Should a test be required before playing public course?

[wachesawgolfer]

At first I thought the test related to skill level. A course may want to see if a person can even hit the ball rather than send a foursome out, none of whom ever played before, and deal with asking them to speedup or leave. As for ballmark repairs, most of the public courses here in coastal SC have greens so hard you could sprain your wrist trying to repair the mark and many people for that reason don't even try (because they cannot physically do it.)

[Wood]

As for ballmark repairs, most of the public courses here in coastal SC have greens so hard you could sprain your wrist trying to repair the mark and many people for that reason don't even try (because they cannot physically do it.)

If the greens are soft enough to show a ball mark, they can be repaired. If they are so hard as to not to be able to get a repair tool in the ground, then the ball did not leave a mark.

[wachesawgolfer]

Wood, I wish that were true. So many ball dents on some of these courses here, and they are just real difficult to repair.

[cdriver]

I went out early one morning after a big storm the night before and the greens were just covered with awful looking ball marks. It took two or three holes of bitching before I realized we had hail during the night... You can laugh at me if you like, I certainly did once I figured it out...

[cmay119]

I voted yes. I'm glad this topic was brought up, because I had an experience yesterday that boiled my blood.

I was playing with two friends at a local public course. One of my friends was a newer player so he didn't play all that fast. We had a foursome of teenage guys playing behind us that were very loud and obnoxious, whom you could hear constantly throughout the course. That right there already had me annoyed by them, but I didn't let it bother me and continued playing. Then we get to the 7th hole tee box, the hole runs parrallel with the sixth hole so the tee box on the 6th was close to the 7th holes green. One of the players in the foursome shanked his shot and it ended up on the 7th green. So we watch the player walk up to his ball and proceed to hit his ball off the green with a friggin' wedge, taking a huge divot right out of the green.

I yelled at the little punk (vile cursing was involved), and he proceeded to give me the finger and walk to his ball. It pissed me off pretty good, but luckly my buddy had a camera phone with him. He took a snapshot of the divot and we played through the last holes, and wen't back into the club house where we told the greens keeper and showed him the picture.

Sweet revenge when the guys were walking back to there car.

We witnessed the greens keeper giving them the what-for, and he took them back to the 7th green to have a better look at the damage. We left after that, so I'm not sure what the greens keeper had them do to compensate for the damage.

I'm not too much of a stickler for etiquette, but that pissed me off more than anything I've ever experienced on a golf course.

[Rafcin]

Raf, I didn't say I liked it or even agreed with it. True equality recognizes some element of merit. In other words those who have invested the time to acheive a resonable level of playing skill and understanding of proper etiquette should not be penalized. I was just referencing what I belive is the attitude most business have to take towards, how they are percieved.

Absolutely. I think we have 2 totally different kind of problem: novice on the course (what could be addressed by some kind of education and test) and aholes. They can only be shot, no therapy helps there

[Rafcin]

...So we watch the player walk up to his ball and proceed to hit his ball off the green with a friggin' wedge, taking a huge divot right out of the green....

oooohhh.... if I was there with my sniper rifle...

I found a divot right next to a cup on one of the holes at my home course. Obviously some ahole missed 2ft putt and swong at the ground in anger. In my book that qualifies for a immediate removal from the premisses, followed by re-creation of the event in the parking log using a putter and perp's head.

[slimeberry]

A test? That is the most rediculous idea I have ever heard. If you want to get away from the pony tails, jean shorts, tank tops, and unraked bunkers, stop playing at the local par 3 and join a golf club. Spring for a place that weeds out 80% of that crap w/ it's fees and rules. But a test seems a bit over the top. There are different levels of courses, just like there are different levels of players. No one, however, should be excluded from playing. How will they ever learn? Sure, every adult should be held to course etiquite and rules. That is where a booklet and a good person at the 1st tee would be a good start.

My kids are 5 and 6. I have enough respect for the game not to take them out at 8am on a Saturday, but we do go out at least once a week in the evening to do just what you are testing for. To teach them golf etiquite, rules, how to play the game, and most of all... many of you in favor of the test may be unfamiliar w/ this... TO HAVE FUN!!! If my six year old had to score under 120, or take a test, he would never get to learn or appreciate the game as we all have gotten to do. Does anyone remember their first experiences on the track? Was there someone watching over you, testing you, criticizing you, or did you go out w/ your dad or your friends and have fun, learning the game in the process? My son is six and he finished 3rd in his age flight at our clubs Jr. Championship. He played in front of a small gallery of parents, friends, and grandparents at age six. That is more than I had done at that age. We need to encourage new players trying to learn the game, not exclude them because they are annoying.

