Driver distance vs. Handicap

[Fourputt]

On the majority of courses I would much rather be hitting 9i from the rough than 6i from the fairway. Unless the pin is short sided and I need spin.

Not on my home course he wouldn't... at least it's not likely. If you're in the rough that much you are defintely going to have tree trouble more than once, and that's going to leave you playing for bogey or worse, depending on your short game. If you hit 40% to his 80% fairways, no matter if you are 30 yards longer, it's not going to be much of a contest, all else being equal.

If the rough isn't particularly punishing, then maybe you have a case, but it's not something I'd bet on.

[jamo]

The length vs. accuracy debate is kind of a bad argument. Does being in the rough come with the possibility of being behind a tree? Or in a dead patch? What's your lie like? Do you have an angle to the green? Can you get an accurate distance to the green (if you don't have a GPS, rangefinder)? How tall is the rough (sometimes the first cut can actually be an advantage)?

And on the flip side- does being in the fairway give you an increased likelihood of being in a divot? How tight is the lie?

If you say everything but grass height is the same, I would take 30 yards further (as in a 9i vs a 6i or 5i) and in the first or second cut over 30 yards back and in the fairway a lot of the time. But, too be honest, it's not something I even think of when I play. I'm no less accurate with a driver than with a hybrid, 3 wood, or long iron, however the driver gives me added distance.

This really doesn't have a whole lot to do with the original thread topic though.

[ghalfaire]

Imagine player A averages 225 yards off the tee (on driver holes) and his FIR stat is 80%.

yes distance can make the difference if everything else is equal. But that has nothing to do with if he shorter player can be good enough with the rest of his game to be a single digit handicap.

I couldn't disagree more with the bolded comment. I think the scores would 5 to 7 shots better then normal. you are giving a guy who normally hits a handfull of fairways on a good day , a better lie from roughly 40 or more yards closer to the hole. unless he has the worst short game in history he is going score better then he typically does. and even if has the worse short game he would still have to be way ahead of where he typically is.

Perhaps you're right. But this guy isn't very good at his short game either so maybe he won't do better. I guess I fall on the side of the short game is more important to your final score than driving performance and so doubt that in 10 rounds the higher handicap player would do better. But of course on any given round he might just as he might if he had to hit his own drives. That is the problem with statistics, they are predictors of outcomes for a large number of trials, not of a single experiment.

Perhaps you're right. But this guy isn't very good at his short game either so maybe he won't do better. I guess I fall on the side of the short game is more important to your final score than driving performance and so doubt that in 10 rounds the higher handicap player would do better. But of course on any given round he might just as he might if he had to hit his own drives. That is the problem with statistics, they are predictors of outcomes for a large number of trials, not of a single experiment.

I guess for the record I'm not arguing that driver distance isn't a factor in your final score, just that there are a lot of other things in golf more important to your final score.

[sean_miller]

I guess for the record I'm not arguing that driver distance isn't a factor in your final score, just that there are a lot of other things in golf more important to your final score.

Did you say that a high handicapper playing every hole starting with the second shot, using whatever tee shot a pro made took for him, would not shoot any better score than if he'd hit his own tee shot? I must have read that wrong because that's not even remotely possible.

yes distance can make the difference if everything else is equal. But that has nothing to do with if he shorter player can be good enough with the rest of his game to be a single digit handicap.

I guess my comment is that nothing is equal. The number of short hitting single digit cappers I've played with in the past 10 years is pretty close to zero.

[Gerald]

Current hc 5.2 - average Drive about 250 - 275 yds.

At the start of this season it was around 300 - 325 yds, I still can hit it that long, but I prefer being on the fairway, so I went to a little less tempo, and now it is about 75% in the fairway or just off into the first cut.

[newtogolf]

Did you say that a high handicapper playing every hole starting with the second shot, using whatever tee shot a pro made took for him, would not shoot any better score than if he'd hit his own tee shot? I must have read that wrong because that's not even remotely possible.

