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david_wedzik

Is there a 5th Power Accumulator?

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Is this the same as #2?

No. From a weak left-hand grip, #2 and #5 are basically 90 degrees opposed to one another. With a strong left-hand grip, the closest these will get in practice is about 45 degrees...

Also note that you can completely THROW #5 and yet reload #2. So they're "related" but they're definitely not the same or tied together in any real sense.

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Would you guys say that #5 (should it become formally recognized, and good luck with that ) is somewhat of the same order of magnitude as #3? As in -- yes it's there, yes it may well add a little something something but it's not primary to power generation in the way that #1, #2 and #4 variously are to most golfers.

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What, you're saying Homer Kelley didn't find them all?
You guys keep living up your name. How about calling it Stack & Evolve.

I see your point and it makes perfect sense. There is no doubt to me that the right wrist bend creates a lot of potential power. We store it up by not casting/flipping, but it does start to straighten on the downswing. There is no need in storing up the power if you never release it, even if it is a result of gravity rather than a conscious move. Swinging with a straight right wrist would not get you very far, it also serve a purpose to make sure you hit down on the ball with a forward leaning shaft.

You have illustrated on a lot of pictures how the right wrist is flat at some point during P8. How does that work with some other tips (IIRC, don't shoot me if I'm wrong) on not losing the right arm flying wedge through P8, keeping the right hand pressure points going all the way after impact? You obviously do not want to flip, but is there a counterpoint where you hold the flying wedge to an extent that you lose speed, which would not be adviced? Sort of locking the right wrist in a bent position. The right wrist bend is flattened when the clubhead has gained enough speed to catch up, in my head, trying to hold the flying wedge too much can perhaps lead to people slowing down to keep control of it. You will get a forward leaning shaft at impact, but perhaps not with as high speed.

Once the right wrist starts to flatten, you can't hold it back, at least not until after impact and the divot, where the hands might catch up again and re-create the flying wedge.

I have felt that the right wrist made more of a snap when doing some swings trying to jump more. Legs push off the ground and slings the club on the ball, but keeping the path in-line.

Finally, is this mainly a theoretical topic to understand the golf swing better, or is PA#5 something you can work on to improve in one or the other way? There is of course a lot of talk about the flying wedges, but does the interepretation of the right wrist as a power accumulator change our view on how it ideally should move through the swing?

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Awesome, awesome read David. May I ask, why are all the power accumulators in the hands and arms? Why nothing as far as how far and long the hips slide or the rate of rotation or how much you 'stand up' with the left leg? I sure this is basic stuff, but I'm interested.

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Excellent post David (and team Golf Evolution!).

I had a separate discussion on this with Erik as I had great difficulty with the flying wedge as I was overdoing it and losing a ton of clubhead speed. on tha

I am in full agreement with your observations and believe it should be considered as part of the Power Package. In fact, I've realised this is exactly how I generate power in my own swing! I have always been a hitter (right arm dominant), as opposed to a swinger (left arm dominant), conciously trying to hit the ball as hard as I can by releasing my right wrist into the back of the ball as late as possible in the downswing.

I agree that this is not the ideal way to swing the golf club as it involves a timing element, but ironically I've gained both distance and accuracy with this move. I think that comes from the fact I was trying to create lag by holding off release for too long, thereby losing clubhead speed and hitting major pushes and push-fades. I have to work hard on driving my hips forward to avoid flipping and the dreaded pull-hook, but done correctly I hit a solid straight ball with a hint of fade.

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I swear, you guys should get together and write something like an addendum to Andy and Mike's book. Excellent post. Between this, the "Hitting Up or Down with the Driver in an Inline Pattern" thread, the Slide Your Hips thread, and countless others, it seems like there's almost enough for at least a chapter or two.

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Originally Posted by Stretch

Would you guys say that #5 (should it become formally recognized, and good luck with that ) is somewhat of the same order of magnitude as #3? As in -- yes it's there, yes it may well add a little something something but it's not primary to power generation in the way that #1, #2 and #4 variously are to most golfers.


Nope. Not really.