[slimeberry]

I do agree though, a** holes and beginers are not the same. Someone who takes a chunk out of the green needs to be ejected from the course and never allowed back.

[iacas]

A test? That is the most rediculous idea I have ever heard. If you want to get away from the pony tails, jean shorts, tank tops, and unraked bunkers, stop playing at the local par 3 and join a golf club.

I think that sometimes people have a limited selection of golf courses, and even joining a club is no way to guarantee you won't find such people.

What if I couldn't afford to join a club but still wanted to play golf without the morons?

No one, however, should be excluded from playing. How will they ever learn?

Though it's not necessarily MY answer, one answer to this question is right there in front of you: by taking a class and getting the "license." Or by playing in designated times. Or by playing "open" courses... or any number of other things.

Sure, every adult should be held to course etiquite and rules. That is where a booklet and a good person at the 1st tee would be a good start.

Because Americans are so good at reading directions...

My kids are 5 and 6. I have enough respect for the game not to take them out at 8am on a Saturday, but we do go out at least once a week in the evening to do just what you are testing for.

You're not one of the people who do such a thing. You'd likely pass such a test.

To teach them golf etiquite, rules, how to play the game, and most of all... many of you in favor of the test may be unfamiliar w/ this... TO HAVE FUN!!! If my six year old had to score under 120, or take a test, he would never get to learn or appreciate the game as we all have gotten to do.

So you'd take your kids to one of the "open" courses that didn't require a license. I don't necessarily agree with the licensing, but that's how it would work.

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I'm sure licensing works pretty well in countries where it's traditionally been done that way (i.e. "it's just the way things are" so people accept it and don't bitch about it), while getting something started here would result in all sorts of yelling and fighting. I wish some local public courses would create blocks of tee times - again perhaps the first two hours of each day - for the better players and leave the rest of the morning/afternoon/evening for the hacks and scrabble. But that may not be economically feasible. So, really, I'm kind of a fence-sitter on this one. Hell, I'd be happy if my home course hired a ranger.

[Rafcin]

A test? That is the most rediculous idea I have ever heard.

pretty harsh dude. what about a idea of having slaves or exterminating nations? Pretty big words u're throwing around. Especially since several european countries implemented this system and they're doing just fine - there is a rest of the world, besides US you know...

If you want to get away from the pony tails, jean shorts, tank tops, and unraked bunkers, stop playing at the local par 3 and join a golf club. Spring for a place that weeds out 80% of that crap w/ it's fees and rules. But a test seems a bit over the top. There are different levels of courses, just like there are different levels of players. No one, however, should be excluded from playing.

I'm a member at a semi-private course, I can't afford joining any of the full-private courses (btw - should I start a loss suit against their exludatory practices?) Unfortunatelly their financial situation doesn't prevent me from exposures to clueless people.

How will they ever learn? Sure, every adult should be held to course etiquite and rules. That is where a booklet and a good person at the 1st tee would be a good start.

on the range first, playing lessons second.Don't make it harder than it sounds.

My kids are 5 and 6. I have enough respect for the game not to take them out at 8am on a Saturday

trust me, you're exception in area where I live

Was there someone watching over you, testing you, criticizing you

yes, first time on the course ( after few months on the range and several rounds on pitch-and-putt courses (oops, did I actually showed a little concern to "serious" players out there by getting PREPARED?) I asked my friend, who got me into the game to point out all etiquette, rule, etc. "violations". I made sure it happend only once. Shot 97 my very first round . Did I hve fun? Hell yea.

We need to encourage new players trying to learn the game, not exclude them because they are annoying.

why? public courses are overcrowded already (ok, I said that just for the sake of argument

). If someone gets hooked by watching TV or playing computer games (don't laugh, that's how I got hooked!) - they'll find the way to do it w/o sticking it into their faces.

[slimeberry]

"Pretty harsh dude. what about a idea of having slaves or exterminating nations? Pretty big words u're throwing around. Especially since several european countries implemented this system and they're doing just fine-"

I don't intend to sound harsh and I don't think I did. This may sound harsh too, and if it does, well it does. What the hell does slavery and genocide have to do with the topic, my thread, or golf in general? What the hell are you talking about? I had to read the first part of your response twice just to make sure I was reading it correctly.

