All Golf Clubs made in China?

[GJBenn85]

Japan has developed a reputation for quality and precision, China has not.  China's reputation is cheap, cheap, cheap, which is why they have been able to dominate the world's manufacturing scene over the past 15 years.  China has terrible quality control, they are not trustworthy (again, read Poorly Made in China--it is enlightening), they do not respect patents and copyrights (bet 95% of knockoffs come straight from China), and their morals are in extreme conflict with most of the developed world.  These are the reasons China is poorly thought of.

Sure, there are plenty of Chinese factories pumping out top notch products but for every one good factory, there are 30 that pump out utter crap and they simply do not care and they are never held accountable.  I see it all the time with my line of work; what they deem "acceptable" is deemed "sh*t" in the U.S.  To have any quality control for production in China requires tremendous manpower on the ground which is expensive and difficult.  This is why when people see "Made in China," they automatically think of crappy goods.

For a lot of goods, Taiwan is the better alternative to China and their costs are not much more than China.  This holds true for fishing equipment, bicycle frames and components, electronics, etc.

In terms of overall quality (and consistency in quality):

-Japan

-Taiwan

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-China

Now reverse that list if you need to sort by cheapest to most expensive.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by GJBenn85

Japan has developed a reputation for quality and precision, China has not.  China's reputation is cheap, cheap, cheap, which is why they have been able to dominate the world's manufacturing scene over the past 15 years.  China has terrible quality control, they are not trustworthy (again, read Poorly Made in China--it is enlightening), they do not respect patents and copyrights (bet 95% of knockoffs come straight from China), and their morals are in extreme conflict with most of the developed world.  These are the reasons China is poorly thought of.

Sure, there are plenty of Chinese factories pumping out top notch products but for every one good factory, there are 30 that pump out utter crap and they simply do not care and they are never held accountable.  I see it all the time with my line of work; what they deem "acceptable" is deemed "sh*t" in the U.S.  To have any quality control for production in China requires tremendous manpower on the ground which is expensive and difficult.  This is why when people see "Made in China," they automatically think of crappy goods.

For a lot of goods, Taiwan is the better alternative to China and their costs are not much more than China.  This holds true for fishing equipment, bicycle frames and components, electronics, etc.

In terms of overall quality (and consistency in quality):

Some nice generalisations there.

[GJBenn85]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Some nice generalisations there.

What specifics do you want?  This thread is discussing the issues with Chinese made goods and why they tend to have a poor reputation even though SOME of their goods are actually high quality.  It is hard to not generalize when discussing this.

[badfish74]

I was actually kinda surprised when my Taylormade Burner 3 wood arrived and the sticker said it was made in Vietnam.

[newtogolf]

There are some generalisations, but in general products from China are substandard.  There have been numerous issues with toys for children having high lead content, choking issues due to parts falling off, and other quality issues.  It appears quality control isn't high in priority there, but I agree there are some exceptions.  Their complete refusal to respect copyright and patents at both a business and government level makes them even less credible.  They offer cheap labor because of the sheer number of people there, if the labor cost was the same as other countries (USA, Japan, Korea) most companies wouldn't utilize them.

Originally Posted by Shorty

Some nice generalisations there.

[GJBenn85]

Over the next 10 years, China is going to be facing a real issue with demand for higher labor rates.  It has already started to some degree, with wages going up about 20% (but when they make 40 cents per hour, it does not equate to much when you are on the receiving end).  Still, with the volume they put out that creates a real additional expense to both Chinese factories and ultimately their customers.  Some items are already going from China to other places like Vietnam and even India.  I have seen up to 25% increases in the goods I am involved in as far as overall costs since 2008, partly attributable to raw materials but mostly labor.

The country as a whole is going to be facing significant pressure to keep costs down because costs are their ONLY competitive advantage, and in my opinion they will partially offset the increasing labor costs by cutting quality.  They do not have a single other benefit to offer the world of tangible goods besides low costs, and there are other Asian countries that offer, overall, higher quality for not much more money (but the gap is still significant enough, as well as the infrastructure and other assets China has in place, to keep companies in China for the time being).

China already recognizes this which is one reason they are investing so heavily in natural resources around the world.  They are trying to tie up the raw material supply chain so countries are forced to utilize Chinese companies for production.  It is a brilliant tactic.

Originally Posted by newtogolf   They offer cheap labor because of the sheer number of people there, if the labor cost was the same as other countries (USA, Japan, Korea) most companies wouldn't utilize them.

[newtogolf]

The Chinese government also subsidized many of the manufacturers initially so they could ramp up production and offer significantly lower labor rates than other countries.  Now the subsidies have been lowered, cost of labor is increasing to the point where they will have to deal with competition from other countries.