If you think about it, from a fully uncocked wrist #3 adds next to no power. It's enough to send the ball forward, what, two inches? And #2 adds no power in the direction of the target. Go ahead - cock your wrist and then uncock it. If you hit the ball at all, it's going to go off the bottom of the hosel and between your legs.

#2 and #3 work only in concert with each other.

I can generate a lot more power hinging my right wrist back than I can rolling my left forearm and likely as much as #2 only.

Originally Posted by Zeph

What, you're saying Homer Kelley didn't find them all?

You guys keep living up your name. How about calling it Stack & Evolve.

Thanks. We're always thinking. Or trying to think. And I wish Homer was around today. Perhaps he'd agree. Maybe (perhaps even likely) he'd disagree, but it'd be really interesting to know why.

Originally Posted by Zeph

You have illustrated on a lot of pictures how the right wrist is flat at some point during P8. How does that work with some other tips (IIRC, don't shoot me if I'm wrong) on not losing the right arm flying wedge through P8, keeping the right hand pressure points going all the way after impact? You obviously do not want to flip, but is there a counterpoint where you hold the flying wedge to an extent that you lose speed, which would not be adviced?

Short answer: you don't fully release the right wrist bend coming into impact, but if you do so afterwards it's not going to matter so much, particularly where power matters a bit more than precision: the driver versus the irons, for example.

The right wrist in virtually ever player we looked at is in the process of releasing from fully bent around P4-P6 to less bent at P7 . Some players STOP releasing shortly after impact. Some, like Phil and Vijay, continue to let it fly and even get into a "thrown" position.

But they're not there prior to impact.

So yes, if you did nothing but hold the flying wedge, you're giving up a little power. But you almost never literally "hold the flying wedge" - you might just stop throwing it out after impact. And with irons, the ground helps you do this.


Originally Posted by Zeph

Once the right wrist starts to flatten, you can't hold it back, at least not until after impact and the divot, where the hands might catch up again and re-create the flying wedge.

I don't agree. It's tough, but it's not impossible. And, again, the ground helps... and pure power matters less, which is why we see people go to a "thrown" position with the driver more than with a wedge.

Originally Posted by Zeph

Finally, is this mainly a theoretical topic to understand the golf swing better, or is PA#5 something you can work on to improve in one or the other way? There is of course a lot of talk about the flying wedges, but does the interepretation of the right wrist as a power accumulator change our view on how it ideally should move through the swing?


We've not entirely figured that out yet. Our working theory is that very rarely someone might want to feel that they hold the wrist bend longer on the downswing or something like that, but at the most you'd work on it just about as often as you work on the other accumulators. Oftentimes, they're tied in to something else - a different feeling, sensation, etc.

Originally Posted by The Gill

May I ask, why are all the power accumulators in the hands and arms? Why nothing as far as how far and long the hips slide or the rate of rotation or how much you 'stand up' with the left leg? I sure this is basic stuff, but I'm interested.

Because your hips or legs (etc.) are not part of the Power Package. You'll have to ask Homer Kelley, and he died in 1983... We did include a definition of "Power Package" at the end of the post.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I have always been a hitter (right arm dominant), as opposed to a swinger (left arm dominant), conciously trying to hit the ball as hard as I can by releasing my right wrist into the back of the ball as late as possible in the downswing.

As you know, the holding of the right elbow angle and then the active, hard straightening of it is a big part of what you feel as well. And regardless of feel, the truth is you're still pulling with the left arm and pushing with the right arm, regardless of what you feel, so most likely every swing has a little bit of every accumulator in active use. Feels vary of course.

Good discussion so far guys. That's one of the reasons we wanted to publish. We've got more information, but wanted to get this out there early to see if it was worth organizing and publishing it... :-)

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Originally Posted by Stretch

Would you guys say that #5 (should it become formally recognized, and good luck with that ) is somewhat of the same order of magnitude as #3? As in -- yes it's there, yes it may well add a little something something but it's not primary to power generation in the way that #1, #2 and #4 variously are to most golfers.