Now, if we have moved past your incoherent rant about "slavery and destroying nations" I will address your points that actually relate to this thread. But first, a question...

"I'm a member at a semi-private course, I can't afford joining any of the full-private courses (btw - should I start a loss suit against their exludatory practices?)"

Why should you start a law suite against private clubs? I am not sure what you were getting at there. Are you implying that private clubs somehow owe you reperations for "excluding" you?

Private and Semi-Private clubs have great players that follow and stick to every rule in the book. They also all have idiots that get out there and hold us up, don't rake the bunkers, don't repare green marks, and don't fix their divots. That happens everywhere. However, it happens much less at Private and Semi-Private Clubs because members take ownership in the course and thier guests tend to be more respectful of the rules, their pace, and the way they take care of the track. Thats not to say it is perfect, it is not. But it sure as hell beats a round at a $15 muni.

"on the range first, playing lessons second.Don't make it harder than it sounds."

To address your comment about learning on the range... it is not the same at all, and I think you know that. At least where I am there are about 5 courser for every 1 driving range. Ranges have weird hours, are generally out of the way, or they are apart of a club, which you seem to have so much resentment for. Lessons are great. Highly recomended, but I don't know a single person that is going to pay for a playing lesson BEFORE they ever get out on a track to see how they like the game.

"trust me, you're exception in area where I live"

I don't know where you live, but at my course, nearly all parents of younger kids have the same respect I do for people's time on the course. There are always parents out w/ their kids after 5 or 6, trying to teach them the game, the rules, and the etiquite. I have never been held up by a group w/ young kids on a busy day. So, I don't think I am the exception, at least not where I play. But again, the more the players take ownership of the course they play on, the more they respect the course and the people around them. That is not elitist, it is just the trurth.

"yes, first time on the course ( after few months on the range and several rounds on pitch-and-putt courses (oops, did I actually showed a little concern to "serious" players out there by getting PREPARED?)"

A beginner shows concern for better players by letting them play through, fixing their ball marks, divots, traps, etc. Not by staying away and sticking to black light putt-putt and indoor golf. But that was very admirable of you.

No hard feelings. Again, I don't intend to sound harsh. I can, however, disagree with you. Thats the great thing about living in this country... at least until we all become slaves and are ravaged by a nation destroying super power. Until then... I think testing an individual before letting him or her on a course is a silly idea, IMHO.

[allin]

Slimeberry, I wonder if you even read my post? I just wanted to restrict less skilled golfers to forward tees, and possibly limit access to the busiest times.

I think you have ignored the most important factor in this discussion.
With every right comes certain responsibilities. The people whose rights you are protecting are people who haven't bothered to accept any responsibility. The end result is that others who have accepted the responsibility to play courses they have the skill to play, using the appropriate tees, are denied fair use of the course.

Our entire political and legal system is based on a social contract which attempts to find a balance and protect everyones rights.
There are examples of license's and skill testing for other leisure activities. Ski resorts, for example, often restrict access to expert slopes. Many golf courses prohibit people the age of your children from playing. Everyone is searching for a balance. Right now inconsiderate boobs and ignorant people who think they have a constiutional right (wrongly) to do whatever they want as long as they paid their money are out of control.

[Rafcin]

I don't intend to sound harsh and I don't think I did. This may sound harsh too, and if it does, well it does. What the hell does slavery and genocide have to do with the topic, my thread, or golf in general? What the hell are you talking about? I had to read the first part of your response twice just to make sure I was reading it correctly.

you said that "license" idea was THE WORST IDEA YOU EVER HEARD.

I just give you examples of a little bit worse ideas I guess my sarcasm went right over your head, it happens a lot to me - I guess my sense of humor is kind of perverted

Why should you start a law suite against private clubs? I am not sure what you were getting at there. Are you implying that private clubs somehow owe you reperations for "excluding" you?

hell yea! After all - they asking for all that initiation fees and yearly dues that I can't afford. Is it my fault? no, I'm trying my best to make as much money as I can. They should be open to EVERYBODY! (ok, to prevent another suspicion of "incoherant statements - it's is as well a sarcasm in case you miss it

).

