Brandel Chamblee Is the Biggest Tiger Hater

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Like it or not, Tiger's performance since switching to Foley has been mediocre at best.  Not saying he wouldn't have been even worse had he stuck with Haney or not had a coach at all, but his game is a shell of what it once was (9 holes at Augusta do not qualify as a comeback).  Chamblee has every right to comment about it, and since Tiger is the biggest name in golf, he would not be doing his job if he didn't talk about it.

Of course Chamblee has the right to comment on it, but he went beyond that today. Here's a commentator with no major wins and a pedestrian professional record, who is questioning the methods of a man with 71 PGA Tour wins and 14 majors. Not only does he question his methods, but he questions why the man isn't more transparent with the media as though Tiger owes him, or anyone else that. No player does. Let's remember that WE as fans and media are NOT the show, the players are. THEY are the ones WE watch. THEY don't necessarily need us as long as someone is willing to pony up the prize money.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

And I don't blame Tiger for being defensive over the years, speaking mostly of pre-scandal era. While I can understand and appreciate that they have a job to do, no player, including Woods, is obligated to give them something they don't want to, for whatever their reasons. During the early part of the scandal, Phil chose to stay away from making any comments, and for good reason. No win situation for him no matter what he might say. On the other hand, Phil was MORE than outspoken on his feelings about the process by which clubs are approved for play during the whole Ping Zing 2 wedge controversy. And he put himself in that position by his own choice, for his own agenda. So, he was all too happy to share his feelings openly with the press. When it came to his arthritic condition, he chose to keep that to himself until a point at which he felt comfortable speaking out about it. Again, his choice.  I could go on with other situations with other players who when it suits them, speak their minds, and then at other times, share very little. Tiger is CERTAINLY NOT the only player who does this, yet you would think he is. It's unfair and is a double standard which always seems to follow Tiger, but few, if any, others.

Heaven forbid anyone criticize Phil Mickelson cause he's such a great guy, fist-bumping and smiling his way around the golf course. And you have commentators even today talking up how Phil spent his day on Tuesday sigining autographs, playing a pracitice round, etc. Yet there are unconfirmed reports that behind the scenes he's not well liked by his peers as the claim is he's much different behind the scenes than he is in front of the public. I don't know one way or the other, but the point is with Tiger the rules always seem to be different for judging everything he says and does, and I think it's unfair.

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

Of course Chamblee has the right to comment on it, but he went beyond that today. Here's a commentator with no major wins and a pedestrian professional record, who is questioning the methods of a man with 71 PGA Tour wins and 14 majors. Not only does he question his methods, but he questions why the man isn't more transparent with the media as though Tiger owes him, or anyone else that. No player does. Let's remember that WE as fans and media are NOT the show, the players are. THEY are the ones WE watch. THEY don't necessarily need us as long as someone is willing to pony up the prize money.

Dude. Chill. We get it. Nobody can critique the gong show that is currently Tiger Woods because they don't have 71 wins and 14 majors. Now using that logic, unless you can prove otherwise, you haven't accomplished as much as Brandel Chamblee and Bubba Watson either, so who are you to judge them? Using that logic, the day Sean Foley first criticized Hank Haney's coaching methods he crossed an apparently uncrossable line too.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

Of course Chamblee has the right to comment on it, but he went beyond that today. Here's a commentator with no major wins and a pedestrian professional record, who is questioning the methods of a man with 71 PGA Tour wins and 14 majors. Not only does he question his methods, but he questions why the man isn't more transparent with the media as though Tiger owes him, or anyone else that. No player does. Let's remember that WE as fans and media are NOT the show, the players are. THEY are the ones WE watch. THEY don't necessarily need us as long as someone is willing to pony up the prize money.

I disagree, and here's why:  Tiger has gone from the best player in the world to, in your terms, a pedestrian player.  That is newsworthy stuff, and people like Chamblee, Frank Nobilo, Johnny Miller, Nick Faldo etal. have every obligation to offer their thoughts on why that is.  Someone's playing record does not have anything to do with their ability to comment on Tiger's situation.

And your point that the players don't necessarily need us is, well, just wrong.  Ask Tiger how many millions of dollars he has forfeited in the past 2 years.  Sure, he doesn't need the money, but that's a lot of cash that he (and IMG and Nike) have lost due to his "activities". Every tour player depends on people buying tournament admissions, playing in pro-ams, buying golf clubs, balls and apparel, and watching telecasts, for them to enjoy their lifestyle.

