How bad is the sandbagging at your club?

[Todd Ruggere]

Not sure if you guys play in Inner Clubs, or Associations at your clubs, but im just wondering how bad the sandbagging is at your home course?

When i first started at my old club there was about 70 people in our weekend group. I think when i started there my home course handicap was a 4 and i remember a few people laughing. THey were laughing because they knew that as a 4 handicap I'd be almost sure not to cash very much. Most other captains were 7 and 8s, but were as good as me. Some of the 15 handicaps id have to play good to beat. They'd be incredible when the big money tourneys were on the line, and crappy during the week. Or if we were playing the 1 best ball, you would see them hockeying it around on the hole. The thing that i couldnt' believe the most about sandbaggin is that people would advertise out loud that they need some bad rounds since the big tourneys are coming up. It was known that almost everyone did it. Does anyone else play at a club like this?

I have since moved and play at a different course.

[Mrd19abhs]

That would suck to be apart of. If everyone is sandbagging there is no real point in it since everyone does it. I could see a few ppl doing it but almost the whole club makes no sense since everyone is doing it, it doesnt give you an advantage over the majortiy.

@ my club there is one know sandbagger who has ruined the tourneys @ the club in past and now hardly anyone competes in them. We now have a handicap committe that is in place to stop this(or attempt to).

[Todd Ruggere]

Originally Posted by Mrd19abhs

That would suck to be apart of. If everyone is sandbagging there is no real point in it since everyone does it. I could see a few ppl doing it but almost the whole club makes no sense since everyone is doing it, it doesnt give you an advantage over the majortiy.

@ my club there is one know sandbagger who has ruined the tourneys @ the club in past and now hardly anyone competes in them. We now have a handicap committe that is in place to stop this(or attempt to).

I always say there should be a tourney handicap. Guys would go out during the week and play by themselves and the card goes in and they shoot like 20 over which they would never do in a tourney

[westcyderydin]

What is think is worse and way more prevalent is people confronting or jabbing people for sandbagging.  You know what i can make a birdie and a couple pars in a row but that doesnt mean i cant lose it and end up with a couple doubles and a triple.

i guess i am less worried about winning a handicapped league and just want to shoot the best possible score i can.  i dont really like handicaps and dont like to get caught up that i lose a hole that i birdie so i just worry about my score.

[Stretch]

Play by the rules and enter all your scores. Then you can, in good conscience, tell anyone calling you a sandbagger to go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.

[clubchamp]

I'm sure we do have some at the club I play but luckily I'm usually in the championship flight so you don't really run into many sandbaggers. I won't play in any general handicap tournies not because of sandbaggers but just in general you're more likely to see a 20 handicap shoot 85 than a 1 shooting a 66.

[Todd Ruggere]

The first time i was introduced to sandbagging was at the Dupont tourney in Myrtle Beach. Its open to anyone. The guy that won was an 18 handicap and he shot something like 81-80-80.. I remember i was only like 15 at the time and was asking my father how he was allowed to do that.. an 18 handicapper cannot should those 3 rounds back to back to back its literally impossible.

[Lefty-Golfer]

it is not a big deal at my club. there may a few but i honestly haven't run into them. IMO i think there are more guys with low HC kind of like a vanity #...there are several lower then me that i would have no problem playing straight up.

As far as tournament rounds some guys just play their best golf in tournaments. it may have something to do with getting a good night sleep or the fact they can go to the club in the morning and have a coffee and hit the range before playing or the fact the office / clients aren't calling and emailing them on a weekend...or whatever. Maybe i am just justifing the fact that my scores in tournaments are better then my HC #...but my most of my golf comes during business hours and i never leave the phone in the car.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Sandbagging is generally worse when there's money involved, at least from my perspective it is.

I play golf with family members more often than not and find that when we're playing friendly games with no betting their handicaps are 16 and 18 respectively.

The last time we went out for one of their birthdays and there were 3 4-ball groups all playing and betting their handicaps went up from 16 to 18 and from 18 to 23 respectively. The reasons were "because I've played bad lately" and "because I've not played for 2 months"

The 18 to 23 guy came in at the end of the round with 44 points in Stableford and won the overall bets. Bandits! ;)

[LargeMarge]

When i was young and could actually score I used to play NCGA events in california and it used to be pretty bad - over a 4 round event some players (usually claiming about a 15 handicap)  would post score 2-6 strokes less than their handicap during the course of a tournament. Occasionally those players would get penalty strokes and sometimes get their handicap index revoked. On events played in Oakland, CA they'd get their tires slashed in the parking lot.

