Changing/cleaning your ball during a hole?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

I haven't read the rules of golf in awhile, but IIRC the only time you can replace your ball is when damaged (as previously noted along with the lost and hazard scenarios), and can only be cleaned  before reaching the green, without penalty, when it is plugged in the fairway (Embedded ball rule).

Care to 'enlighten' us all on what I got wrong...

I think what Ignorant was referring to is you can also replace your ball between holes, unless there is a one-ball rule in effect as has been discussed in this thread. You may have meant that, but it's not what you wrote. And, another situation where you can clean your ball is any time it's lifted (such as when taking a drop from a hazard), other than some exceptions (such as when identifying it, or determining whether it is unfit for play).

Perhaps the reason Ignorant was a bit "snipy" was you came in and posted incorrect information based on your memory instead of checking the rules first, and despite the correct information alread having been discussed at length in the posts previous to yours. I don't see any problem with Ignorant asking you to do your research, as opposed to he or someone else doing it for you.

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

Quote:

Originally Posted by trickymicky69

I play with two of the same ball in the winter (i.e two pro v1's, from the same box) as do my playing partners

I swap them around sometimes every other shot because they get covered in so much mud, its quicker to do it this way.

I clean the other ball as I am walking so I dont hold up the play.

This would still be illegal though? Or not?

Illegal.  If it were legal, every pro would clean their ball on every shot.  Who wouldn't want a nice, clean, perfect ball on every shot?

It sounds like the situation is that winter rules are in place and cleaning is allowed. I think trickymicky's question was whether it's legal to switch the current ball mid-hole with a pre-cleaned one in order to save time...  which is still illegal, just not quite the same situation as you were addressing.

[NEOHMark]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

I think what Ignorant was referring to is you can also replace your ball between holes, unless there is a one-ball rule in effect as has been discussed in this thread. You may have meant that, but it's not what you wrote. And, another situation where you can clean your ball is any time it's lifted (such as when taking a drop from a hazard), other than some exceptions (such as when identifying it, or determining whether it is unfit for play).

Perhaps the reason Ignorant was a bit "snipy" was you came in and posted incorrect information based on your memory instead of checking the rules first, and despite the correct information alread having been discussed at length in the posts previous to yours. I don't see any problem with Ignorant asking you to do your research, as opposed to he or someone else doing it for you.

It sounds like the situation is that winter rules are in place and cleaning is allowed. I think trickymicky's question was whether it's legal to switch the current ball mid-hole with a pre-cleaned one in order to save time...  which is still illegal, just not quite the same situation as you were addressing.

Perhaps.  But with all due respect, I wasn't addressing trickymicky on my first post.  I was addressing the OP - the context of which was specifically whether or not you could replace and/or clean a ball on any given hole simply for convenience?  The answer is unequivocally - no, unless the ball is damaged or embedded.  I suppose a valid point would be the OP asked about 'winter rules'.  But the preferred lie rule is really left up to the course mgt and/or competition committee (like a league or tourney director).  By rule, it's really not at the discretion of the player to decide 'today I'm playing by winter rules':

Preferred Lies (Winter Rules)

"Preferred Lies" (winter rules) is a local rule that may be adopted by the committee in charge of the competition or the committee in charge of the course, in the event of adverse conditions that are so general throughout a course that improving the lie of the ball in a specified way would promote fair play or help protect the course. (See Section 7 and "The Rules of Golf," Appendix I.)

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

Perhaps.  But with all due respect, I wasn't addressing trickymicky on my first post.  I was addressing the OP - the context of which was specifically whether or not you could replace and/or clean a ball on any given hole simply for convenience?  The answer is unequivocally - no, unless the ball is damaged or embedded.

Understood, but again, that's not what you said in that post (you didn't include the "on any given hole" part), and you further muddied (pun intended ) the waters when you erroneously said the ball could only be cleaned when plugged. Therefore I stand by my statement that Ignorant was right to point out your errors. That's all.

The second part of my post was just to point out that it was unclear whether trickmicky's post was asking "Can I clean a ball whenever I want?" vs "Can I switch balls during play of a hole if cleaning is allowed?"  While the answer to both questions is "no", it just seemed like you were only answering the first, so I wanted to clarify that the second (which I believe was his true question) is also illegal.

