done it. The handicap system was a good idea but unfortunately the cheaters have taken over.

[iacas]

I could not agree with you more. Sandbagging has gotten so bad at my club that most of the low handicappers including myself don't even play in most of the tournaments. What makes it worse is that the really bad ones are all on the tournament committee. They have even gone as far as to eliminate a gross winner in most of the tournaments. To give you an example, the winner of the last tournament shot a net 61, and it wasn't the first time he's done it. The handicap system was a good idea but unfortunately the cheaters have taken over.

Cheating of that nature is easy enough to fix (or at least begin to fix), though. The USGA has tables that show the probability of someone bettering their handicap by x strokes. That table is

found here on usga.org . I'm putting the words "handicap table" in this post just so I can search and find it again quickly later. So, "handicap table" again. Anyway, if par on your course is 71, the odds of someone shooting a 61 (-10) are: 00-05 handicap: 125,000 to 1 06-12 handicap: 84,300 to 1 13-21 handicap: 37,000 to 1 22-30 handicap: 1,650 to 1 >30 handicap: 874 to 1 The numbers don't improve much if par on your course is 70 (48,219, 27,877, 3,577, 695, 359). Many courses I know simply set the barometer at 100:1. If you shoot better than what the USGA feels are better than 100:1 odds, someone can lodge a complaint and you're removed from competition. 100:1 doesn't seem like much, but that's -4 (below handicap) for a 0-5 player, -4 for a 6-12, -5 for a 13-21, -6 for a 22-30, and -7 for a >30. A USGA handicap is supposed to measure one's potential as we all know, not someone's "average." So scores under par (net) are really unlikely as they're deemed to be someone exceeding their potential. Since the definition of potential really doesn't allow for "exceeding," that's why these odds are there (and so large in some instances).

[NM Golf]

Cheating of that nature is easy enough to fix (or at least begin to fix), though. The USGA has tables that show the probability of someone bettering their handicap by x strokes. That table is

Man you are preaching to the choir here, again I agree with you. The problem

lies (pun intended) in the fact that the offenders are currently running the show. It got so bad last year my father (a 4 Handicap) nearly got in a fistfight with the tournament chairperson over the unbelievable sandbagging. There just aren't enough low handicappers at my course to make enough of a stink to change whats going on. We have turned over the odds of those scores happening like you had right off the USGA webpage but when your handing them to the sandbagger himself you can imagine little changed. This coming year though we have enlisted the help of one of the pros and hopefully we can get some handicaps frozen.

[NM Golf]

On the other hand, the very term sandbagger may be part of the problem. It's a cutesy word that covers up the nature of the crime. We might be better off calling a spade a spade, meaning that anyone who intentionally establishes a falsely high handicap is a cheater, no more or less than the golfer who mismarks his ball on the green or foot-wedges it in the rough.

From

http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/sifting.html I think we should all take this advice.

[Rafcin]

From

The improvements suggested for the handicap comitee addresses only the "not-posting" cheaters. IMHO the MUCH bigger problem are people, who intentionally keep their scores high in meaningless situations. I've seen aholes 4-putt a hole once the nassau is won (usually on 9th and 18th green), or do some other stupid thing, that appears to be as innocent as OJ Simpson. This kind of behavior can't be fixed by closer monitoring of the posted scores.

I kind of like the tournament point system - at first look it sounds like a good dealhowever - it might work "the other way" too. What if you do play very well this year and your handicap is going down as fast as Paris Hilton... You won 2, 3 tournaments, your HCP goes down from 10 to 4... now in the club championship (at the end of the season) "they" are going to take extra 2 strokes off ? There is no win/win situation, someone might get hurt with or without it... Handicaps have major flow - they punishing better players. Why in golf all of sudden we turn into marxists and "all have to be equal" ???? Argument of people being "unable to compete otherwise" is stupid IMHO. It's not an argument - it's a fact. If you're unable - then don't compete. You don't see me challenge MJ for game of hoops or going $100 nassau against Tiger Woods and I'm not crying about it. I'm responsible for lack of skills and it's ONLY me. Not the "system". The only acceptable solution is flghted competition.

