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Gerald

Push = ball too far forward ?

21 posts in this topic

I went to some trouble pushing a lot of 250+ drives a few degrees to the right, not really a big deal, but at our course with narrow fairways I have been into a few bad lies, uneven lies and into the woods.

I took some lessons and the push, became more like a push draw ..... not too bad

But I prefer a straight flight as a straight ball is way more predictable than a push that is sometimes a draw and sometimes a push......

Browsing through some old stuff (overhere) .... I somewhere read that playing the ball too much forward, could result into some serious pushes .......

So I am playing the ball with the driver from just inside my left heel now, and most drives are straight or baby fade/draw now ........

Cheap trick or ???

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I dunno Gerald... I'll be listening in for the answer myself!

I am having similar problems.  At first I thought I was simply having alignment problems.  So I slowed down my pre-shot routine and really concentrated on that one tiny blade of grass 8 inches in front of the ball as my psuedo aimpoint.  So nope... it's not alignment.  I'm definitely pushing it left, just like you described.  Then I try to compensate for it by aiming 5 degrees right.. and yep.. you guessed it... that's when I hit it straight.  *Sigh*  Such a hard game!

I'll shut up now and eavesdrop for the advice everyone gives you.  Thanks.

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My understanding is that typically playing the ball too far forward results in a pull.  You swing the club in an arc around your body.  The farther forward on that arc you place the ball the more likely you are to hit it from the outside swinging in.  The farther back you play it the more likely an inside out swing.

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I've been told many contradicting things throughout the time I've been playing, but here are few things to think about:

1. Ball farther forward- can cause hooks/pulls because the club face is allowed more time to get backed to square

2. Ball forward- can cause fades because the club is already returning back towards the body, so it's like an outside-in- swing path.

3. To my knowledge the only thing that can cause a push is an open club face at impact. You can try moving the ball or changing your swing, but I think that may lead to more problems, especially if you're trying to hit straight and not work it one way or another.

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Originally Posted by kurtwainwright

I dunno Gerald... I'll be listening in for the answer myself!

I am having similar problems.  At first I thought I was simply having alignment problems.  So I slowed down my pre-shot routine and really concentrated on that one tiny blade of grass 8 inches in front of the ball as my psuedo aimpoint.  So nope... it's not alignment.  I'm definitely pushing it left, just like you described.  Then I try to compensate for it by aiming 5 degrees right.. and yep.. you guessed it... that's when I hit it straight.  *Sigh*  Such a hard game!

I'll shut up now and eavesdrop for the advice everyone gives you.  Thanks.

If you are right-handed, as your profile indicates, and you are hitting it left, then I think you are pulling the ball, not pushing it.  The OP is a righty who is hitting the ball to the right of the target line, which is a push.  Pulling or hooking the ball (hitting it straight left or curving left, respectively, for a right-hander) can definitely be the result of placing the ball too far forward in the stance.  I sometimes run into this problem with my woods off the tee.

To the OP, I don't really know how placing the ball too far forward could result in a push.  A straight push would be the result of an in-to-out swing path accompanied by a clubface perpendicular to the swing path at impact.  With an in-to-out swing path, I would think placing the ball too far forward would more likely result in a draw or hook, as your club face will tend to be more closed farther forward in your swing.  Perhaps it has more to do with your distance from the ball at address?  I remember last year watching something where Martin Kaymer explained that when he wanted to hit a draw with his driver he stood farther from the ball at address, and when he wanted to hit a fade he stood closer to the ball at address.

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A pretty decent golfer, though not a Pro or instructor or anything, told me that if your swing tends to either draw or fade on a consistent basis that moving the ball up a little tends to reduce the amount of draw or fade. I don't know the reasoning behind this at all or if it is even true but it worked for me. I used to fade everything terribly, then this guy recommended I move the ball up a bit and now while everything still fades it fades consistently and gently enough that i can aim for it.

