Hogan vs. Stack and Tilt, an Exercise

[iacas]

Here's a picture. I'd include it, but it's a bit too wide and I hate it when images stretch the browser.

Hogan vs. Stack and Tilt

This picture shows illustrations of Ben Hogan from "Five Lessons" laid over the prototypical Stack and Tilter, Aaron Baddeley. The image may surprise some people, and I'm curious what everyone thinks of the image.

First, some things which I take as fact*:

• Ben Hogan was particular. Picky. Perfectionistic. If the drawings in the book weren't exactly right, he'd have had them re-drawn. So the drawings accurately display what Ben Hogan wanted them to show.
• Aaron Baddeley is exaggerating everything a little bit in that Golf Digest article. Straight from the mouths of Bennett and Plummer.
• The "camera" angles aren't exactly the same. The camera angle in the Hogan illustrations is a tad higher. But they're close enough that we can pretty much assume there aren't any optical illusions here.
• Video of Hogan sometimes shows a slight reverse K position, but careful study of these videos shows that his upper body didn't really move back, but his lower center (the center of his hips, between his belt buckle and his tailbone) moved a bit forward on the backswing. In other words, Hogan wanted so badly to keep his hips from swaying back on the backswing so much that sometimes they'd move a little forward on the takeaway (and then obviously they'd push forward on his downswing).

Now, if you've read Five Lessons a lot you'll notice the second image is from page 73 (in my softcover book), which also clearly shows how the shoulders turned about in relation to the hips. If Hogan had been in the "Reverse K" position that some people (including Mike Bender) believe is a good position, the shoulders would be further to the left in that illustration, with the left hip sticking out in front. Instead, we see the shoulders pretty much matched up with the left hip, while the right hip sticks out behind (away from the target) the chest.

There's no way you get your hip sticking out farther than your chest in the "Reverse K" swing.

I'm really interested in what about two or three people have to say about this, but also what "everyone else" thinks too.

P.S. Goes without saying that some of the above is my own original thought, and some comes from a conversation with David Wedzik. Among the smaller things, he offered the "fact" that Aaron Baddeley was exaggerating things slightly for the purpose of illustrating the principles.

* I'm going to play devil's advocate a little here. Take everything with a grain of salt.

[SQ Bimmer]

Is this further proof for your point that Golf Digest spits out the same advice that has been around for years, repackages it and throws it at you as "revolutionary?" I just stumbled upon "stack and tilt" the other day and was actually about to search for the previous thread to detail my higher handicapped opinions about it, but this thread is much more on topic with what I wanted to say.

I was going through the stack and tilt instructional slides (holding a remote control instead of a club grip) last night, and noticed something funny about it. I ALREADY do that! Not much about "stack and tilt" is any different than what I have been taught up to this point both from Ben Hogan's book, and a local professional regarding how to move your shoulders and transfer your weight, etc. In fact, during the last lesson I took, the pro had me put my right toe on top of an upside down range basket so that I could get the exaggerated feeling of weight on my left side in my backswing.

Just about the only discrepancies I have found so far is how to hang your arms. My pro insists that you do NOT squeeze your elbows together, but rather let your arms hang down relaxed. Ben Hogan insists that you squeeze your elbows together. Anyone have any clarification on this?

[RC]

There are many good things in S&T; as well as the classical weight shift type swing. I come from the school that thinks there are a few critical things that need to be in the golf swing no matter the method you use.

One is that the hips do not move to the right on the backswing. I want the right leg to remain tilted a bit toward the target and some flex to remain in the right knee, even if the leg straightens a bit. The reverse K look is in Hogan's swing -- not as much as in some, but it is there. I think this appears if the hips stay centered and the right leg does not shift to the golfers right on the backswing. However, the key thing is the K shape not show up on the golfer's left side. S&T; comes close to a reverse weight shift for many. However, somewhere in all this the athletic factor comes into play. A driver with the ball on a tee is different from a wedge off a tight lie and the shafts are very different in length. I think more weight left is a good thing on many scoring shots.

At one time, there were 23 golfers on tour using S&T; according to Bill Moretti's newsletter. That same report said 21 had abandoned the S&T; aspect that can create a reverse weight shift, including Badderly.

Golf changes over time, going from extreme to extreme, and then settling back to somewhere in the middle that optimizes the "then current equipment." There was a time when almost all the weight went to the right foot and the left foot lifted so only a slight weight was on the toes. There was a time when the reverse C finish was the most sought after finish. There was a time when a very upright swing was considered the best. There was a time when probably half the players on tour would be criticized for having "laid off" positions at the top. There was a time when S&T; emerged as the answer for better ball striking just like there are those that say a one plane swing is the best choice. I don't think any one thing is necessarily the best.