[Baynative]

Golf exposes the worst in people right away. Cheating is one of the frailest of moral failings. Ironically, cheating at golf is cheating YOURSELF!

I don't know how it can ever be fixed beyond just not playing with those you know to be dishonest. I like the 100:1 rule Eric posted.

Personally, I think posting scores from match play or stableford rounds should be done away with. I hear too many rumors of people taking extra putts when they are out of the hole or running up their score if the game is out of reach.

Clubs should have members turn in cards after rounds or at least check their starting sheets to see if everyone is posting. I know of at least one guy at my club who posts his 80's but "forgets" his 74's.

[Baynative]

I also have a gripe :

Weekenders or no handicap hot shots with NFL jerseys and their hats on backwards that insist on playing from the back tees when they probably can't play bogey golf.

On a busy course I would like to see a marshall on #1 that asks to see a current handicap of 5 or less if some one is putting a peg in the ground back at the black tee box. If they are under ten, blue tees are ok. If not, please play the whites. End of discussion!

[NM Golf]

The only acceptable solution is flghted competition.

Flighted competition is an alternative but you will still have cheaters. Guys that get into the third flight then shoot 75. As far as I can see there is little that can be done without putting a bulldog on the handicap committee who isn’t afraid to piss someone off by calling them a damn cheater. The whole thing is BULLSH*@! If you cannot compete without being given extra strokes then by all means GET BETTER! And when saying "extra strokes" I don’t mean the person with a correct handicap, I mean the sandbagger. Unfortunately it has gotten to a lot of us, myself included. I play well enough and so do most of the guys I play with that we should be scratch. I have shot under par or even par in several tournaments in the last couple of years. I carry the 3 because even when I played great I still got my ass kicked. I need the 3 just to think about competing. It’s sad because I have become the thing I hate the most.

[Ben]

Other:

Kind of lends itself to slow play, but I can't stand turdknockers that hit 180 yard drives, have 250 yards left into a hole and wait for the green to clear. Sheesh. "Come on 'Hogan', you just duffed a drive, you think you gonna reach?!?"

[cape cod beachfront golfer]

Slow play definitely would be the biggest issue.
BUT I do not agree with your comments re: playing through!
Showing up at the course in a twosome...
refusing to team up into a foursome...
then expecting all the rest of us to step aside...
so you can play through ! Sorry that is rude!

[Baynative]

One failure of this site is the inability to link replies back to the person you're talking to.

Just for the record, you're not disagreeing with me. I think that whiule foursomes should be courteous whenever possible, a twosome in between foursomes should be aware of what they have gotten themselves into and I put a lot of responsibility for that on the starter or proshop desk.

Too often they don't put enough effort in pairing up twosomes. I once called for a tee time in Palm Desert and was told, "We don't play twosomes until twilight times. If you don't have a foursome we'll pair you up or you'll have to wait until 1:00PM"

I think that's a fair policy and good business management too.

[kklick]

One failure of this site is the inability to link replies back to the person you're talking to.

You can quote back to the person you are replying to from any post in a paticular thread. Look in the bottom right hand corner of each reply and you'll see the quote and quick reply buttons. Click quote and you're all set.

[cape cod beachfront golfer]

You can quote back to the person you are replying to from any post in a paticular thread. Look in the bottom right hand corner of each reply and you'll see the quote and quick reply buttons. Click quote and you're all set.

I'm trying the "quote" button. Sorry if I replied to wrong person...

Handicap arguments are interesting... My usual 4 some tried a 1/2 handicap rule for skins play. Natural birdie wins over handicap aided birdie. Still there were hard feelings. We once had a guy with a reverse sandbagging problem... Never finished his BAD rounds... Only posted good scores. Had a 4-6 handicap but never came close to shooting that in tournament play! Made him so miserable no one would play with him!

[Snoogans]

The only negative I see is that I don't have enough time to play. :p

[Sando]

Slow play is the worst thing in a day-to-day round. For all the reasons mentioned above, plus those that insist on finishing that 4th putt for a 13. That guy is always in the foursome ahead of me. Pick it up already!

In tournament play, cheating is the worst. It's mostly ego driven. Cousin to the hacker who pulls a 9-iron for that 150 yard shot over water.