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

The preferred lie rule is really left up to the course mgt and/or competition committee (like a league or tourney director).  By rule, it's really not at the discretion of the player to decide 'today I'm playing by winter rules':

Yes, and although I don't think anyone was under that impression there's still no harm in reinforcing that fact.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

Perhaps.  But with all due respect, I wasn't addressing trickymicky on my first post.  I was addressing the OP - the context of which was specifically whether or not you could replace and/or clean a ball on any given hole simply for convenience?  The answer is unequivocally - no, unless the ball is damaged or embedded.  I suppose a valid point would be the OP asked about 'winter rules'.  But the preferred lie rule is really left up to the course mgt and/or competition committee (like a league or tourney director).  By rule, it's really not at the discretion of the player to decide 'today I'm playing by winter rules':

Actually "preferred lies" is solely up to a competition committee.  The course can say they are under winter rules, but it's really meaningless unless the round is for a competition.  I'm not playing winter rules if I'm playing a handicap round.  All that does is needlessly lower my handicap.  I'm more likely to play the ball down and then not return the score if the conditions cause it to be unusually high.  I don't want to sandbag unfairly when the conditions are harsh, but I don't want to penalize myself either.  I feel that one has to use some judgment in determining whether or not the conditions warrant returning a round for handicap.  I've simply never been a fan of winter rules.

If a group is just playing a casual round they must serve as their own committee and decide among themselves whether they will play the ball down or not.

Here in Colorado we are still 4 days from being able to return scores anyway, so it's all moot.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by NEOHMark

Perhaps.  But with all due respect, I wasn't addressing trickymicky on my first post.  I was addressing the OP - the context of which was specifically whether or not you could replace and/or clean a ball on any given hole simply for convenience?  The answer is unequivocally - no, unless the ball is damaged or embedded.  I suppose a valid point would be the OP asked about 'winter rules'.  But the preferred lie rule is really left up to the course mgt and/or competition committee (like a league or tourney director).  By rule, it's really not at the discretion of the player to decide 'today I'm playing by winter rules':

Preferred Lies (Winter Rules)

"Preferred Lies" (winter rules) is a local rule that may be adopted by the committee in charge of the competition or the committee in charge of the course, in the event of adverse conditions that are so general throughout a course that improving the lie of the ball in a specified way would promote fair play or help protect the course. (See Section 7 and "The Rules of Golf," Appendix I.)

Sorry, I did not mean to be mean but I dislike people coming forward first saying 'I do not really want to check this' and then they give false information.

As far as cleaning the ball is concerned there is a specific Rule for that:

Rule 21

.....

A ball on the putting green may be cleaned when lifted under Rule
16-1b. Elsewhere, a ball may be cleaned when lifted , except when it
has been lifted :
a. To determine if it is unfit for play (Rule 5-3);
b. For identification (Rule 12-2), in which case it may be cleaned only
to the extent necessary for identification; or
c. Because it is assisting or interfering with play (Rule 22).

So the ball may be cleaned always when taking a relief, applying unplayable Rule, etc. Not only when the ball is embedded.

Substituting a ball s also permitted in more cases than when the ball is broken. Eg. applying unplayable Rule, ball lost in water hazard, etc.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Sorry, I did not mean to be mean but I dislike people coming forward first saying 'I do not really want to check this' and then they give false information.

As far as cleaning the ball is concerned there is a specific Rule for that:

Rule 21

.....

A ball on the putting green may be cleaned when lifted under Rule

16-1b. Elsewhere, a ball may be cleaned when lifted, except when it

has been lifted:

a. To determine if it is unfit for play (Rule 5-3);

b. For identification (Rule 12-2), in which case it may be cleaned only

to the extent necessary for identification; or

c. Because it is assisting or interfering with play (Rule 22).

So the ball may be cleaned always when taking a relief, applying unplayable Rule, etc. Not only when the ball is embedded.

Substituting a ball s also permitted in more cases than when the ball is broken. Eg. applying unplayable Rule, ball lost in water hazard, etc.

And also if it isn't lost in the hazard. Even if you recover the ball you can still substitute another ball for it.

[johnthejoiner]

Something to be aware of if you are changing your ball for certain holes. A softer ball will putt 10% less then a hard  ball, a 20 foot stroke made with one will go 18 feet vs 20 foot with the other if hit with the same stroke

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Something to be aware of if you are changing your ball for certain holes. A softer ball will putt 10% less then a hard  ball, a 20 foot stroke made with one will go 18 feet vs 20 foot with the other if hit with the same stroke

Strange observation indeed. I have never experienced that. Have you made a real blind test with someone else putting the ball in front of your putter? What about putters with a soft insert, does that theory apply to those as well? How about putters with a grooved face? How big role has the prevailing temperature?

