Hogan vs. Stack and Tilt, an Exercise

[Andrew Rice]

Whether we are looking at Hogan or any other top level golfer, I do not believe we will find a golfer who possesses a reverse K while the club, arms and body are still winding in the backswing.
Hogan had a very dynamic swing and this led to the "impression" of a reverse K. In fact I think Faldo never really gots his hips back either and also gave the "impression" of a reverse K at the "top" of his backswing.

[mc0388]

Instead of posting like you are all knowing, why dont you stand up and try it.

???????????????????????

I can bring my left knee in farther than that while only having my right toe on the ground. yet i cant do it without moving laterally while the majority of my weight is on my right side. to me it seems impossible not to move laterally while making the hip turn and bringing the knee that far in with my weight on my right side. But hey everyone swings differently... I ve been swigning a club since i was 7 or 8, which adds up to 20 or 21 years... and I cant do it.

I've only stated what I see in the video and through my personal experiences.

Ive also been playing since about the age of 6, so I thats about 24 years of watching a lot of golf swings. Plus Im not sure we are disagreeing. I agree the weight needs to be towards the back leg for the front knee to come in that far... It looks to me that his weight starts shifted towards the back leg, which allows him to bring his left knee in, as much as he does, without the appearance of lateral movement.

[iacas]

I disagree, Aaron's weight is forward and is always forward on his swing. Hogan was back and his weight is on the way forward at the top of his backswing. This difference leaves Hogan with more power coming into his downswing. (possibly a reason that S&T; swingers aren't known for there power)

Most Stack and Tilt players have gained distance or at least stayed about the same. Almost none have given up distance. Charlie Wi gained distance, for example.

Troy Matteson is one of the longer hitters in the game today. The longer hitters don't think they need to change. They don't seek out Plummer and Bennett. I've gained 10% (percent, not yards) with my irons easily... and it's not like I was a short hitter before. I could probably gain a tad more if I could get the last few little tweaks in order.

I generally disagree with how people define lag.

Then you're looking into it too much. Lag is how far behind "impact position" the clubhead is. It's "wrist cock." That's it.

As opposed to Aarons swing there is no noticeable bend in his club at the top.

Aaron was posing (i.e. not moving) for pictures and Ben Hogan's pictures are

drawings .

But if what your saying is true, then just swinging from the hips, on plain, and with your hands hinged, would create lag. Your function doesn't include weight transfer or a proper shoulder turn?

I can create lag on a chip... lag is just the clubhead "lagging" behind the arms until you snap it into place by uncocking the wrists at impact. That's it... that's lag.

BUT, his backswing is much more dynamic and doesn't fit the definition of a S&T; swing.

But you've yet to say how... If you read what he says about the backswing - and if you look at the circles showing the hips and shoulders - it's VERY S&T.;

[mc0388]

But you've yet to say how... If you read what he says about the backswing - and if you look at the circles showing the hips and shoulders - it's VERY S&T.;

Ill just comment on this: His weight is back before he starts his swing. Its obvious by looking at his swing video. Not much maybe 35/65 with is weight favoring his back leg. Thats the difference. Other than that, sure he looks like an S&T; swing, from the top down...

[mc0388]

Thanks and I enjoyed reading everybody's thoughts.

I like your take on the golf swing.

[verse214]

The longer hitters don't think they need to change. They don't seek out Plummer and Bennett. I've gained 10% (percent, not yards) with my irons easily... and it's not like I was a short hitter before. I could probably gain a tad more if I could get the last few little tweaks in order.

Hey Erik - so I take it you're working with an S&T; teacher now based on what you wrote above? How long have you been at it and do you recommend it to others?

[iacas]

Hey Erik - so I take it you're working with an S&T; teacher now based on what you wrote above? How long have you been at it and do you recommend it to others?

I'll allow this brief diversion if we can keep it brief.

I've been working with him all year. I still know I'm not fully converted or anything, but I will say this... - It's not like what you think it is if you just read the magazine articles and stuff. - It's not that different from what you'd consider normal. I was already fairly well "stacked" but I took the club back too far to the inside (with my hands outside too much) and I didn't push forward well enough. Otherwise, my swing was already pretty well "stacked." And the "tilting" is sideways, not leaning back or leaning forwards, so... Only thing is there are less than 20 guys that are truly certified to teach this, so if you do try it (I recommend it, but bear in mind I have only "self-teaching" as a comparison), find one of those 18 or so guys. Now, back to topic, please.

[Andrew Rice]

Erik,
In an attempt to illustrate just how many top golfers pivot their bodies along the same lines as stack 'n tilt I have created a compilation of illustrations for all to view. (With your permission I will post this link http://www.andrewricegolf.com/?p=923 )
Granted they are all illustrations, but the were drawn from photographs of the individual players.
The line running up the side of the golfer is at 84 degrees and I have found that it is a very common trait amongst all the best golfers.
Let me know what you think.....

[jamo]

Erik,

84 degrees is only 6 away from straight up and down. I dont think there is much "stacking" there. It would be more believable if you had picture of their setups to compare to.

[iacas]

84 degrees is only 6 away from straight up and down. I dont think there is much "stacking" there. It would be more believable if you had picture of their setups to compare to.

Have you seen where he draws the 84 degree line? It's from their right foot to their shoulders/chest. 6 degrees towards the target is a significant amount, I'd say, since the "Reverse K" people would suggest you are actually at 90.

[jamo]

Have you seen where he draws the 84 degree line? It's from their right foot to their shoulders/chest. 6 degrees towards the target is a significant amount, I'd say, since the "Reverse K" people would suggest you are actually at 90.

Now i'm a little confused, based on the Hogan video on pg 2, and the Baddely picture, i would guess that they are more than 6 degrees from the vertical.