-LM

[Fairway_CY]

Our club plays nothing BUT handicapped tournaments.  Typically, the winning net score is going to be around 67.  Everybody knows that and has that score in mind when playing.  The handicaps in the club range from 0.3 to the maximum.  There's always the talk of sandbaggers... but this club monitors the guys closely.  For instance, last season... a guy won a tournament with a net 62.  His course handicap was 25 and he shot a gross 87.  Two weeks later, I played him in a match.  His course handicap there was a 26.  He ended up shooting 115 for a gross score of 89.  So, even though guys joked around and gave him crap for the net 62... everybody knew it was a legit round and one of 'those' rounds where everything seemed to click.

Thing is... I despise the term sandbagger.  It's been thrown at me before.  Two years ago, I started my season really late (July) because of work and our financial situation.  The previous few years, I hadn't really played golf and my handicap was pretty high (25.7).  I made a conscious decision to improve through practice.  I spent a good amount of time on the range and putting green.  My first round of the season was at a course that has my number... and I shot a 109 which was a gross 79.  I played two more rounds in early July which lowered my handicap a bit as I put together back-to-back net 70's.  I entered a tournament and posted a net 69 in the first round which allowed me to advance to the final round in 7th place... and then I posted a net 81 and finished a few spots higher than last place.

I was pissed, so I spent the next 3 weeks doing nothing but practicing on the range.  I hit a TON of balls and really started to feel a groove with my swing for the first time in my life.  I played a few rounds at my home course before the club championship began and dropped my handicap from 25.4 to 24.0 in that time frame.  I went into the club championship playing really well and in the qualifying round, I posted a net 62 which actually qualified me as the second seed.  I KNEW I was going to hear some accusations, but I didn't care because I knew my score was legit.  After the qualifying round, it became match play.  In the next two rounds I posted net scores of 71 and 66 and won my matches 1 Up and 5 & 3.  The championship match was 36 holes.  On the first 18, I posted a net 68 and was leading 1 Up.  I fell apart on the second 18 and posted a net 80 en route to losing the match 6 & 4.

I finished up my season with a net 42 (+11) on an executive course in September and then put my clubs away until February.  I joined a different club in the offseason and focused on improving at the range during that time.  I began my 2010 season with an index of 23.0 even.  By the middle of July, my index sat at 16.8 but I didn't win a single tournament.  I'm now sitting at 16.7 beginning the 2011 season in April.

A lot of people will call that sandbagging... but the fact of the matter is that ANYBODY who has a high handicap will improve at some point if they practice enough.  You can't improve your index without posting lower scores.  So, naturally... anybody with a higher index who practices is going to be called a sandbagger.

My goal for the 2011 season is to lower my handicap to around the 10.0 - 12.0 range.  I know I've got the skill to get there if I practice enough... but just because I post the occassional 66 and my scores are consistently in the 70 - 74 range does not make me a sandbagger.

I'll have this argument with anybody.  That 'probability' table where a 20 handicap would shoot a net 67 only 1 time out of 10,000 rounds is bogus because it DOESN'T take improvement into account.  It's using a mathematical equation which uses static numbers.  A handicap is a fluctuating number that requires a human analog.

Just my opinion...

CY

[Fourputt]

We don't typically have any issues with sandbagging because we have an active handicap committee.  They keep up with the handicaps, especially in the middle to lower flights, and are quick to adjust a player's handicap to typical tournament levels if a problem shows up.  It may at times take a couple of tournaments for a trend to show up, but it is addressed as soon as possible.

In our club nobody has to compete against anyone too far outside of his handicap range unless he plays in one of our handicap match play tournaments.  We flight all of our stroke tournaments, so you are generally playing straight up against guys within 2 or 3 strokes of you.  A 2 handicap will never be pitted against a 15 in individual stroke play.  Any competition which does that is not using the handicap system as it's designed to be implemented.

[runyans]

My club is pretty small. Something like 180 members. It is pretty tough to sandbag our club tournaments mainly because the main group plays with each other throughout the year and knows who is capable at what. If you are playing well in a tournament, most of the time you will get heat about being a sandbagger but it is all in good fun for the most part.

One thing I have learned in playing with the group that I do.

If no one is complaining about your handicap, then you aren't playing well enough.