To address your comment about learning on the range... it is not the same at all, and I think you know that. At least where I am there are about 5 courser for every 1 driving range. Ranges have weird hours, are generally out of the way, or they are apart of a club, which you seem to have so much resentment for

I live in NJ, where land is rather expensive, so we've plenty more ranges than golf courses...

...but I don't know a single person that is going to pay for a playing lesson BEFORE they ever get out on a track...

let me introduce myself to you - my name is Rafael and I did it... but again - I must be an exception

Now you know one single person who did that

I don't know where you live, but at my course, nearly all parents of younger kids have the same respect I do for people's time on the course. There are always parents out w/ their kids after 5 or 6, trying to teach them the game, the rules, and the etiquite. I have never been held up by a group w/ young kids on a busy day. So, I don't think I am the exception, at least not where I play. But again, the more the players take ownership of the course they play on, the more they respect the course and the people around them. That is not elitist, it is just the trurth.

you're right, most parents are respectful and pay attention, that their time with the youngsters isn't a annoyance to anybody. Note though - in the prior posts - there was no word about people with children. This kind of setup is mostly a parent, who is a experience golfer and doesn't cause "troubles" that instigated this discussion.

No hard feelings. Again, I don't intend to sound harsh. I can, however, disagree with you. Thats the great thing about living in this country... at least until we all become slaves and are ravaged by a nation destroying super power. Until then... I think testing an individual before letting him or her on a course is a silly idea, IMHO.

never hard feelings - it's a dicussion board and what's a discussion w/o diasgreement?

by the way - since you're a calling it a "silly" idea I think you got my sarcasm (see first quote)

[BigAl5150]

A test would be nice but impractical. Also, I don't know even if you had a test or a required class that people would just do enough to pass or get their "license" and then go out and act just like before the class/test. IMHO, people don't give a crap or respect others property. The course they are playing isn't their's and they don't have worry about the repairs etc. and they feel they paid their greens fee and can act any way they want.

Ok, I'll put the soapbox away and fix another ballmark . . .

[jamesduncan]

I think you have ignored the most important factor in this discussion.

now this is a stretch Im afraid. they do have a constitutional right to do that. are you trying to say that playing golf within the rules laid out but the USGA (ediquette is most certainly a rule) is a right protected bythe US Constitution? your examples dont really fall into any sort of category that would be considered rights under law and protected as such. Those are rules set up by an entity and you enter into an agreement with them once you pay your fee. Now if someone doesnt decide to follow those rules, you ask them (the establishment) to enforce their own rules. If they dont ,you would have other options as to where to take your business, as seen by a court.. Theres no rule of law that would say that because a particular establishment (a muni lets say) wasnt enforcing their own rules, your constitutional rights were being infringed upon. youre unfort stretching things (quite a bit i must say) here if this is whats justifying your request for a test. bitch about slow play all you want (i 100% with you actually) but start to talk in terms of rights under law? maybe its time to take up a new hobby? (that was a joke..)

[cdriver]

One thing I will say for this thread... it has certainly raised a lot of interest. As much as I would like to see a test, I don't see it ever happening. Regardless of what the majority of us want, they continue to let rude, selfish people reproduce and their children will be no better than they are. I am trying very hard to develop patience on the golf course. It is difficult, but I think it will be worthwhile. It can help keep my blood pressure down, allow me to smile while I wait out another slow group. One side benefit to all this waiting on the tee box is that I am getting pretty darned good at juggling the ball on a wedge.

[allin]

James re read my post. My statement clearly is intended to be a response to people who think they have a legal right to do anything they wish if they paid a greens fee. I believe this is a valid example. My point is that the responses we have discussed, which we all know won't be adopted, would be legal. If a course chose to impose such rules they most certainly would be legal. And no this is not a constitutional issue. My preceding paragraph referred to social contracts, not legal ones. Much of our law arises out of a desire to turn social contacts into law. If you are an attorney you should be aware of these issues? An example would be the social contract, or value if you prefer, that the elderly should be protected from poverty, turned into law by the creation of social security and all of the laws which go with it. My main point is still valid. Every right brings with it certain responsibilies. Many of the most troubled people in our society are those who don't recognize this. I have worked with these individuals on a daily basis for 25 years, including frequent testimony in court and before mental health boards. It has been many years since an attorney challenged my credentials, so yes I am an expert in this area.