Erik pretty much answered this already...but I will re-emphasize...I believe that BY ITSELF with no help 5 is more "powerful", in the golf motion, than 2 or 3.



Originally Posted by Zeph

What, you're saying Homer Kelley didn't find them all?

You guys keep living up your name. How about calling it Stack & Evolve.

I see your point and it makes perfect sense. There is no doubt to me that the right wrist bend creates a lot of potential power. We store it up by not casting/flipping, but it does start to straighten on the downswing. There is no need in storing up the power if you never release it, even if it is a result of gravity rather than a conscious move. Swinging with a straight right wrist would not get you very far, it also serve a purpose to make sure you hit down on the ball with a forward leaning shaft.

You have illustrated on a lot of pictures how the right wrist is flat at some point during P8. How does that work with some other tips (IIRC, don't shoot me if I'm wrong) on not losing the right arm flying wedge through P8, keeping the right hand pressure points going all the way after impact? You obviously do not want to flip, but is there a counterpoint where you hold the flying wedge to an extent that you lose speed, which would not be adviced? Sort of locking the right wrist in a bent position. The right wrist bend is flattened when the clubhead has gained enough speed to catch up, in my head, trying to hold the flying wedge too much can perhaps lead to people slowing down to keep control of it. You will get a forward leaning shaft at impact, but perhaps not with as high speed.

Once the right wrist starts to flatten, you can't hold it back, at least not until after impact and the divot, where the hands might catch up again and re-create the flying wedge.

I have felt that the right wrist made more of a snap when doing some swings trying to jump more. Legs push off the ground and slings the club on the ball, but keeping the path in-line.

Finally, is this mainly a theoretical topic to understand the golf swing better, or is PA#5 something you can work on to improve in one or the other way? There is of course a lot of talk about the flying wedges, but does the interepretation of the right wrist as a power accumulator change our view on how it ideally should move through the swing?


Erik covered these questions as well and was right on I must say.  The question re: losing the wedge into P8 deserves another sentence at least though...the research shows that there is a clear MAXIMIZING of the bend (loading) and then a delivery/release. What is important is to know that for the great majority of people the sensation will be to maximize and hold.  But whatever the sensation and feel may be to create the flying wedge the evidence speaks for itself.  There is a change in the right wrist bend going on from P4 - P8.  And there is a range of conditions of that wrist in place at P8.  Again..IMPORTANT...we are not saying to consciously throw out the bend from the top...in fact I might say almost the opposite ;-)

Another quick point. It is interesting to see how some maximize at P4 and others during the downstroke (and to answer your question about teaching it...this may be one place we look...how to, say, maximize from P4 to P5 to create the most speed??). More to come for sure!

Dave

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Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I don't agree. It's tough, but it's not impossible. And, again, the ground helps... and pure power matters less, which is why we see people go to a "thrown" position with the driver more than with a wedge.



I might have misunderstood you, or you me, but here goes. What I was trying to ask is if you can regain the right wrist bend angle during the downswing before impact. Can the angle go from 130 to 140 and to 130 again before impact, assuming it's a full speed swing? Through P8, the club is pulling up because of centripital force. After impact, the hands start rotating, putting them in a position where the pulling of the club re-establish the bend and cock. I would think it's sort of like PP3, if you lose it, you won't regain it before impact. The club gains too much speed for the hands to catch up. When you lose the wedge and all the bending stuff, it's a result of the hands not moving fast enough, moving too fast too early, or actively throwing it away with the wrists.

#2 and this new #5 is of course not the same, but they are interrelated. It's interesting to watch players with different swings hit it far. Bubba Watson and Alvaro Quiros got the snap release with lots of lag, then you got JB Holmes and Robert Garrigus with the sweeping release, all of them hitting it a mile. It is of course difficult to measure these angles with stationary cameras, often with poor resolution. It looks like the snap release gains the most amount of bend and cock around P5, then it all releases into the ball. A sweeping release does not have the same amount of bend and cock, and release it more gradually.