[LBlack14]

The Man hit the nail right on the head. [quote name="Shorty" url="/t/38654/all-golf-clubs-made-in-china/54#post_675731"]

Some nice generalisations there.

[/quote][quote name="GJBenn85" url="/t/38654/all-golf-clubs-made-in-china/54#post_675729"]

Japan has developed a reputation for quality and precision, China has not.  China's reputation is cheap, cheap, cheap, which is why they have been able to dominate the world's manufacturing scene over the past 15 years.  China has terrible quality control, they are not trustworthy (again, read Poorly Made in China--it is enlightening), they do not respect patents and copyrights (bet 95% of knockoffs come straight from China), and their morals are in extreme conflict with most of the developed world.  These are the reasons China is poorly thought of.

Sure, there are plenty of Chinese factories pumping out top notch products but for every one good factory, there are 30 that pump out utter crap and they simply do not care and they are never held accountable.  I see it all the time with my line of work; what they deem "acceptable" is deemed "sh*t" in the U.S.  To have any quality control for production in China requires tremendous manpower on the ground which is expensive and difficult.  This is why when people see "Made in China," they automatically think of crappy goods.

For a lot of goods, Taiwan is the better alternative to China and their costs are not much more than China.  This holds true for fishing equipment, bicycle frames and components, electronics, etc.

In terms of overall quality (and consistency in quality):

-Japan

-Taiwan

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-China

Now reverse that list if you need to sort by cheapest to most expensive.

[/quote]

[x129]

Cheap products are cheap products no matter where they are made.  See american car quality in the 90s. The top chinese stuff these days is the best in the world. Do they have the reputation yet? Nope. But reputation trails reality. Japanese cars were considered crap long after they had become the most reliable cars on the road. Same thing happened to american cars. People consider them crap because of experiences in the 80s and 90s that no longer apply.

Originally Posted by GJBenn85

Japan has developed a reputation for quality and precision, China has not.  China's reputation is cheap, cheap, cheap, which is why they have been able to dominate the world's manufacturing scene over the past 15 years.  China has terrible quality control, they are not trustworthy (again, read Poorly Made in China--it is enlightening), they do not respect patents and copyrights (bet 95% of knockoffs come straight from China), and their morals are in extreme conflict with most of the developed world.  These are the reasons China is poorly thought of.

Sure, there are plenty of Chinese factories pumping out top notch products but for every one good factory, there are 30 that pump out utter crap and they simply do not care and they are never held accountable.  I see it all the time with my line of work; what they deem "acceptable" is deemed "sh*t" in the U.S.  To have any quality control for production in China requires tremendous manpower on the ground which is expensive and difficult.  This is why when people see "Made in China," they automatically think of crappy goods.

For a lot of goods, Taiwan is the better alternative to China and their costs are not much more than China.  This holds true for fishing equipment, bicycle frames and components, electronics, etc.

In terms of overall quality (and consistency in quality):

-Japan

-Taiwan

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-China

Now reverse that list if you need to sort by cheapest to most expensive.

[GJBenn85]

Originally Posted by x129

Cheap products are cheap products no matter where they are made.  See american car quality in the 90s. The top chinese stuff these days is the best in the world. Do they have the reputation yet? Nope. But reputation trails reality. Japanese cars were considered crap long after they had become the most reliable cars on the road. Same thing happened to american cars. People consider them crap because of experiences in the 80s and 90s that no longer apply.

Yes, no one denies the build quality of say MacBook Pros, iPads, and iPhones, which are all manufactured in China.  But like I said, for every 1 high quality item that comes out of China, the factories produce 30 items of extremely poor quality.  It is incredibly difficult to find factories that care about the quality they put out, let alone recognize faults when they occur without the extreme supervision of auditors and on-site QC staff of their customers.

Even despite some of the high quality items they produce, China has a long road ahead of them before they have a reputation that is synonymous with quality.  By the time that occurs, some other Asian country will rise to take over production because China's labor rates will have increased to a point they no longer have a cost advantage over Taiwan or Japan.  If you think another Asian country cannot rise up to the challenge, think again.  China's "production revolution" has only occurred in the past 22 years, and it really only took off at the turn of the century.

[x129]

I would worry more that they decide that polluted rivers and toxic waste dumps are actually not ok. Wages get all the press but they are minor factor in a lot of production these days. You can have a chip plant with almost zero workers. You can't have a chip plant without a crap load of nasty chemicals.

Outsourcing (doesn't matter if it is production, QA, engineering)  to a third party is always trick as the parties don't always have the same goals.

