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Which hole *should* be the toughest?


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One of my favorite local courses has the worst 18th hole I've ever played. It's a 540 yard (blue) par 5 that you MUST make three *very* quality shots to have any chance of par. And, it's almost always into the wind. When you meet people that have played the course, they may not remember anything about it but THAT hole. I've never done better than triple on it.

I think having a monster for the 18th sucks. It looks hard, plays hard and if you get too serious will ruin your round. I think monsters should be in the middle of the round, not the first or last. I know I'm winging, but man that hole pisses me off.

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I've always thought the hardest hole on the golf course, or the one that could get you in the most trouble (aka for the Money Hole) should be somewhere between the 15th-17th, with the 18th a fairly easy hole open to scoring and big shots. (For example, TPC Sawgrass)

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The 18th hole should not be a stroke hole. The handicap of the last hole should not be high enough so that a close match is decided by one player being given a stroke off the card.

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The 18th hole should not be a stroke hole. The handicap of the last hole should not be high enough so that a close match is decided by one player being given a stroke off the card.

I disagree. It should be whatever it is. If one player has to give another player 10 strokes, it can matter (mostly psychologically) where those strokes fall, but it shouldn't.

Plus most handicap matches rarely get to the 18th hole, so is it fair that someone has to try to beat someone who gets those 10 handicap strokes in the first 16 holes?
One of my favorite local courses has the worst 18th hole I've ever played. It's a 540 yard (blue) par 5 that you MUST make three *very* quality shots to have any chance of par. And, it's almost always into the wind. When you meet people that have played the course, they may not remember anything about it but THAT hole. I've never done better than triple on it.

No offense intended by this, but 540 into the wind might not be a tough hole for a better player. Par fives give better players a chance to recover, and the better players at your club might like finishing on a "birdie hole."

Just saying: what's tough for you may not be tough for everyone. Also, let's not mistake the difference between "tough" and "handicap holes." Per-hole handicaps are supposed to be calculated based on where the higher handicapped player most likely needs a stroke. A 240-yard par three is often a very high handicap hole (like #17) because both scratch and bogey golfers likely make a lot of 4s there. A par five, on the other hand, gives the better player several chances to recover and the higher handicapper more opportunities to screw up. That's why par fives tend to be handicapped 1-4, par threes 15-18, and the par fours ranked somewhere in between. A short par four with lots of water - a good player will make birdie frequently, and a higher handicapper will make bogey. It's not a "tough" hole per se, but it can be the #4 or #7 handicap hole.
I think having a monster for the 18th sucks. It looks hard, plays hard and if you get too serious will ruin your round. I think monsters should be in the middle of the round, not the first or last. I know I'm winging, but man that hole pisses me off.

And again, from a low-handicapper's perspective, I like having par fives late in the round. Look at what happened at the U.S. Open. Or at Hoylake a few years ago.

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Par fives give better players a chance to recover, and the better players at your club might like finishing on a "birdie hole."

I absolutley love par 5's at any given chance, i find them my turn around points or opportunity chances. The course i normally plays starts with a par 5 on hole 1 for the front and on 10 for the back and the 18th as well is a par 5. Great for a good start/finish or rejuvinating your game!

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The 18th at my old course was a toughie. Really narrow tee surrounded by trees and a small target area for your tee shot, with a nasty bunker on the left side of the fairway. Then it was still almost 300yrds to bunkers about 50yrds out from the green. The green itself wasn't even tough, very flat and easily readable but it was a tough finish...

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When I first started playing (with a handicap of 36.x or higher), my home course used to kill me. No. 1 on Vanity Fair Golf & Tennis Club is a 540-yard par 5 that, for good players, is pretty easy, but for a sprayer can get tough. Also, the green is the stereotypical postage stamp.

As I got better, I realized I could score pretty well on that hole so long as I was properly warmed up.

My preference is for the 18th hole to be one of the five hardest holes on the course. I love the "big finish." Whether I do good or bad, having the 18th be memorable for its difficulty gives me a sense of closure to the round.