Greg Norman made a sort of device you strap onto the right hand to prevent the right wrist bend from being lost, haven't seen much talk about it though. The difficult part in controlling PA5 would be to prevent flipping, which is a pretty big problem. Optimizing the point of max bend is one thing, gaining control of it in the first place is another.

The interesting point about this being a power accumulator is that it's not just a matter of holding the angles, it's about them being released at the right time for the most amount of speed. With a sort of hinge and hold chipping motion you got a lot of bend at impact, probably too much if you were looking for more speed. Then again, it might just be impossible to hold back the angle that much on a full swing, the forces in motion will be too strong to control. It is easier to hold the angles with shorter clubs and lower speed, so you could be experiencing short irons not being proportionally shorter than the long irons. If you have good control of it and can lag the short irons as well as long ones, the difference will be more proportional.

I'm just rambling through some thoughts here, stop me when it gets out of hand. It's just that this is an interesting subject for me.

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Originally Posted by Zeph

What I was trying to ask is if you can regain the right wrist bend angle during the downswing before impact. Can the angle go from 130 to 140 and to 130 again before impact, assuming it's a full speed swing?

Yes. Some golfers reach maximum "loading" or maximum bend at P4, but plenty of others do it as late as "almost P6." As Dave said we see ourselves teaching a lot of people to ADD to this bend during the downswing (or feel that they are).

But to be clear that's not once you've started the throwing action. That's simply delaying the loading, not re-loading after unloading, which I imagine is virtually impossible to do during the downswing. The rest of your paragraph seems to indicate to me that is the answer you were looking for.

Originally Posted by Zeph

#2 and this new #5 is of course not the same, but they are interrelated.

Of course they are, as they're all in the wrists. #1 and #4 are "interrelated" as well, but they're still different accumulators.

Originally Posted by Zeph

It is of course difficult to measure these angles with stationary cameras, often with poor resolution.

I don't think so. You just need to capture a few swings from a few different locations (basically along the axis of your right wrist at any given point . We're looking to do this soon.

Originally Posted by Zeph

Greg Norman made a sort of device you strap onto the right hand to prevent the right wrist bend from being lost, haven't seen much talk about it though. The difficult part in controlling PA5 would be to prevent flipping, which is a pretty big problem. Optimizing the point of max bend is one thing, gaining control of it in the first place is another.

We aren't saying that we're going to teach the use of this accumulator to all students or even most students. We can't say for sure yet but we're pretty sure if we had a flipper we'd be telling the guy to NEVER unload it, or to LOAD it more during the downswing...

Originally Posted by Zeph

The interesting point about this being a power accumulator is that it's not just a matter of holding the angles, it's about them being released at the right time for the most amount of speed.

Yes, just the same as the others...

Short answers for now. Sorry, watching the Pens and then golf. :-)

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Originally Posted by Zeph

Greg Norman made a sort of device you strap onto the right hand to prevent the right wrist bend from being lost, haven't seen much talk about it though. The difficult part in controlling PA5 would be to prevent flipping, which is a pretty big problem. Optimizing the point of max bend is one thing, gaining control of it in the first place is another.

The interesting point about this being a power accumulator is that it's not just a matter of holding the angles, it's about them being released at the right time for the most amount of speed. With a sort of hinge and hold chipping motion you got a lot of bend at impact, probably too much if you were looking for more speed. Then again, it might just be impossible to hold back the angle that much on a full swing, the forces in motion will be too strong to control. It is easier to hold the angles with shorter clubs and lower speed, so you could be experiencing short irons not being proportionally shorter than the long irons. If you have good control of it and can lag the short irons as well as long ones, the difference will be more proportional.

I'm just rambling through some thoughts here, stop me when it gets out of hand.  It's just that this is an interesting subject for me.


The Norman device was originally called The Secret (not sure if Norman called it that but same device) and it was put out first by John Schlee I believe (Schlee had spent time with Hogan and this was built as a sort of "supination" training device).  You are right though the Secret was attempting to fix the right wrist bend.  Quick point...though Hogan certainly had the angle in the right wrist at impact (quality video tough to come by) I am certain it went from maximum bend to "less" than maximum in his swing.

