Questions For + Handicappers

[Bump-n-MI]

Basically the biggest thing I've noticed when I've played with + handicaps is once the get a 7i or less in their hands 95% of the time they are inside 15 feet.

So, from approach shots inside 160 yds they are 15 feet or less 95% of the time?

Um, no...

[c4m]

i have another question to add to this, how long did it take you to become a + hcp from the time you started playing? dont mean to hijack the thread, just curious how long it took you guys

[golfmonke]

Rebby, first of all, awesome post! Lots of info, thanks! I have some questions though...

Often times this practice took place indoors, either at the golf dome or in my apartment.

So what exactly were u working on then? Obviously speed control couldnt be the goal, just contact?

I'm not sure what you mean by "the length of my swing".

I know one of my problems is a swing that is too long and loose, I've always done everything trying to do it the hardest or fastest. Which was great for throwing a baseball and football, which earned me scholarships, but not so great for golf

I've been trying for years to make my long hard swing consistent, it has never worked. So now i'm working on shortening it and removing my hands, i've done it a few times in the past and always shot my best scores.

When things did go wrong, as they always will, I'd pay a quick visit to my old golf coach. Usually we'd get things fixed in a quick hour or so.

I"m starting to see that having a swing instructor who knows YOUR swing is the real advantage to having a swing coach, not neccessarily finding a coach who can teach you the "PERFECT" swing. I think i'll start working with my local guy.

I started playing smarter, not necessarily better.

Please expand , the more details the better

Distance. I hit the ball a long ways compared to a lot of people but on the vast majority of courses, you really don't need a long ball. I found that I hit a 2 iron off the tee more than any other club. I had no need to hit a driver on most holes.

The only problem I have with this , is that the only reason you can hit 2 irons , is because you are "longer than most people" :)

However, I don't believe the avg driving distance for men is only 205 because of lack of strength/athletic ability, but rather really poor technique and contact. Many of my friends who could hit a baseball as far as me , or close, can't come close to matching my golf distance. However, put both of us just swinging in the air on my speed radar and they are pretty close.

[TN94z]

I"m starting to see that having a swing instructor who knows YOUR swing is the real advantage to having a swing coach, not neccessarily finding a coach who can teach you the "PERFECT" swing. I think i'll start working with my local guy.

I started this year as a 2.5 and had some swing flaws that I wanted to correct. Now I had taken my game as far as I thought I could by myself. I started asking around researching some golf coaches. The only person that really knew my swing was me and my cousin that I play with all of the time...so having a "coach" that new my swing was not a possibility at that time. I found a teacher and talked with him over the phone. Once I got the impression that he wasn't going to "change" the swing I had and that he would just improve it (fix the specific flaws I pointed out), I started going to him. My overall goal is to continue seeing him until I get to scratch or even better. During this process, he will end up knowing my swing thoroughly from my flaws to what my tendencies are when I am under pressure. I think this will ultimately make me a great player. So far I have fallen to a 5 and might even get a little higher before it is said and done. I am making good progress though and expect my handicap to drop back to where it was fairly soon. Anyway, to make a long story short, if you don't have someone that "knows" your swing, then you need to find someone now and stay with them through the entire process. I do not recommend using someone that wants to teach you "his" swing...it looks like you know this already though. IMO, having a teacher that you trust will be one of the biggest assets you can acquire in reaching the kinds of goals that we are shooting for.

[Chief Broom]

Basically the biggest thing I've noticed when I've played with + handicaps is once the get a 7i or less in their hands 95% of the time they are inside 15 feet.

I can see this as being a fundamental key for scratch (and better) golf, but man that's a tall order, especially for a bogey golfer like me. This is where I lose a lot of strokes and worse it's where my blow up holes usually occur. It's not because I'm unplayable off the tee (although that does happen), nor that I leave a lot of strokes on the green (that happens too). My problem is missing the green or when I play somewhere with big greens I'm left with 100' to get down. Missing the green leads to all sorts of problems like sand and water hazards not to mention greenside rough that can easily add a stroke or more to your score for the hole. At my level I'm more concerned with keeping my misses to bogey as opposed to shooting for birdies with misses being pars. Improving my mid and short iron accuracy perhaps should become a stronger focus of my practice and game mindset?