Through it all, the old ideas of about a 70/30 weight shift, a generally centered position, and a weight shift to the left while clearing the hips on the downswing have survived. The swing is more rotary today, is more right-sided, and flatter than in the past... but these are reflections of equipment and mechanical studies that indicate optimised positions for 45 or 46 inch drivers, better irons, etc. Because the ball flies straighter, and shafts are hugely better with clubheads with better MOI and launch characteristics, we should expect some drift in what is the prototypical tuned swing. But no matter the "generally accepted" best swing choices, it comes down to the individual and what they can best execute to achieve a good impact position. That is why there are swings that range from Kenny Perry to Ernie Els to Y.E. Yang to Jim Furyk to Tiger, etc. None of these hit the ball the furthest -- that mantle belongs to Jamie Sadlowski, and likely none of us can duplicate his swing.

This is a long post -- I apologize for it, but the only point I would make is I want to see the ball flight. If you can hit it long, consistently, and with a controllable ball flight that scores, that is a good swing.

[iacas]

Just posting - briefly - for the sake of discussion.

The reverse K look is in Hogan's swing -- not as much as in some, but it is there.

It's not in the drawings from the book. Scroll up. Look at the picture. That's the point I'm trying to discuss here.

Additionally, a lot of people ascribe a "reverse K" to Hogan only because his hips started going forward so quickly and so early in his downswing (so early that they started before his shoulder rotation had stopped going back). That's how he got the reverse K look. If you freeze video of Hogan when his club stops going back, it'll look reverse K, but that's only because his hips have moved from being centered to pushing forward already. If you freeze video - or look at his drawings - of Hogan just before his hips went forward, no reverse K. More like an I, and not an italic one.

S&T; comes close to a reverse weight shift for many.

And I'd suggest it isn't a "reverse shift" at all unless you're doing it incorrectly, in which case ascribing it one "swing variant" or another is a pointless endeavor. It'd be like me saying the reverse K leads to swaying hips and a swaying upper body for many. It does in people that are doing it wrong...

After all, a true "reverse weight shift" gets the weight right on the downswing, and that's NEVER a good method. S&T; never lets the weight get back. It stays centered, then you push forward. Just like Hogan.

At one time, there were 23 golfers on tour using S&T; according to Bill Moretti's newsletter. That same report said 21 had abandoned the S&T; aspect that can create a reverse weight shift, including Badderly.

That really doesn't have anything to do with Hogan and Stack and Tilt, and RC, you're a smart enough guy to know that if you teach one method of swinging, bashing other methods is self serving. There are less than 20 truly certified Stack and Tilt instructors in the country, and Plummer/Bennett teach a higher percentage of PGA Tour players (right now, today) than any other teacher.

But again, that's neither here nor there... Hogan and Stack and Tilt.

[deronsizemore]

After all, a true "reverse weight shift" gets the weight right on the downswing, and that's NEVER a good method. S&T; never lets the weight get back. It stays centered, then you push forward.

Exactly. Everyone tries to pull the "reverse weight shift" card but the weight never goes to the back foot therefore it can't be "reverse."

I know a couple guys who got started with S&T; from Plummer himself. One still seems him regularly. I should ask him his thoughts on a lot of this since their information is coming from "the man" himself.

[iacas]

Also, and I don't know much about Andrew Rice, but there's this too:
http://www.andrewricegolf.com/?tag=84-degree-secret

[RC]

I looked more closely at the pictures posted in the original post, and Erik is right about Hogan. In the middle, the first picture on the left shows no K shape (the one from behind.) On the bottom level, the one from in front shows a very small difference, a hint of a reversed K but nothing like a full blown one. So, I can only conclude from these pictures that Hogan stayed centered over the ball. He does have the right leaning right leg that I like.

The only conclusion I can draw is that K shape I've seen in his swing comes from exactly what you say -- that he moves forward before his upper body begins its motion. He moves dynamically into that hip position.

One thing is clear to me... I don't know much about stack and tilt and with everything else, what one picks up just from reading about a swing is never going to be as complete as being with a teacher that can really explain it and work with you to get the swing technically correct. I hit a lot of scoring irons with a more centered swing, but it still must be pretty far off from a true stack and tilt.

I quoted Moretti only because he is one of the few I have actually read or heard say much about S&T.; He and his academy are not S&T; oriented, but there are some elements of the swing used in some shots they teach (at least I think there is.)

The Hogan pictures cause me to rethink a few things. But the real truth is I just do not know enough to say much more.