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Thanks for the thread Dave.  As an engineer by trade, I would have to ask, "Is the 5th accumulator really an independant variable?".  You can argue that 1 - 4 are independant variables that act separately during motion, which The Golfing Machine states.  Each can be manipulated while holding the others constant for the most part.  The 5th accumulator may be an interactive variable and may depend on 2 and 3.  If you cock the left wrist, will the right wrist angle change?  If you change the angle between the left forearm and shaft, will the angle between the right hand and forearm change?

I don't know the answers without testing and you may have already thought of this.  But to really declare it independant, it should be able to be held constant while the others change.  It is a principle of Design of Experiments and may be fun to test.

Sorry for being a geek in advance.

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Originally Posted by boogielicious

Thanks for the thread Dave.  As an engineer by trade, I would have to ask, "Is the 5th accumulator really an independant variable?".  You can argue that 1 - 4 are independant variables that act separately during motion, which The Golfing Machine states.  Each can be manipulated while holding the others constant for the most part.  The 5th accumulator may be an interactive variable and may depend on 2 and 3.  If you cock the left wrist, will the right wrist angle change?  If you change the angle between the left forearm and shaft, will the angle between the right hand and forearm change?

I don't know the answers without testing and you may have already thought of this.  But to really declare it independant, it should be able to be held constant while the others change.  It is a principle of Design of Experiments and may be fun to test.

Sorry for being a geek in advance.


Good post and good questions/points.  Before any comments I have a question back actually - where in TGM do you find it states that the PA's are independent variables that act separately during motion...I "know" the book but am certainly not the #1 expert...just don't remember that stated in that manner.

I would actually say that they are all linked (to at least one other) to some extent.  I agree that you "can", for example, cock and uncock the left wrist (#2) without doing anything else but #2 needs #3 to work in a golf sense.  Also you can't REALLY load 4 properly without affecting 1, etc (and vice versa unless you bend the left elbow...or load 2 :>)).  As far as #5 goes I can quite simply use it alone and produce power.  In fact I can "chip" the ball a decent ways without using any of the other 4 whatsoever (unless the left hand grip was in a very, very strong position and then 2 would be engaged at the same time).  I guess, bottom line you could "find a way" to use any of these independently but I don't believe their use would be in the way intended (as in a proper golf stroke).

Dave

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Not sure if it is stated in TGM, but usually when you make a case for "variables" you are assuming they are independent.  For example, what are the independent variables for how far a ball will fly, club head speed at impact, angle of club face at impact, etc.

Good point about chipping and #5.  that may be the best way to test to see if it is independent.  You could chip the ball varying each accumulator while holding the others constant.  You could do the same for the other accumulators.

this will be fun to think about while I recover from shoulder surgery on Wednesday, arrrrghh.

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Originally Posted by david_wedzik

The Norman device was originally called The Secret (not sure if Norman called it that but same device) and it was put out first by John Schlee I believe (Schlee had spent time with Hogan and this was built as a sort of "supination" training device).  You are right though the Secret was attempting to fix the right wrist bend.  Quick point...though Hogan certainly had the angle in the right wrist at impact (quality video tough to come by) I am certain it went from maximum bend to "less" than maximum in his swing.



Is The Secret the same thing as Dr. Gary Wiren's The Key? I have The Key and must admit it is an excellent training aid for helping you keep the right wrist under control throughout the swing. It is very difficult to flip with The Key attached to your wrist.

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While I think it impacts a swing (what doesn't), I'm having a hard time considering it a separate PA.  I can't see how it's not simply a result of #2 and #3, if your grip doesn't change during the swing.  Sitting here in my office with a club, I can't not bend my right wrist when executing #2 and #3.  And proposed #5 (that's my term) is absolutely related to #2 and #3 and how severe each is executed.

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Interesting indeed.

A question:

Is releasing PA5 done during the "release"? Where would you define that it is released? I ask because I think there is a different amount of release depending on if you use CF or CP. It seems to me that CF would have a great deal more release of PA5. What are your thoughts on this?

P.S. I hate using the word release because it is used so differently, but I cannot think of a better word.

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