[TN94z]

I can see this as being a fundamental key for scratch (and better) golf, but man that's a tall order, especially for a bogey golfer like me. This is where I lose a lot of strokes and worse it's where my blow up holes usually occur. It's not because I'm unplayable off the tee (although that does happen), nor that I leave a lot of strokes on the green (that happens too). My problem is missing the green or when I play somewhere with big greens I'm left with 100' to get down. Missing the green leads to all sorts of problems like sand and water hazards not to mention greenside rough that can easily add a stroke or more to your score for the hole. At my level I'm more concerned with keeping my misses to bogey as opposed to shooting for birdies with misses being pars. Improving my mid and short iron accuracy perhaps should become a stronger focus of my practice and game mindset?

I played with 2 + handicappers last weekend and I can tell you that neither of them stuck it within 15ft of the pin 95% of the time from 7i and in! That is a little crazy it seems....they were just VERY VERY good at putting and getting up and down.

[golfmonke]

I played with 2 + handicappers last weekend and I can tell you that neither of them stuck it within 15ft of the pin 95% of the time from 7i and in! That is a little crazy it seems....they were just VERY VERY good at putting and getting up and down.

According to Dave Pelz..... even the pro's miss their target by 7-8% on average.

so from 150 yards that'd be 36ft avg... Personally it seems the PGA Tour guys miss more like 5% within 150yds and maybe 7-8% from outside 150-200 , and 10% from 200+ But either way, + handicaps and even PGA guys aren't sticking it within 15ft 95% of the time. they do, do it often however and i'm sure a few misses by 100 ft factor into that avg as well, so I guess that's why it seems like they drop it within 15ft so often. The only problem with Pelz study I believe, is that he counted the flag as the target, which might not have always been the case. Their target may have often been 10ft to the left/long/short/ or right of the pin.

[TN94z]

According to Dave Pelz..... even the pro's miss their target by 7-8% on average.

I agree and I have read that about Dave Pelz as well. I am going by experience. They do it a lot during a round but to say they average it 95% of the time just doesn't seem accurate. I play with 3 +handicappers, a scratch player, a 2 handicapper, and a 10 handicapper. At my old course, the Pro was a PGA Pro that played in the St.Jude, etc...I have played with a pretty good group of quality ball strikers and I have never seen them average this statistic.

The Pro once told me that you need to be able to get up and down from 50 yards, 75% of the time....I think that's how it went. But he never gave me any statistic like this. Now he did tell me that with a short iron you should "be able" to hit it within 15 feet....he never said 95% of the time

[anthonykim3]

i am also a 5 handicapper and was wondering not to thread jack but you +'s what is your up and down percentage if you know it

[MiniMoe]

I had to go earlier, so I did not get to finish my thought. I was never the best golfer when I worked at golf course in Florida. Then I saw the best ball striker in the history hitting balls dead straight.... Moe Norman. I started to work on my swing. I watched Vids of Moe, thought about he proper movements in the swing and what they felt like, then tried to produce the right feelings in the swing. I did not worry too much about proper mechanics, because I was learning what feelings produced what results. It took me at least 5 years to learn my swing enough to control the ball like I need to. Once I learned that, it took me several more years of playing to learn good course and shot management. Once I got that, any score is possible on any course. How well I score depends on how well I putt. If I make putts, I go low. If I don't I might shoot anywhere from 2 under to 2 over.

Now the only thing I work on is timing and chipping and putting

[Bump-n-MI]

i am also a 5 handicapper and was wondering not to thread jack but you +'s what is your up and down percentage if you know it

I have been as low as a +.5 and as high as a 2 this year. Lately I've been playing some pretty consistent golf. These are my yearly averages in each category:

Scoring: 72.76 Putts: 28.72 Fairways: 7.01 (about 51%) Greens: 9.82 (about 55%) Sand Saves: 54% Up and Down: 64% Birdies per round: 4 Pars per round: 10 Bogies per round: 4 Others: 0.4

[jowlar]

1- How much time practicing did you put in during this time? What % of this time went to working on which areas of your game?