A high handicapper would obviously have a better high score if a pro hit a tee shot since most high handicappers don't have great control or distance with their driver. The point Rotello was making in his book was that he believes if one had to choose between driver distance and a good short game, the short game would win.

[casperino101]

Agree with some of the other posts, i avg about 240 to 250 and play off 16, but its all about putting your ball in play! The old saying goes, '' driving for show, putting for dough'' round the greens is where you pick your shots up!

[sean_miller]

A high handicapper would obviously have a better high score if a pro hit a tee shot since most high handicappers don't have great control or distance with their driver. The point Rotello was making in his book was that he believes if one had to choose between driver distance and a good short game, the short game would win.

For one, he's not a pasta dish, it's Rotella, with an A.

A person playing a 425 yard hole with Driver/9-iron will likely score better than the guy who needs Driver/3-wood/LW just to get there. Putting and wedge play are important. Duh. Being able to reach all the greens in regulation with a mid-iron at most is also an advantage. Driver distance is not overrated. People who can hit their driver consistetly > 280 can often hit their long irons just as far as short knockers hit their drivers. They don't necessarily go on about short game prowess because they don't need to rely on it as much. When they mention a flubbed wedge it means it left them on the front apron instead of beside the hole.

[golfro]

For one, he's not a pasta dish, it's Rotella, with an A.

good post. anytime this distance debate comes about, everybody flocks to the safe saying "i'd rather have accuracy than distance".

Sure, accuracys important but if you're neglective the importance of distance, you're lieing to yourself. on a 425 yard hole, a short hitter hits his driver 220 yards...which leaves him with 200 yards to go. He hits a 3 wood (which is also not the easiest club to hit), whos to say it doesn't end up in the rough? Long iron/wood approach shot adds for less accurate shots, just as a tee shot is.

[Fourputt]

For one, he's not a pasta dish, it's Rotella, with an A.

I know a few of those who hit that far consistently, but as mentioned above, they are often in so much trouble due to inaccuracy that the length hurts as often as it helps. In any argument like this you have to qualify the statements. Is the guy long and accurate? Long and crooked? Short and crooked? Short and straight? If you can't get the ball in play regularly, then it doesn't mean any more than a dog's fart how far you hit it. It's still going to stink, and so will your score. If you rarely miss fairways by more than small bit, then longer is better, unless the course has unusually punishing rough.

My point is that length alone just isn't enough. About half of the guys who play in my flight in the Men's Club hit the ball 20-40 yards farther than I do, while a few are shorter than I am. But we all carry handicaps in the same range because other parts of our games make up for our success or failure off the tee.

[sean_miller]

I know a few of those who hit that far consistently, but as mentioned above, they are often in so much trouble due to inaccuracy that the length hurts as often as it helps. In any argument like this you have to qualify the statements. Is the guy long and accurate? Long and crooked? Short and crooked? Short and straight? If you can't get the ball in play regularly, then it doesn't mean any more than a dog's fart how far you hit it. It's still going to stink, and so will your score. If you rarely miss fairways by more than small bit, then longer is better, unless the course has unusually punishing rough.

This doesn't refute my statement that driving distance is not overrated. In the sentence immediately following the one you highlighted I implied that a longer hitter can hit less club, thus increasing their odds of hitting the fairway, then still be longer off the tee than a shorter hitter (often times this strategic decision is not considered by Joe Lunchpail and he hits OB - hence the 12 index) and even if he's the same distance off the tee as the shorter hitter, he should theoretically be hitting less club into the green.

If one were to compare two guys with similar short game skills and similar FIR stats, the guy hitting less club into the green should get a lower score at the end of the day. If he doesn't, then he has some other shortcomings that would be even more problematic if he was 40 yards shorter off the tee.