I found an interesting article from Dan Jenkins, long time golf writer, from back in February 2010 that goes quite a ways in explaining his thoughts on Tiger, and perhaps of many other journalists.  Jenkins has covered them all, from Hogan to the present, so I think his opinion has some validity:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2010-02/golf-tiger-jenkins-0218

[Zeph]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Like it or not, Tiger's performance since switching to Foley has been mediocre at best.  Not saying he wouldn't have been even worse had he stuck with Haney or not had a coach at all, but his game is a shell of what it once was (9 holes at Augusta do not qualify as a comeback).  Chamblee has every right to comment about it, and since Tiger is the biggest name in golf, he would not be doing his job if he didn't talk about it.

Brandel of all people should know that it takes time to go through a swing change. Do people forget the last time Tiger went through a major swing change? He has been working with Foley 7-8 months now, last time it took him two years to get back to winning form. Now he's got all the media on his back with the infidelity story, he's got two kids and no wife, he's got injury problems, he's playing less tournaments than before. I don't understand how people can expect him to get his swing back to the level of consistency needed to win on the PGA Tour under the circumstances.

Also, Tiger's game and swing has improved steadily from last year. His performance on the back nine at The Masters was the best we've seen in a long time. We can't expect to see that kind of performance through 72 holes, but he was in a position to threaten the leaders, which means he didn't play all that bad the first 63 holes. He almost won last year at the Chevron Tournament. If his game hasn't improved more at the end of the year you can maybe start questioning what he's doing, but it's too soon now.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I found an interesting article from Dan Jenkins, long time golf writer, from back in February 2010 that goes quite a ways in explaining his thoughts on Tiger, and perhaps of many other journalists.  Jenkins has covered them all, from Hogan to the present, so I think his opinion has some validity:

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2010-02/golf-tiger-jenkins-0218

To be honest, all that article does for me is prove that Brandel Chamblee is not the biggest Tiger Hater. That "honour" would go to Dan Jenkins. He sounds like a jealous ex (or a convicted stalker?) in that extremely vindictive piece.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Dude. Chill. We get it. Nobody can critique the gong show that is currently Tiger Woods because they don't have 71 wins and 14 majors. Now using that logic, unless you can prove otherwise, you haven't accomplished as much as Brandel Chamblee and Bubba Watson either, so who are you to judge them? Using that logic, the day Sean Foley first criticized Hank Haney's coaching methods he crossed an apparently uncrossable line too.

Once again my point is misrepresented. What I'm telling you is that while Chamblee, and anyone else is free to criticize Tiger's methods, it is only fair to evaluate his results along with those criticisms. He's been successful after each swing change and thru multiple injuries. But when someone chimes in like Bubba did, who hasn't been thru those same things as Tiger, he's speaking out of ignorance. It would be akin to my saying I understand what these guys go thru on a week to week basis preparing to play and win on tour. I don't. But neither does Bubba, or Chamblee know exactly what Tiger is going thru mentally or physically. Bubba has no clue how much the injuries may or may not be affecting Tiger's ability to complete a swing. Do you know what he's feeling in his left knee during his swing? If so, I'd love to get your input on it. But I'm going to guess you don't.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

Once again my point is misrepresented. What I'm telling you is that while Chamblee, and anyone else is free to criticize Tiger's methods, it is only fair to evaluate his results along with those criticisms. He's been successful after each swing change and thru multiple injuries. But when someone chimes in like Bubba did, who hasn't been thru those same things as Tiger, he's speaking out of ignorance. It would be akin to my saying I understand what these guys go thru on a week to week basis preparing to play and win on tour. I don't. But neither does Bubba, or Chamblee know exactly what Tiger is going thru mentally or physically. Bubba has no clue how much the injuries may or may not be affecting Tiger's ability to complete a swing. Do you know what he's feeling in his left knee during his swing? If so, I'd love to get your input on it. But I'm going to guess you don't.

You know what would be refreshing?  Tiger Woods sitting down with an objective interviewer , like Charley Rose, and actually being honest about the difficulties he has had through all his travails.  What about his injuries?  How much have they affected his game over the past years?  What about his swing changes?  Does he truly feel that he is making progress? Why doesn't he open up with the media?  And I'm not talking about his usual canned answers ("it's a process", "I see progress", etc.) , I'm talking about what he really feels.

Maybe if he did that (I doubt his handlers would ever permit it) some of the naysayers and doubters would have a different opinion of him.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

To be honest, all that article does for me is prove that Brandel Chamblee is not the biggest Tiger Hater. That "honour" would go to Dan Jenkins. He sounds like a jealous ex (or a convicted stalker?) in that extremely vindictive piece.