[david_wedzik]

RC - good post...better follow up. What is most important to consider in the photos or video study of Hogan is his upper torso. When the legs/hips are removed from the equation his upper torso is VERY close to or perfectly vertical. There is no translation of the upper axis or tilting of the axis to the right.

I had a discussion with Erik earlier today about the diagram on the back of the hardcover copy of 5 fundamentals. In my opinion, it should be studied and UNDERSTOOD by every serious player/student of the game. Ravielli's drawing clearly shows the Hogan representation of the shoulders turning, in a circle, on a 90 deg. angle to a vertical spine and also shows how the shoulders are in front of the hips in that relationship (not behind and not tilted away from the target in any way). Do not gloss over this part - effort was taken to add this to the book (see the broken "line" in the center of the shoulder representation) so it must have mattered to Hogan.

Last thing I wanted to be sure and mention. Whether or not it was in a teaching pro's newsletter, I can say with complete certainty and conviction that this statement - "That same report said 21 had abandoned the S&T; aspect that can create a reverse weight shift" - is COMPLETELY untrue. Have a great night all!

Dave

[Jay-Bird]

Hogan's a lot farther back in his hips. There is no sliding of the hips in the stack and tilt - by stacking and tilting Badds looks like he's already in position to finish.

I do think Baddeley's weight-forward is very exaggerated. His arm position in his back swing is text book S&T; - lead arm is across the chest.

[iacas]

Hogan's a lot farther back in his hips. There is no sliding of the hips in the stack and tilt - by stacking and tilting Badds looks like he's already in position to finish.

Hogan didn't slide his hips on the backswing. He rotated them back, then pushed the through, forward.

Does Baddeley even use the Stack and Tilt swing anymore??

That's not relevant. His pictures are widely known, so that's what I used.

[Andrew Rice]

This is an interesting post and certainly addresses a topic that I am passionate about.
Hogan had a reverse K in his swing, but not if you view his swing prior to his body/mid-section initiating the downswing (prior to the club reaching parallel). As his club approaches the top, there certainly appears to be a reverse K look to the body position.
In studying many of golf's greatest players I have found that the vast majority of them wind their back side (right side for right handers) up against what is an 84 degree line drawn up from against the outside of the back foot. As the body initiates the downswing, which most often is prior to the arms and club completing the bcakswing, the hips/mid-section separate from the line as they drive into the front foot and impact. Thus, if you look at a swing when the club stops at the top the lower body is almost always partially into the downswing which gives the impression of a reverse K.
Eric has already (kindly!) placed a link to my website and my thoughts with supporting photos on the matter so there is no need to repeat that again, but I would encourage all who are interested to take a look and decide for yourselves.
As far as S'nT goes, Bennett and Plummer are top notch instructors who sat down and looked at the golf swing through their own eyes. They were not afraid to go against 'conventional wisdom' and I applaud them for that. I also think they make some very valid points about the golf swing and how to impact a golf ball correctly.
Thanks and I enjoyed reading everybody's thoughts.

[mc0388]

Hogan vs. Stack and Tilt I'm curious what everyone thinks of the image.

If you watch videos of Hogan's swing: His upper body doesn't move back in his backswing, because already has his weight on his back foot 'before' he starts his backswing. Since his weight is already back, there is no need for a transfer, or shift back. His weight transfer forward starts just before he finishes his backswing, he 'slides' into his downswing, while maintaining swing plain, his head position, and getting his hands into the 'slot'. (Its amazing how much energy he stores in the club-head throughout the swing) His finish is very similar to a S&T; finish. Iacas, By looking at your pictures it would seem that they both are in a similar position at the top of there backswing, but how they got there are very different. Hogan has all of the 'lag' stored in the club head, while Baddely has his 'lag' store in his spine... .............. The equipment that Hogan used had a noticeable impact on his swing, you can tell when he 'casts' the club out on his take away, he is controlling where the club-head is at all times through-out the swing. With the more advanced equipment that we play today, he probably would have a different swing, probably more compact (possibly more Steve Stricker'ish'?)...

[iacas]

His upper body doesn't move back in his backswing, because already has his weight on his back foot 'before' he starts his backswing. Since his weight is already back, there is no need for a transfer, or shift back.

Minor quibbles aside, fine. But that's not really the point here, and Aaron's weight isn't very different from Hogan's distribution.

His weight transfer forward starts just before he finishes his backswing, he 'slides' into his downswing, while maintaining swing plain, his head position, and getting his hands into the 'slot'. (Its amazing how much energy he stores in the club-head throughout the swing)

His hands never really leave the slot. He didn't have much lift, so he never had to drop them into the slot. They're "slotted" throughout his swing.