Originally Posted by GJBenn85

Yes, no one denies the build quality of say MacBook Pros, iPads, and iPhones, which are all manufactured in China.  But like I said, for every 1 high quality item that comes out of China, the factories produce 30 items of extremely poor quality.  It is incredibly difficult to find factories that care about the quality they put out, let alone recognize faults when they occur without the extreme supervision of auditors and on-site QC staff of their customers.

Even despite some of the high quality items they produce, China has a long road ahead of them before they have a reputation that is synonymous with quality.  By the time that occurs, some other Asian country will rise to take over production because China's labor rates will have increased to a point they no longer have a cost advantage over Taiwan or Japan.  If you think another Asian country cannot rise up to the challenge, think again.  China's "production revolution" has only occurred in the past 22 years, and it really only took off at the turn of the century.

[jgreen85]

Quote:

Originally Posted by WUTiger

None

Two things encourage outsourcing of manufacturing:

* US government maintains a corporate tax rate of 38%. Only place higher is Japan, unless you're in Ohio or a couple of other states, where US plus state tax rate = higher than Japan. Cut the tax rate, and US firms would be more likely to increase operations in US.

The corporate income tax rate is on profits. The clubs are manufactured in China and are sold in the states. The companies pay that tax rate because the profits are earned here. That tax rate has ZERO impact on a firm's decision to manufacturer these products here or in China.

The real reason is more to do with the working conditions in China versus here. Google why the iphone is made in China for a good article describing how manufacturers are able to drive efficiency. It's really not the wages per se as there are shipping costs and the counterfeiting etc involved. It's that the companies are able to be so much more efficient in China due to how the employees essentially live for the company, often living on-site.

Anyone who tells you lowering the corporate tax rate will bring back manufacturing jobs is lying to you. It could potentially increase the number of businsesses started and operated, but will not return manufactuing because a corporate income tax is paid on profits made in the U.S.

[The Tin Man]

China is working towards becoming the worlds largest ship builder.  Chinese ships are a lot like their counterfeit clubs. They look good from a distance, cost less then half the competition and quickly self destruct.  The designs are European/Korean. Made in China under license from  European and Korean companies. The quality some how got lost in the process.

You would not believe the daily death toll at these ship yards. Yes, I wrote DAILY DEATH TOLL.  There's no safety training, and a general ignorance of things mechanical.  They build a ship yard on your rice patty and now you build ships.

I have been there and have to go back.

Coming to a beach near you..........Chinese Supertankers.

PS:  They make parts for the airlines too.

[handlez42]

Originally Posted by GJBenn85

Japan has developed a reputation for quality and precision, China has not.  China's reputation is cheap, cheap, cheap, which is why they have been able to dominate the world's manufacturing scene over the past 15 years.  China has terrible quality control, they are not trustworthy (again, read Poorly Made in China--it is enlightening), they do not respect patents and copyrights (bet 95% of knockoffs come straight from China), and their morals are in extreme conflict with most of the developed world.  These are the reasons China is poorly thought of.

Sure, there are plenty of Chinese factories pumping out top notch products but for every one good factory, there are 30 that pump out utter crap and they simply do not care and they are never held accountable.  I see it all the time with my line of work; what they deem "acceptable" is deemed "sh*t" in the U.S.  To have any quality control for production in China requires tremendous manpower on the ground which is expensive and difficult.  This is why when people see "Made in China," they automatically think of crappy goods.

For a lot of goods, Taiwan is the better alternative to China and their costs are not much more than China.  This holds true for fishing equipment, bicycle frames and components, electronics, etc.

In terms of overall quality (and consistency in quality):

-Japan

-Taiwan

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-xxx

-China

Now reverse that list if you need to sort by cheapest to most expensive.

china is cheap because they are paid cheap...in other words we, meaning the US are to lazy to do the job ourselves and pay cheap to do it quick and easy. japan makes things how they prefer which isnt quick or cheap and is consistent quality. if we paid china more we wouldnt get cheap products....the difference is china will take any money you give and give you what you paid for. japan will make it themselves and charge as much of the quality of the product. so its just backwards.

it relates to everything from china which obviously affects the golf market as well.

[GJBenn85]

Originally Posted by handlez42

china is cheap because they are paid cheap...in other words we, meaning the US are to lazy to do the job ourselves and pay cheap to do it quick and easy. japan makes things how they prefer which isnt quick or cheap and is consistent quality. if we paid china more we wouldnt get cheap products....the difference is china will take any money you give and give you what you paid for. japan will make it themselves and charge as much of the quality of the product. so its just backwards.

it relates to everything from china which obviously affects the golf market as well.