What a shock! An old-schooler from the Hogan era despises everything Tiger has come to represent. Now let me preface my next comments with this. I'm a HUGE fan of Ben Hogan. But Ben Hogan was not known to be nice to the press, nor friendly with the fans or his playing companions. He was known to cuss like a sailor in the locker room and privately, but seemed very proper before the cameras. (be they shutter or tv.) He was known to be INTENSELY private and many whom HE claimed to be friends, would later claim they never knew the man beyond handshakes before and after their competitive rounds or small talk on the range.  Hogan once turned down a request from Nick Faldo for a private lesson because he didn't play their equipment. It wasn't until his accident and his survival of that accident that he became a hero to the masses. His selfless act of throwing himself in front of his wife as they saw the greyhound bus enter their lane head on, endeared him to thousands if not millions around the world of golf.  He gave lessons here and there early on in his career as a means of survival to pursue his dream on tour, but hated every minute of it by all accounts because he felt his students would never commit to practice the way he did.

I can go further. Where was Dan Jenkins when guys like Nick Faldo or Greg Norman or Fred Couples had their affairs and were married, and remarried. You mean none of those guys were selling a brand or an image? How about guys like John Daly and his despicable antics on and off the golf course? Where is Mr. Jenkins on THAT behavior? Or the behavior of someone like Rory Sabbatini who berates a teenage volunteer at a PGA Tour event? Has he come out against Rory for that despicable act? Or does Mr. Jenkins reserve his comments like those in the article only for Tiger Woods?

To me Mr. Jenkins speaks like a jilted lover whose found out she wasn't the chosen one. Sounds to me like Mr. Jenkins had been waiting for this moment so he could unload on Tiger and it's a pity.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

You know what would be refreshing?  Tiger Woods sitting down with an objective interviewer , like Charley Rose, and actually being honest about the difficulties he has had through all his travails.  What about his injuries?  How much have they affected his game over the past years?  What about his swing changes?  Does he truly feel that he is making progress? Why doesn't he open up with the media?  And I'm not talking about his usual canned answers ("it's a process", "I see progress", etc.) , I'm talking about what he really feels.

Maybe if he did that (I doubt his handlers would ever permit it) some of the naysayers and doubters would have a different opinion of him.

Why? Why do you need to know the answers to those questions?

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

Once again my point is misrepresented. What I'm telling you is that while Chamblee, and anyone else is free to criticize Tiger's methods, it is only fair to evaluate his results along with those criticisms. He's been successful after each swing change and thru multiple injuries. But when someone chimes in like Bubba did, who hasn't been thru those same things as Tiger, he's speaking out of ignorance. It would be akin to my saying I understand what these guys go thru on a week to week basis preparing to play and win on tour. I don't. But neither does Bubba, or Chamblee know exactly what Tiger is going thru mentally or physically. Bubba has no clue how much the injuries may or may not be affecting Tiger's ability to complete a swing. Do you know what he's feeling in his left knee during his swing? If so, I'd love to get your input on it. But I'm going to guess you don't.

Bubba (or Sean) also has no clue what it is like have their own brand of gatorade, or what it feels like to sleep around on your wife with multiple porn stars only to have it reported by the same media that helped you become the mega brand, or to own a yacht named Privacy. With that rationale, no one can comment.

I have no problem with Brandel. He had the balls to post on this forum and has been consistent on his position. I respect him for that.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Bubba (or Sean) also has no clue what it is like have their own brand of gatorade, or what it feels like to sleep around on your wife with multiple porn stars only to have it reported by the same media that helped you become the mega brand, or to own a yacht named Privacy. With that rationale, no one can comment.

I have no problem with Brandel. He had the balls to post on this forum and has been consistent on his position. I respect him for that.

The media made Tiger a megastar? I was mistaken. I thought it was his winning 6 straight USGA Jr. and Am (combined) Championships and then turned pro, won in his first season on tour, earning his tour card, then went on to average winning 1 major a year for 14 years straight. I thought it was his winning 5,6, 7, and sometimes 9 times in a sesaon amassing 71 PGA Tour wins in 14 years. I thought it was his earning more money, and bringing more money to the tour in a decade than anyone before him. I thought it was him making the game cool and helping grow the game globally. (incidentally this is something EVEN Brandel Chamblee credits him with.)

Yes, Chamblee deserves credit for speaking his views openly. I give him due credit for that. But I question what his true motives here really are. I get it. We all get it. Tiger's a dirtbag of a person., So what?! He's not the first on tour to be so and won't be the last. Get over it!