And yes, the top of his backswing (on down to impact and through) is pretty much Stack and Tilt, which is the point of this thread - to discuss the top of his backswing and how it does not seem to be the reverse K a lot of people believe it to be.

By looking at your pictures it would seem that they both are in a similar position at the top of there backswing, but how they got there are very different. Hogan has all of the 'lag' stored in the club head, while Baddely has his 'lag' store in his spine...

I don't know that I agree with that, but that's largely because I have no idea what you mean by "storing lag" anywhere let alone in your spine. You don't "store lag." Lag is simply a funct of the clubhead remaining on plane and the hands remaining hinged.

Hogan's arms lifted a little bit more than Aaron's. His shoulders are turned in the pictures a little bit more as well. And his wrists hinged a bit more. Little bits. I would like to keep this on topic, and that topic is "top of the backswing positions." I posit that Hogan was not reverse K at all, and that he was very close to Stack and Tilt. The topic isn't equipment. If it was, I could relate stories about how stiff Hogan's shafts were and how most pros who tried to hit them hit low liners to right field and how Tiger was one of the few who could hit them okay after a few adjustments.

[ddalet]

I've looked at hogan's swing extensively. Turns out what he wrote is not nec. what he did.

I dont see him coming off his left foot to his right at all, just staying on the ball. To me, except for baddeley's forward torso incline, those sketches look very very similar.

[ddalet]

If you watch videos of Hogan's swing:

this was what i meant to quote.

This is way off IMO. See how his left knee comes in and there is no lateral motion in his torso/hips/head? Try to do that with your weight on your right leg. IMPOSSIBLE. The left knee coming in with a laterally static hip turn means his weight was either perfectly balanced between both legs or distributed more towards his LEFT leg. This departs from what most instructors teach right now, and what he wrote himself in his book!

[mc0388]

Minor quibbles aside, fine. But that's not really the point here, and Aaron's weight isn't very different from Hogan's distribution.

I disagree, Aaron's weight is forward and is always forward on his swing. Hogan was back and his weight is on the way forward at the top of his backswing. This difference leaves Hogan with more power coming into his downswing. (possibly a reason that S&T; swingers aren't known for there power)

His hands never really leave the slot. He didn't have much lift, so he never had to drop them into the slot. They're "slotted" throughout his swing.

I agree with this, he is on plain the entire swing

I don't know that I agree with that, but that's largely because I have no idea what you mean by "storing lag" anywhere let alone in your spine.

I generally disagree with how people define lag. I feel lag is the energy that is distributed to the club during your swing. Hogan has 'lag' stored in the club (as you can tell by the bend in the shaft at the top of the backswing (this also prompted the blurb about equipment)). As opposed to Aarons swing there is no noticeable bend in his club at the top. I would 'define' Aaron as having very little 'lag', but having significant 'torque' at his torso and spine. With that being said, I believe Hogan takes into account both, lag with the club and torque with his body.

You don't "store lag." Lag is simply a funct of the clubhead remaining on plane and the hands remaining hinged.

To avoid an argument (in which you seldom lose). "storing lag" is in my own words and Ill refrain from using again. But if what your saying is true, then just swinging from the hips, on plain, and with your hands hinged, would create lag. Your function doesn't include weight transfer or a proper shoulder turn?

I would like to keep this on topic, and that topic is "top of the backswing positions." I posit that Hogan was not reverse K at all, and that he was very close to Stack and Tilt.

I agree Hogan is not in a 'reverse K'. His swing, from the top down, looks similar to a S&T; swing,,,,,,,,,,,,

BUT, his backswing is much more dynamic and doesn't fit the definition of a S&T; swing.

[mc0388]

this was what i meant to quote.

Did you watch the same video I posted? His left knee comes in with no lateral motion (I agree), but wouldn't you have a tougher time doing that with weight 50/50 or favoring the front leg.

How can you bring your left knee in while there is weight on it?. When I originally posted he has his weight back, please don't assume 0%/100%, possibly 30/70 or 40/60.

[ddalet]

Did you watch the same video I posted? His left knee comes in with no lateral motion (I agree), but wouldn't you have a tougher time doing that with weight 50/50 or favoring the front leg.

Instead of posting like you are all knowing, why dont you stand up and try it.

I can bring my left knee in farther than that while only having my right toe on the ground. yet i cant do it without moving laterally while the majority of my weight is on my right side. to me it seems impossible not to move laterally while making the hip turn and bringing the knee that far in with my weight on my right side. But hey everyone swings differently... I ve been swigning a club since i was 7 or 8, which adds up to 20 or 21 years... and I cant do it.