It's not that we are too lazy, it is that we are too rich and expect wages that make American made goods noncompetitive.  Look at UAW workers--they want to be paid $40-60/hr to slap in pieces of plastic or a few bolts?  The vehicle assembly lines are tremendously automated including tools that tighten bolts to predetermined specifications at the press of a button, and yet the unions demand high wages plus benefits for it.  This is true for virtually all modern developed countries.  Goods would easily be manufactured in the U.S. if consumers were willing to open their wallets even more than they already do, or factory workers were willing to make less money.

Regarding the comment in bold, this is not necessarily true.  You can give China a lot more money than goods are worth on the market and they will still have a tendency to take shortcuts.  It is in their culture to cut costs/save money wherever possible (which on one hand is admirable, even making forty cents an hour, a Chinese worker will save more in one year than a typical American given America's tendency to spend more than we make).  You have factories that are being paid specific amounts (based on Chinese bids for the work) to do specific manufacturing to specific specs, and they still cut corners.  Case in point, most recently dealt with an issue where a factory was supposed to place nylon reinforcement in a leather loop that attaches to a buckle.  They were paid to do this and chose to blatantly disregard the specs.  The factory cut corners trying to save material costs (even though they were being paid MORE to do it) and did not sew in the reinforcement, and now the leather is ripping at the buckles due to stress.  This affects not only the customer's immediate costs but also reputation as consumers begin to associate a certain brand with poor quality.  If these issues occurred in the U.S., you could seek legal remedy.  If they occur in China, you are largely SOL.  I have seen defect rates as high as 60% from Chinese produced goods at prices that rival competitors, but the common denominator is that when these high defect rates occur, it has been because the factories were not being supervised.  Without supervision, they will produce crap and ship out the same crap.  With supervision, they will produce some crap and ship out only part of it.

China has the ability to become synonymous with quality but it will take a complete change in values for it to occur.  Simply pumping more money their way will not accomplish it.

[newtogolf]

The U.S. labor force due partially to unions has priced itself out of the market.  It's not the these people are lazy it's that their income expectations exceed what companies wish to pay given options over seas.  There was a time after World War 2 when Japan was the current day China, labor was cheap in Japan and people perceived products from there as being substandard.  Japan has worked hard to overcome this perception but to do so resulted in a significant increase to their cost of labor.  Japan is now outsourcing to China because they can't compete with their cost of labor.  Korea has followed a similar path as well.  Over time China will go through a similar transition and another country will take their place.

Originally Posted by handlez42

china is cheap because they are paid cheap...in other words we, meaning the US are to lazy to do the job ourselves and pay cheap to do it quick and easy. japan makes things how they prefer which isnt quick or cheap and is consistent quality. if we paid china more we wouldnt get cheap products....the difference is china will take any money you give and give you what you paid for. japan will make it themselves and charge as much of the quality of the product. so its just backwards.

it relates to everything from china which obviously affects the golf market as well.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by jgreen85

The corporate income tax rate is on profits. The clubs are manufactured in China and are sold in the states. The companies pay that tax rate because the profits are earned here. That tax rate has ZERO impact on a firm's decision to manufacturer these products here or in China.

The real reason is more to do with the working conditions in China versus here. Google why the iphone is made in China for a good article describing how manufacturers are able to drive efficiency. It's really not the wages per se as there are shipping costs and the counterfeiting etc involved. It's that the companies are able to be so much more efficient in China due to how the employees essentially live for the company, often living on-site.

Anyone who tells you lowering the corporate tax rate will bring back manufacturing jobs is lying to you. It could potentially increase the number of businsesses started and operated, but will not return manufactuing because a corporate income tax is paid on profits made in the U.S.

I read that article, too.

As long as executive compensation is tied to stock options, we won't have multinationals in the USA.

The multi-nationals don't give a hoot about patriotism when it comes to business -- it's about the bottom line, themselves, and their shareholders - but mostly themselves - the executives. They don't mind ravaging the worker, the environment, or the country where they manufacture as long as they don't have regulations and they have efficiency -- they don't care. It's a long a vicious cycle.

It's all about them. They do not care about you.

Remember that phrase when you hear a multinational crab about our laws. They don't care for their country when it comes to business. There is only one god and his name is "drive that stock price up."

Stock options -- they are the bane of mankind.

Tie compensation to responsible profit and you change their behavior. Until then, adios.

What we must do is capture the R&D;, the high tech planning, etc., and small to medium manufacturers  owned by entrepreneurs who are patriotic to some extent. And then we have the high end manufacturers like autos, etc, in the south.

[Mr. Desmond]

Back to Golf club manufacturing -- there is Thailand, Japan, and heck, probably VIetnam, in addition to China.