But it's not absolute: Vanity Fair's current layout puts the 18th hole somewhere around 11-14 on the HDCP scale, I forget where. It's the only hole with water but you really have to jack it silly to get into trouble. The hole is shorter than average, narrower than average, with a St. Andrews-style pot bunker fronting the green. It gives golfers a lot of options. It's become one of my 5-10 favorite golf holes in the world.

Working backwards from that hole, you have a par-4 (17th, one of the five hardest on the course), a par-3 (16th, arguably the easiest hole on the course) and a par-5 (15th, the longest hole on the course and not all that easy -- the only easy par-5 on this course is the 1st). The two holes behind that stretch, the 13th and 14th, are both long par-4s (the 13th is the hardest on the course and one of the hardest golf holes I've ever played). So from the 13th forward, you get an amazing variety of holes that culminates with something in-the-middle, difficulty-wise, but one in which you are completely in charge of your own score no matter what your ability level is.

Jess
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I like having a tough hole be the finishing hole. Something with a dogleg and either an island green or something where water is in play.
It creates drama and makes for an interesting finishing hole.

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I like having a tough hole be the finishing hole. Something with a dogleg and either an island green or something where water is in play.

Very good point - I'd agree with that. But there's a difference between that and like a hole described by the OP. Think the 16th at Firestone CC (625 yd Par 5, lake/trees directly in front of the green...that makes it interesting) without the lake and tress. Where it's just simply a very tough, straight-forward hole.

The 18th at the U.S. Open this year, with Tiger's second Iron shot, is a perfect example of a tough finishing hole, but an interesting one as well. If the green was 20 yards farther away and no water, it's just a long, tough hole.

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I disagree. It should be whatever it is. If one player has to give another player 10 strokes, it can matter (mostly psychologically) where those strokes fall, but it shouldn't.

I hear what you're saying. I understand we all have different skill levels and that I may enjoy the hole more as I get better. I've played several courses where the #1 handicap hole was easier for me than the # 10 handicap hole and it takes me a few rounds to figure out why (if I ever do). I also like Par 5s as well. I actually get more birdies on Par 5s than 3s (whatever that says about my game

) But this hole gives only the top %1 a chance to recover. It's three fairways separated by a wide snaking OB. You hit into the first fairway, then the second, then the third (mostly green). And I was wrong.. Blue tees are 560.. You can check it out here: Maybe it is just tough for us high handicappers... http://www.hookedongolf.com/callippe/ and look at the hole map for 18. Regardless of this particular hole, I still think that putting a tough hole at the end or beginning is a bad way to set up a course. IMHO a good course should be challenging and enjoyable for all levels if you are at the right Tees for your skill level. And, putting a difficult (vs challenging) hole (whether Par3,4,5) at 1 or 18 should be avoided. And yes, it ate my lunch again today. Much angst!
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My issue with finishing holes at many courses is not that they are too hard, but that they are invariably too easy.

I don't think a short sharp dogleg where a long player hits 7i off the tee is a fair or exciting finishing hole. I want to see drivers. It doesn't have to be a par 5, but it should be a long hole for whatever par it is, and every shot played should have a significant risk to avoid.

The reason I feel this way is that during tournament golf, I like to see players challenged on the last hole, either to make par or get the shot back with birdie. I don't want to see a whole which cannot be exploited by brilliance and which wont punish a poor shot.

Someone mentioned 18 at the US open, where I believe tiger found a fairway bunker off the tee, and may have had to contend with the water if he had hit the fairway. Great finishing hole.

I think that the disappointments we suffer during a round, or finishing a round are the things which should fuel us to come back for more. I know that when I triple the last to shoot 90, I cannot wait to get back and tee it up on that hole again. Pulling out a 4 to finish the round is much more rewarding when its on one of the harder holes.