None of this matters as the ONLY thing that matters is his playing record. 14 majors and 71 PGA Tour wins. No one on tour right now is or will come close to those #'s over the next decade.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

The media made Tiger a megastar? I was mistaken. I thought it was his winning 6 straight USGA Jr. and Am (combined) Championships and then turned pro, won in his first season on tour, earning his tour card, then went on to average winning 1 major a year for 14 years straight. I thought it was his winning 5,6, 7, and sometimes 9 times in a sesaon amassing 71 PGA Tour wins in 14 years. I thought it was his earning more money, and bringing more money to the tour in a decade than anyone before him. I thought it was him making the game cool and helping grow the game globally. (incidentally this is something EVEN Brandel Chamblee credits him with.)

Yes, Chamblee deserves credit for speaking his views openly. I give him due credit for that. But I question what his true motives here really are. I get it. We all get it. Tiger's a dirtbag of a person., So what?! He's not the first on tour to be so and won't be the last. Get over it!

None of this matters as the ONLY thing that matters is his playing record. 14 majors and 71 PGA Tour wins. No one on tour right now is or will come close to those #'s over the next decade.

You cannot deny that the global marketing that went along with Tiger was something that the world has not seen since Michael Jordan. The branding, the family image, the direction and control from his father (Remember "How to Raise a Tiger?, "Tiger's Triple", etc) was very calculated and not built just on his amazing record. If you can't admit that the media had a part in establishing the global brand known as Tiger, then I don't know what to tell you. What I can tell you is that the very media that helped catapult him to mega stardom is now being villianized for criticizing him. Like I have said before, "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword".

Brandel's motives are all about the ratings, but I have to say he has been consistent.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

None of this matters as the ONLY thing that matters is his playing record. 14 majors and 71 PGA Tour wins. No one on tour right now is or will come close to those #'s over the next decade.

What have other players got to do with this? You just posted (quite a few times) about Tiger's "71 PGA Tour wins and 14 Majors". That's all that matters in this discussion. Post it a million times over and it doesn't change the fact that the path he's on RIGHT NOW seems a bit off - by his own standards. Tiger Woods is a professional athlete who is not playing to his previous level of greatness. How much higher that level is/was than his peers - thanks for the stats btw - just illustrates how far down he's fallen. He's still ranked higher than all but 7 other golfers on the planet, so nobody's saying he's terrible by any standard, but if you can look at it objectively, do you honestly believe he's on the right path to recapturing his previous magic? With Foley?

Sure Brandel Chamblee seems to be obssessed with Tiger's descent, but come on man, could you possibly be any more ossessed with defending Tiger? Forget about rebuilds, injuries, personal problems. Read the review of Foley's instructional video (on this site) and tell me he wouldn't be better off switching it up a bit further and dumping that poser.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

You cannot deny that the global marketing that went along with Tiger was something that the world has not seen since Michael Jordan. The branding, the family image, the direction and control from his father (Remember "How to Raise a Tiger?, "Tiger's Triple", etc) was very calculated and not built just on his amazing record. If you can't admit that the media had a part in establishing the global brand known as Tiger, then I don't know what to tell you. What I can tell you is that the very media that helped catapult him to mega stardom is now being villianized for criticizing him. Like I have said before, "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword".

Brandel's motives are all about the ratings, but I have to say he has been consistent.

And once again, the media did NOT make Tiger. Tiger made Tiger. His team made Tiger. The media BOUGHT IT, hook, line, and sinker and ran with it. THEY didn't do their due diligence. That's THEIR fault. Tiger was and is who he was and is. The fact he fooled them is what aggravates them and all those who believed in all of the hype of his personal life. It's why I always say that pro athletes are NOT EVER role models. They are MADE so by parents who want someone to blame for how THEIR children turn out. example: My kid is cussing and throwing clubs on the golf course. Must be Tiger's fault cause he does it, they see it, and mimick it! WRONG!!! It's YOUR fault parents for NOT teaching your children the proper way to conduct themselves and holding them accountable for their actions.

Should Tiger and others in his position try to set a better example? Yes. But ultimately it is up to us as parents to lead and guide our children not Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson ,or any other athlete.

As for the media, they don't make stars in this game. A player either has the talent to compete and win, or they don't. And if they win like a Phil or Tiger, they are going to get the bulk of media attention. Conversely, the guy who finishes 108th on the money list, never wins, rarely tweaks the interest of the media. Why? He doesn't win. The media NEED the players. The players don't NEED the media. As Tiger has proven.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

What have other players got to do with this? You just posted (quite a few times) about Tiger's "71 PGA Tour wins and 14 Majors". That's all that matters in this discussion. Post it a million times over and it doesn't change the fact that the path he's on RIGHT NOW seems a bit off - by his own standards. Tiger Woods is a professional athlete who is not playing to his previous level of greatness. How much higher that level is/was than his peers - thanks for the stats btw - just illustrates how far down he's fallen. He's still ranked higher than all but 7 other golfers on the planet, so nobody's saying he's terrible by any standard, but if you can look at it objectively, do you honestly believe he's on the right path to recapturing his previous magic? With Foley?