I didnt spend anymore time practicing than I always have but I did spend more of my time on the 100 yds and in shots.


2 - Did your distance increase, decrease, stay the same? What about the length of your swing.

I didn't notice any change in my club distances but I did measure and record how far I hit each club including 1/2 and 3/4 shots (with wedges and short irons).


3 - How often did you take lessons? ( If any) How did you find the "right" teacher?

I only had one lesson during this time and it was to correct an error I had developed in alignment. I didnt make any swing changes just some minor setup changes.

4 - How long did it take you to get from lets say a 5 to where you are now?
IDK

5 - What do you do now to maintain where you are , how much time do you put into what ever activities you do now?

I hit balls once a week on the range and hit some wedge shots at home a few days a week.

6 - What was the MOST important factor in allowing you to make this improvement?

I would say that in going from a -1 to a +1 it had to be the developing consistent distances with 1/2 and 3/4 shots. It was almost as if I added 4 clubs to my bag. The clubs that I hit now from <100 yds are no where near the same today as they were 18 months ago.

Also I change in attitude in my putting made a big difference. I have always been an above average ball striker especially with the long irons but my putting held me back from scoring low. It wasnt that I three putted very often but I didnt 1 putt as much as I should have. Confidence with the putter was a big problem. I was always changing my stance, grip, ball position, whatever I could to try to become a better putter. One day an older gentleman was watching me practice and said "there is nothing wrong with your stroke, you have a head problem. Hit the f'ing ball at the hole and quit worrying about how you do it". That is when I started practicing while looking at the hole and the putts just started to fall.


7 - What would you say is the least important factor which gets passed on as "a must to improve to scratch or better", but u found wasn't actually that important.

Length. I am not long, but I am accurate with the driver. I quit spending time improving my driving distance and concentrate on not losing any shots with the driver. My buddies call it condom golf(not as much fun but it won't get you in any trouble).

[TN94z]

My buddies call it condom golf(not as much fun but it won't get you in any trouble).

HAHA!!! I like this...I think I may start using this line!

[rebby]

Rebby, first of all, awesome post! Lots of info, thanks! I have some questions though...

Thanks, I'm glad that I was able to help you out.

So what exactly were u working on then? Obviously speed control couldnt be the goal, just contact?

When I'm rolling the ball on my carpet I focus on 2 main objectives. First is making a smooth, consistent, stroke and keeping my body still throughout, and after, the entire stroke (watch Tiger, he's easily one of the best in this aspect, even Arnie said so in this month's issue of GD). Second, I work on direction. I putt to very small targets, like the leg of my coffee table and/or other golf balls. I don't put a lot of emphasis on this however mainly because I have yet to find a carpet that rolls true. Just as I learn the minor movements in my carpet, my wife vacuums and they change. I also work on distance control to a point. As you already pointed out the speed of carpet is very different than the speed of a green, however from one ball to the next, it's pretty much the same. You can work on distance control and feel in this respect. For me, in January, there isn't much choice.

I know one of my problems is a swing that is too long and loose, I've always done everything trying to do it the hardest or fastest. Which was great for throwing a baseball and football, which earned me scholarships, but not so great for golf I've been trying for years to make my long hard swing consistent, it has never worked. So now i'm working on shortening it and removing my hands, i've done it a few times in the past and always shot my best scores.

Sounds a lot like what I used to fight in my early days of highschool. My golf coach, like a lot of college coaches, believed in the many advantages to a shorter backswing. As a result, I shortened mine while working with him and became a much more consistent ball striker. Eventually I relearned how to transfer my power with this shorter swing and started to hit the ball just as far as I had before shortening my backswing. My backswing isn't as short as it could be but I still stay slightly short of parallel.