Also, dont think anybody is at 90, though i could be wrong. That would just be bad, way too much weight swift on the backswing. Also, comparative pictures of the player at setup would still be a good idea.

[iacas]

Now i'm a little confused, based on the Hogan video on pg 2, and the Baddely picture, i would guess that they are more than 6 degrees from the vertical.

Well, have a look at Andrew Rice's pictures. It's been linked to already, but here it is again:

http://www.andrewricegolf.com/?tag=84-degree-secret .

[Andrew Rice]

I think David hits the nail on the head by saying that Hogan and most of the top players (S'nT players included) have similarities. The primary similarity being body motion. These similarities are at the "core" of what Bennett and Plummer preach. As I alluded to earlier - they didn't just pull this philosophy out of a hat! The style and appearance of each swing might be different, but the core idea of "weight positioning" throughout the swing is a common thread.

In coming up with the 84 degree idea I only found two upper echelon golfers that broke the line with their body during the backswing - Gary Player and Seve Ballesteros. Two golfers that are not known for their ball striking prowess, but more their short game and ability to will the ball into the hole. All the other golfers from the last 60 years who won at least 3 majors have obeyed the 84 degree line. (When hitting an iron!)

Why could Ray Floyd, Nancy Lopez, and Lee Trevino make their ball go where they wanted it to the same way that Hogan, Jack and Tiger can? The style of every swing is different, but they all position their weight throughout the swing and, most importantly, at impact, in the same fashion. I believe this to be the primary fundamental in golf - as do Bennett and Plummer.

That is what all golfers can gain from reading through the many posts on this topic - Hogan had his own style, S'nT has its own style, Jack and Tiger each have their own style, but it's what they have in common that ultimately allows each unique swing to function at the ultimate level.

The premise being that there are many ways to swing a golf club, but there is only one way to hit a golf ball correctly.

[iacas]

Blake,

Butch beat me to it a little bit, but I'm not really interested in getting into it with you.

I think you're wrong in a lot of places or on some particulars, and I think Butch is right in pointing out that you can hit a fade from a Stack and Tilt position, too.

But mostly I'm not interested in getting into it because this thread's about pages 73 and 74 in the book, and the diagrams I posted, as well as the ones Hogan drew with the circles, and specifically how this refutes the "reverse K' theory.

This thread isn't about his takeaway or his impact position - just the position at the top.

[eat_sleep_golf]

IMHO. Hogan is not a Stack and Tilter. His head and weight stays far behind the ball. A stack and tilter starts left weighted and goes more left through the swing. The photos do present an interesting analysis, but the slo-mo video of Hogan posted from Youtube shows clearly he is behind the ball, not over it... Great post though, thanks!

[TMO]

I have a lot to say about this image but rather than go on, here is a short summary of what I am thinking:

1. Ben Hogan's Five Lessons describes what he had "felt" not necessarily did.
2. Numerous videos of Ben Hogan from pretty much his entire career look nothing like this (especially with his driver)
3. Towards the end of Hogan's career - when he was most accurate and had completely lost his dreaded hook - he stopped swaying with his hips but increased his upper body pivot.

[Mud ball]

My pro insists that you do NOT squeeze your elbows together, but rather let your arms hang down relaxed. Ben Hogan insists that you squeeze your elbows together. Anyone have any clarification on this?

Keeping my elbows close together makes my swing a whole lot prettier as well as more reliable... I've tried the squeezing thing - I've seen the way Tim Clarke sets up and I've imagined the elastic bands or sheets wrapped around my arms as illustrated in Ben Hogan's book. The problem for me is it has to be subtle...

If I s queeze - I introduce tension - tension doesn't work for me. I always play my best when my hands, wrists and arms are completely relaxed. So I try to keep my elbows as close together as that which a complete lack of tension will allow.

[Phil McGleno]

1. Ben Hogan's Five Lessons describes what he had "felt" not necessarily did.

Hogan knew what he felt more than anyone, ever. Modern guys think they do one thing and in reality do something totally different. Not Hogan. And the drawings were based on what he was actually doing, too. You don't think if the guy drew Hogan one way and Hogan didn't think that's what he did he'd pause? Or that they didn't have mirrors in his day?

2. Numerous videos of Ben Hogan from pretty much his entire career look nothing like this (especially with his driver)

Beg to differ. Hogan's spine was straighter than a lot of people and his head doesn't move back on the backswing.

You won't find much video of Hogan doing "nothing like this." Ol' Butchie isn't a super fan of Stack and Tilt, but at its core it's a great swing. The problem is people over-do things.

Towards the end of Hogan's career - when he was most accurate and had completely lost his dreaded hook - he stopped swaying with his hips but increased his upper body pivot.

He pivoted less in his older days. He wasn't as flexible. Pivot is turn, twisting - what are you talking about? Moving the base of his neck away from the target? That's a slide, not a pivot.

Two things caused Hogan to look far more "reverse K" than he ever was. First was the fact that his hips began moving towards the target before he completed his backswing. The second is that Hogan's "lower center" (middle of his hips, and I'm borrowing S&T; terminology here) actually moved towards the target in his backswing in his later years. Combine this with the early move towards the target and lots of still frames of Hogan at the top of his backswing show a "reverse K" look. The key is to look at his shoulders in relation to his feet - they're still centered like they were at address. His tailbone in some cases is off the inside of his front foot. You tried to post a few images yesterday. I may be old but I think I figured out which ones you were trying to link to: In none of those images is Hogan's shoulder back over his right foot. They're all almost exactly centered. TMO, can you tell us what you think tilting is in StackNTilt? I read your chat with that instructor and am not sure you have that down. And what about the back flexion/extension stuff that fellow was talking about? Can you describe a golfer's flexion throughout the swing?