Sure Brandel Chamblee seems to be obssessed with Tiger's descent, but come on man, could you possibly be any more ossessed with defending Tiger? Forget about rebuilds, injuries, personal problems. Read the review of Foley's instructional video (on this site) and tell me he wouldn't be better off switching it up a bit further and dumping that poser.

Well Tiger played pretty well at Augusta. I love how guys like to say "9 good holes at Augusta doesn't mean he's back." Ummm, he played 72 holes and on Sunday was in the mix to win. So I'm quite sure he had to play well for more than 9 holes. Either that or we're saying that the rest of the field stunk it up all week at Augusta. Is that what we're saying?  Didn't think so!

As to his stats, what else matters? How many women he slept with? I don't care! What he paid in his divorce settlement? I don't care. How badly his knee is hurt? I don't care. None of these things are any of my business. I don't need to know how much it's hurting, but I also can't tell you how much those injuries are affecting his ability to hit the ball well, so I can't speak to whether or not he's going in the right direction with Sean Foley. What I do know is that presumably healthy, his previous swing change took him 18 months to complete. He's been working with Foley since late last year and for most of that has either been injured, or away from the game.

So you tell me. How far along should he be right now? He's played well at times, at others not so much. None of us knows how much his injuries are affecting his play. I'm concerned that he may not be playing much longer, especially if he goes under the knife again. If so, that would indeed be a shame. I've enjoyed watching him play golf and watchingh him chase Jack Nicklaus' 18 majors. It would be a shame to see injury cut that effort short.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

Well Tiger played pretty well at Augusta. I love how guys like to say "9 good holes at Augusta doesn't mean he's back." Ummm, he played 72 holes and on Sunday was in the mix to win. So I'm quite sure he had to play well for more than 9 holes. Either that or we're saying that the rest of the field stunk it up all week at Augusta. Is that what we're saying?  Didn't think so!

As to his stats, what else matters? How many women he slept with? I don't care! What he paid in his divorce settlement? I don't care. How badly his knee is hurt? I don't care. None of these things are any of my business. I don't need to know how much it's hurting, but I also can't tell you how much those injuries are affecting his ability to hit the ball well, so I can't speak to whether or not he's going in the right direction with Sean Foley. What I do know is that presumably healthy, his previous swing change took him 18 months to complete. He's been working with Foley since late last year and for most of that has either been injured, or away from the game.

So you tell me. How far along should he be right now? He's played well at times, at others not so much. None of us knows how much his injuries are affecting his play. I'm concerned that he may not be playing much longer, especially if he goes under the knife again. If so, that would indeed be a shame. I've enjoyed watching him play golf and watchingh him chase Jack Nicklaus' 18 majors. It would be a shame to see injury cut that effort short.

Augusta is a batting practice fastball for Tiger, just like it was for Jack (and it could be argued like the British Open was for Jack and Tom Watson). They competed there regardless of how their games were because of their course knowledge and how well those events suit their games. They're built for Augusta National.

I hope Tiger comes back because golf is more interesting when he's around, but if Sean Foley is the guy to do it, I'll be shocked. Time will tell.

[henniebogan1966]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Augusta is a batting practice fastball for Tiger, just like it was for Jack (and it could be argued like the British Open was for Jack and Tom Watson). They competed there regardless of how their games were because of their course knowledge and how well those events suit their games. They're built for Augusta National.

I hope Tiger comes back because golf is more interesting when he's around, but if Sean Foley is the guy to do it, I'll be shocked. Time will tell.

Are you trying to say that for Tiger, Augusta is easy? I want to be clear that I understand exactly what you mean by your comment before I comment further.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by henniebogan1966

Are you trying to say that for Tiger, Augusta is easy? I want to be clear that I understand exactly what you mean by your comment before I comment further.

What I'm saying is that Tiger's C at Augusta is the equivalent of most qualifier's B+ game and his B game is as good or better than all but the top player's A+ game.

Augusta is to Tiger what Turnberry is to Tom Watson - comfort food. Tiger played fantastic at Augusta and he re-injured his knee. There's really not much more to say about Augusta (for me anyway) than that.