I"m starting to see that having a swing instructor who knows YOUR swing is the real advantage to having a swing coach, not neccessarily finding a coach who can teach you the "PERFECT" swing. I think i'll start working with my local guy.

For me, somebody who knows my swing is a big advantage. Now that I no longer lean on one individual (my former coach), I look for guys who understand my common swing faults and work with them. Preferably, the guys that I work with have the same common faults that I do. This gives them an intimate knowledge of the problem and the fix. My biggest swing fault is with my driver, I tend to drive with my right shoulder causing my right elbow to fly which results in an over the top action. It's a very common swing fault, especially for beginners. It's a bit embarrassing to suffer the same fault but it is what it is. For me to see a guy who fights a snap hook just doesn't make sense. I was fortunate this summer, the guy who I worked with had the exact same tendency and was able to identify and fix it in a single 1 hour session. It was scary actually, we had a lot in common. Very similar swings, similar tendencies, similar distances, similar course management, etc, etc.

Please expand , the more details the better

I started playing smarter, not necessarily better. (I wish that it would do the double quote but whatever)...

This is really a testament to how poor my course management skills were in highschool, nothing more. In HS I played a lot of easy pars into bogies or even doubles by trying to get greedy and force birdies. For example, I remember a specific shot that I faced during my junior year in highschool. I was roughly 100 yards out facing a front pin location that was tucked in next to a water hazard. I was going dead into a 5-10 mph wind on pretty level ground with the stick, a perfect SW (I hit my 56' SW 112, did back then as well). I was hitting a Titleist Professional 90 off a tight fairway lie and let the SW rip, I hit it perfect and it landed about 2 yards short of the pin on a slight down slope (towards the water). Still sounding pretty good right? Wrong, what happens when you hit a Titleist Professional with a SW off of a tight lie into a 5-10 mph wind? That's right, it spins like mad! The ball landed, took one hop and spun like an SOB right back into that water hazard. I then took my drop and tried to get cute with it, again. This time I got lucky but I was still flirting with disaster. I played a super easy par into a very difficult bogie (I ended up 2 putting for a double that day). Years later I returned to the same course and was presented with the same shot, this time around however, I played smarter. I hit a partial PW to the middle of the green with a lot of spin (I wasn't carrying a GW at the time). In this case I totally took the water out of play, I wasn't risking putting the ball into the water due to a slight mishit or by putting to much spin on the ball. Unlike that day in highschool, I was playing smart. I didn't get greedy and try to stick it to 3 feet; a high risk gamble. Instead I played the smart shot and gave myself a put for birdie from 15 feet instead of a 60 yard pitch for par. In highschool my game was like a scene out of Tin Cup. When I pulled off the shot, it was great but more often than not I didn't pull it off. This led to some big numbers on my scorecard and we all know that's not going to get you under par very often. When I started playing smarter, the big numbers went away (for the most part) and the birdies started to fall here and there. Before you know it, the average starts to fall. Hopefully your course management isn't as poor as mine was but if it is, you can really turn things around fast by playing smarter.

The only problem I have with this , is that the only reason you can hit 2 irons , is because you are "longer than most people" :)

Maybe, maybe not. Distance gets you in trouble. If you rip a driver 300 yards and put just a touch of cut or hook spin on the ball, you can find the trees really quick. On the flip side, if you hit the ball 250, it takes a bigger mistake to reach the trees. I find it a lot easier to hit the green with a 7 iron from the fairway than trying to hit a high hook with a 9 iron out of the trees.

I can remember a number of rounds that my driver never left the bag. One of my last rounds in highschool was played on a 6800 yard course and my driver never left the bag. I medaled with a 71 and hit 16 greens that day. Repeat after me... Fairways and greens, fairways and greens.

However, I don't believe the avg driving distance for men is only 205 because of lack of strength/athletic ability, but rather really poor technique and contact.

Agreed.

Many of my friends who could hit a baseball as far as me , or close, can't come close to matching my golf distance. However, put both of us just swinging in the air on my speed radar and they are pretty close.