[bigbear43]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

You can only change your ball during the play of a hole if it has been damaged.  You may also substitute a ball if the original ball is lost, or if you are proceeding under a rule which allows you to drop a ball under a penalty (water hazard or ball unplayable).  In the Rules of Golf, any rule which says that the ball must be dropped or placed means that you must continue play with the original ball.  If the rule states that a ball must be dropped or placed, then you are allowed to substitute another ball.

If you are in a situation where substitution is allowed, there is no rule which says that the new ball must be the same as the ball it's replacing.  That requirement can be instituted as a condition of a competition, but it is generally only seen in very high level tournaments.  At the club level it is very rare.  There is nothing in the Rules of Golf which prohibit changing types or brands when substitution is allowed.

Unless it's during a stipulated round then the ball must the same type of ball

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by bigbear43

Unless it's during a stipulated round then the ball must the same type of ball

No, not at all.

Ar fourputt explained, there is no Rule that prohibits one to change type, brand or model when substituting a ball, even during a stipulated round. Only in high level competitions a One Ball Rule is/may be in force but that is separately described in the Conditions of the Competition.

So feel free to change your ball whenever you are allowed to substitute it, should you find it necessary.

[bigbear43]

Sorry looking furthure into the rules there is no specific rule that says one can not change balls for specific shoots. However on a note to 5-1 in  Appendix I part C rule 1c i of the "rules" states "one ball codition; during a stipulated round the balls a player plays must be of the same brand and model as detailed by a single entry on the current list of confirming golf balls" This rule is up to the commitee to enforce. So basically it's not a rule but is in the rules and is up to who ever is running a stipulated round to enforce it. Not specifcally high level competions, where it enforced, but your local club has the option if they wish.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by bigbear43

Sorry looking furthure into the rules there is no specific rule that says one can not change balls for specific shoots. However on a note to 5-1 in  Appendix I part C rule 1c i of the "rules" states "one ball codition; during a stipulated round the balls a player plays must be of the same brand and model as detailed by a single entry on the current list of confirming golf balls" This rule is up to the commitee to enforce. So basically it's not a rule but is in the rules and is up to who ever is running a stipulated round to enforce it. Not specifcally high level competions, where it enforced, but your local club has the option if they wish.

It isn't just "enforced".  It is only a rule if the competition committee has instituted it as a condition of the competition.  The committee must take action to activate it and to announce that it is in effect.  If they do not do so, then it is not a requirement and they can not "enforce" what they have not activated.  It is never just an automatic "rule" which can  be enforced at will.  I've played in competitions for more than 20 years, and the last 2 years I've been an on course rules official for the Colorado Golf Association, and I have yet to be involved in a tournament where this was a requirement.  It is very rare at any but the top levels of play.

[bigbear43]

Yes it needs to be activated and enforced and it is probably only seen in professional and, or high end amature competition

[ohiolefty]

Thought it was in for a lively discussion of lift, clean and place.

Little did I know this thread would turn the colour (ha) of my dog's excrement.

[ohiolefty]

And I got a nice laugh out of someone passing off not knowing how to spell a contraction as a difference in standard conventions between countries. Isn't the English language wonderful?

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by ohiolefty

Isn't the English language wonderful?

It is, indeed! And to give one nice example how to use it for amusement:

Ever heard about the butcher's boy who sat on a bacon slicer? He got a little behind in his deliveries.

[Gator Hazard]

Trying to understand based on Florida hurricane season conditions.  I have played many plugged balls by cleaning and replacing.  I know that rule is clear if you are in the fairway but often times the ground is so soft here because of all of the rain that if you hit it in the rough, it is still plugged.  Do the rules then state that if my ball is plugged in the rough I have to play it as it lies if I am to play by the strict rules of golf?

[DaveP043]

That's exactly what the rules say.  There is commonly a local rule that says that the embedded ball rule is in effect "through the green", which means that you get to lift it, clean it, and drop it anywhere except in a hazard or bunker.  This could be on the back of the scorecard, or posted someplace else if its not in effect all the time.