To answer the question, the hardest hole on the course should be some where in the 6-7-8 holes, a place where you have eased into the round enough to be warmed up, and you will know by then what player is swinging the club that day. I think 15-16-17 is a logical choice but i would rather have three dificult holes presenting varying shot shapes and challenges and put the hardest hole on the front to help balance out the 9s.
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I like having a tough hole be the finishing hole. Something with a dogleg and either an island green or something where water is in play.

My 18th is a dog-leg left par 5, onto an island green. It 'can' be reached in 2 though, offering scoring opportunities (normally from a driver then 5 wood). However hitting in 2 from the rough is difficult and then an extra shot to lay-up is in order. Its an interesting finishing hole (plus it is the signature hole).

Personally, I think the toughest hole should be around the 15/16/17th. I have played a course where the toughest hole was the first: 600 plus yards dog-leg down into a gulley and then up onto a elevated green! And the other day I played a new (for me) course, where the marshal started me on number 10 (not the first unforunately). This turned out to be a tee shot across water, I guess about 180yard carry with winds .. not what I wanted to ease me into the round

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One of the courses I play reguarly has a 600yd par 5 on #18 with a 1 handicap... its no treat to say the least if you are playing for your all time low round. To make it even harder... the entire left side of the hole is lined with water. But, if you play it like you play any other hole and conentrate on a smooth drive (260 yds), a nice 3 wood (225 yds), it leaves you a very managable 115yds to the pin.

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I think that a golf architects are thinking about making the last couple of holes as one of the toughest on the course. This makes for exciting finishes and test to see who is playing well enough to deserve the win.

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I think that a golf architects are thinking about making the last couple of holes as one of the toughest on the course. This makes for exciting finishes and test to see who is playing well enough to deserve the win.

The architects should make the last 18 the toughest on the course,this makes for exciting rounds and a test to see who is playing well enough to win

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I think that the 18th should be a "swing" hole, that is one that can decide a match, or a round.

The 18th at my home course is long par 4 (440 yards), sharp dogleg left, with 2 bunkers sitting atop an 8 foot mound on the inside of the dogleg. It takes a 220 to 240 yard carry to clear the bunkers, but if you do, the hole rewards you with a good par or birdie opportunity from 150 yards or less. Land in the bunkers and it's pot luck, you may have a clean bunker shot from 150 yards, you may have one from 170, or you may be lipped and forced to lay up. Over hook it and a forest of evergreens will block any shot to the green. Hit your tee shot long but a bit too far right and a lake awaits if you run through the fairway, and a long approach even if if the ball stays up. Play the safe shot to the bend of the dogleg and you have a 190 - 200 yard shot with water 40 yards short, 10 yards left, and 20 yards right of the green. Most guys lay up and play for the bogey when they miss the tee shot.

That hole has cost me a personal best when I stood on the tee at 1 under and made a triple. I've also birdied it to win matches twice. I've hated it and I've loved, it, but mostly I think it's one of the best finishing holes I've ever played. I look forward to getting there every round.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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Man, you guys are killin me with this "18th should be the toughest". I'm OK with 15, 16 or 17.... but 18? I don't want 18 to be a pushover, but c'mon! Yikes!

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Man, you guys are killin me with this "18th should be the toughest". I'm OK with 15, 16 or 17.... but 18? I don't want 18 to be a pushover, but c'mon! Yikes!

I didn't say it should be the hardest hole, only that it should have the ability to create some drama. In my opinion, our 18th is the 3rd hardest par 4 hole on the course, but the risk - reward factor makes it a great finishing hole. You can play it for a bogey and make it an easy hole. But if you need to make something happen to win a match or post a score, then the opportunity is there to win glory or to crash and burn.

The other 2 hard par 4 holes are longer, both more than 440 from the tips, and they play to their full length because there is no dogleg to cut (one is even uphill). Those 2 holes also don't have any real risk reward factor... just straightaway long with bunkers, trees, and native rough to add to the problems of a wayward shot (the hardest one has an 8 foot wide irrigation ditch running all the way down the right side too).

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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