[Lefty-Golfer]

Originally Posted by runyans

My club is pretty small. Something like 180 members. It is pretty tough to sandbag our club tournaments mainly because the main group plays with each other throughout the year and knows who is capable at what. If you are playing well in a tournament, most of the time you will get heat about being a sandbagger but it is all in good fun for the most part.

One thing I have learned in playing with the group that I do.

If no one is complaining about your handicap, then you aren't playing well enough.

that is funny

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by Todd Ruggere

The first time i was introduced to sandbagging was at the Dupont tourney in Myrtle Beach. Its open to anyone. The guy that won was an 18 handicap and he shot something like 81-80-80.. I remember i was only like 15 at the time and was asking my father how he was allowed to do that.. an 18 handicapper cannot should those 3 rounds back to back to back its literally impossible.

If that happened at my club the golfer would have had his/her handicap adjusted downward for exceptional play in tournaments.  The USGA requires that.  Here is the site to look at.

http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-11/#11-6

[mdl]

I've never been a member of a club, and never played in a tourney, so maybe my question is dumb.  But I've always wondered why clubs don't just use only past tourney raw scores to create tourney handicaps for members.

Maybe first tourney you're auto scratch, then the next 4 you're allowed to use your out-of-tourney HC, then once you have 5 tournaments you've played in your tournament handicap is calculated only from your raw scores in those tournaments.  You could even use this kind of thing in regional tournaments where only some set of clubs are invited.  People complain about sandbagging all the time here, but it seems like this is such an easy fix.

Yeah, it's true that if you're really working hard and improving a lot and only play in a club tournament a couple times a year, then you'd have scores from tournaments 1+ years ago in your HC, and that would give you an advantage, but it seems a lot better to give the advantage to people who are working hard to improve their game but only have time for tourneys every 3 months rather than to the a-holes who stick around at the same HC but card some 98s to make sure they can win money at the club tourneys...

I take it from people's comments about the HC committee needing to be active that the committee is supposed to do this on a case by case basis.  But why not just make it systematic and save the trouble and accusations?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by mdl

I've never been a member of a club, and never played in a tourney, so maybe my question is dumb.  But I've always wondered why clubs don't just use only past tourney raw scores to create tourney handicaps for members.

Maybe first tourney you're auto scratch, then the next 4 you're allowed to use your out-of-tourney HC, then once you have 5 tournaments you've played in your tournament handicap is calculated only from your raw scores in those tournaments.  You could even use this kind of thing in regional tournaments where only some set of clubs are invited.  People complain about sandbagging all the time here, but it seems like this is such an easy fix.

Yeah, it's true that if you're really working hard and improving a lot and only play in a club tournament a couple times a year, then you'd have scores from tournaments 1+ years ago in your HC, and that would give you an advantage, but it seems a lot better to give the advantage to people who are working hard to improve their game but only have time for tourneys every 3 months rather than to the a-holes who stick around at the same HC but card some 98s to make sure they can win money at the club tourneys...

I take it from people's comments about the HC committee needing to be active that the committee is supposed to do this on a case by case basis.  But why not just make it systematic and save the trouble and accusations?

Because your handicap is supposed to represent your current playing level, not your level from 2 or more years ago.  To keep a proper handicap, a player is supposed play every round honestly by the rules, and to return every card.  Failure to do so will result in a handicap which may not be representative of your actual ability   The game of golf is supposed to be a game of honor.  Unfortunately, there  are too many examples of pro athletes trying to get away with anything they can, and that just sets a bad example for golfers too.  The trouble is not typically as bad as many would have you believe either.  It only takes a couple of bad apples in a club of 150 players to cause a problem, especially if they happen to play in your flight.

Also, players are all too often blamed for sandbagging when they aren't.  Too many players can't accept the fact that exceptional scores happen, and the higher a player's handicap, the more wiggle room he has to post one or two of those great scores.  It only becomes a problem when it shows a trend.  A player who is improving from something like a 25 handicap can win steadily during the period of improvement because he is naturally going to be playing better than his handicap for a while.  Once he levels out, his success will taper off too.  If the club is properly organized, he will be playing in a different flight every other tournament or so as long as he continues to improve, so he will be competing against different and better players.

[beamjb7917]

I read about a bigger amateur tourney this past summer, the organizers would figure the probability of rounds compared to their handicap.  If the probability was high, they were disqualified