[Jaywun]

230 carry ; 11.1

[luckyluke699]

What stops me hitting my drives 300 yards and still being a high handicapper? Nothing as far as I can see, could easily happen by hitting some drives OOB, and not being able to hit approach shots or putt...?

[Gerald]

Hmmmm it ends up like most times before, but still I believe that if you can give it a good WHACK landing at the Fairway or close, you give yourself a great opportunity to make a birdie. I restarted with golf after a 15+ year layoff and I was a longhitter when I was about 25 ..... so Picking up the long game was easier than I thought it would be. At the start of this season at every tee (not at the Par 3's) I took a HUGE (460 cc) Driver out of the bag, teed the ball up and just tried to get it close ...... I have been walking from teen to green and had people asking my buddies if this was their second shot, "No it is the first from that guy (that was me)...... I had some 330+ drives.

I already forgot how many times they were in the woods, the lake etc..... but the few times I put my Tee shot near the green of a 350 par 4 or had an easy 7i second shot par 5 ..... and made an easy birdie ...... these are "framed"

As soon as I became better at the short game, I could ease off the driver a bit, now I am more at the Fairway and I can still reach most greens with a mid iron at average Par 4's.

On longer Par 4's with enough room I still go for the real WHACK ..... as it really makes a huge difference when you can hit an 8i to the green or you have to use a 3 iron of 5 wood to reach the green.

So in all I think it is important that you can hit a long distance drive, as most lowcappers will be able to. Some highcappers will be able to hit 275+, but may lack consistency ..... in other words, if a superior drive is followed by poor short game, it is mostly a highcapper......

Lowcappers will have a superior short game + putting and there are almost no lowcappers that don't hit their drives at least 250 yds.

If you are shorter, you will most likely have a lowest hc of about 6 - 8 !

[TN94z]

For one, he's not a pasta dish, it's Rotella, with an A.

I have to agree with this. Driver distance is a HUGE advantage IMO, as long as you are accurate. I have a friend that is crazy long. He is the closest to anyone I have seen to averaging 300 on his drives (yeah, yeah, I have read all of these discussions before and I know the difference between average and not an average). We go to the same teacher and he is the record holder for carry with the teacher. His short game was always his issue and he has been working on that for a year or so now with our teacher. It has gotten leaps and bounds better and now the driver distance is paying off. I mean on par 5s when I am going driver, 5i to get to a green in two....he is driver 9i and it makes a huge difference.

Distance is a handicap if you aren't accurate....but if you can get it close to the fairway and in it....you gain a stroke.

[Stretch]

Lowcappers will have a superior short game + putting and there are almost no lowcappers that don't hit their drives at least 250 yds.

And I have to agree with this. Remember that if you are short with the driver you are likely proportionately short with the irons too due to the exact same swing flaws. I've managed to sneak into the high single figures getting maybe 230 yards off the tee and taking a six iron from the 150 markers, but have no illusions about going much lower hitting it like that. Unless you are a shit-hot putter -- which I emphatically am not -- you won't make birdies and if you don't make any birdies you don't have any room for error. Piss a shot away and it's gone for good.

Anyway, luckily my own short knocking is a technique issue rather than a physical limitation, so I've been working on plugging the power leaks and think it's slowly coming around. I'm starting to middle a few drives a round that leave me with 8 iron approaches rather than the customary 5 iron. And the short target green on our range has gone from a full nine a couple of months ago to an easy 52* gap wedge today.

[Shanks A Million]

So, lets reiterate. Many of you can't hit the ball consistently enough to be a single digit handicap, yet you can somehow hit the exact center of your 46" drivers at 115 mph every time, yet can't somehow control the direction? Sounds reasonable...

[Zach Attack]

255 average and Im a 15. Driver is my best club though and if I get after it, I can definitely get the ball out to 280-290. Ive never blasted pass 300 though without the help of a sprinkler head or a down sloped fairway.

Id also say that my fairway percentage is very high, probably 75%. My irons and short game kill me though.