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Let's look at the geometry behind moving the ball forward. Most likely you will be closer to lowpoint, or forward of it. Which means that you will hit the ball less in-out or more out-in, depending on your swing plane angle. Normally the clubface will start to close through lowpoint. I suspect you moved the ball back when you were hitting push draws, as it is a result of the club moving in-out with a slightly open clubface to the target. If you move the ball more forward, you will hit the ball on lowpoint or slightly forward, which will be closer to a straight shot or small fade. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/135706/width/1000/height/800][IMG]http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/135706/width/1000/height/500[/IMG][/URL] The part that can be confusing in all this is the swing plane line. Just because you align parallell to the target doesn't mean you'll swing along that line. Someone swinging a lot from in-to-out will have a hard time hitting a fade. If you swing perfectly square to the target line, moving the ball forward or backward can result in fade and draw. Regardless of where your swing plane line is, moving the ball back will cause you to hit more out on it or less in and moving it forward will cause you to hit more in or less out. So to answer the question, yes, moving the ball forward of a position you hit a push-draw from can result in a fade. Here is a thread that discusses the exact topic: [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/44307/hitting-up-or-down-with-the-driver-in-an-inline-pattern]Hitting Up or Down with the Driver in an Inline Pattern[/URL] The clubface angle will have to be different on each ball position, but it usually is all by itself since the clubface moves from open to closed during the downswing. I have done exactly the same as you with my driver. Once I started swinging more in-out, I started drawing the ball. But I prefer hitting a fade with the driver, so I moved the ball to the inside of my left heel. If I want to hit a straight drive or draw, I'll move the ball a bit back in my stance and push the hips more forward. If I get the clubface angle right, the result is usually good. If you hit the ball on lowpoint with a square swing plane line and square clubface, it will go perfectly straight. Depending on your swing plane line, you may have to hit it on some side of lowpoint to hit it straight. Btw, a push is a shot going straight to the right of the target, which is only possible with the clubhead moving in-out at impact and an open clubface (square to the swing path). Of course if you hit the ball with an open clubface on a forward ball position, the ball will start right and curve too far right.
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Imagine your setup was perfect and you hit a perfectly straight shot.  Now keep the exact same swing and move the ball forward only.  You will hit a pull off the toe.  The problem with this line of reasoning is that nobody makes the same swing when the ball position is different.  You hit the ball where it lies.  If the ball is too far back, you will hang back and flip so as not to top it.  This kind of swing tends to generate a pull hook.  If the ball is too far forward you will make an aggressive shift and hold the face square to open.  This kind of swing tends to generate a push-fade.  My stock shot is a push-draw.  I know for a fact that my club face is slightly open at impact.  I would say my ball position is around 9 inches or so back from my lead foot, whatever that's worth.

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I have the same problem if I play the ball too far forward, I start to push or push/slice it.  This also happens if I have the ball too far 'away' from me, ie - my hands aren't hanging straight down but are stretched out some.  I've corrected both these things and drove the ball really well last round, 11/14 fairways at about 250ish (still no roll up here in NW).

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Originally Posted by Zeph


Such a nice diagram. If you hit the ball earlier in an in-out swing, the club face will be slightly open at contact resulting in a straight push. If the ball is more forward, the club may be moving inward of the target line. If the club face is slightly closed, a pull or pull hook can result. If the club face is square but moving out-in at that point, varying degrees of slice or pull slice are likely to result. So, if you want a straight push, I would recommend moving the ball back slightly with a slightly open stance. Which, by the way, is the Trevino method for hitting a fade, which is really mostly a straight shot with minimal left-right movement.

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Playing the ball to far forward is causing you to make a needed lateral shift on the through swing to square the face resulting in pushes or coming out if it. Generally speaking there a few adaptations needed to play the ball slightly ahead of the standard position. First you need to level out your shoulders a bit and open your hips. This compensates for the ball placement from here a well time drive will be a high draw or high straight shot. It sounds to me your outside of the hittable zone being the ball is just way to far forward an no compensation can help you. Same goes as playing the ball to far back. There just comes a point where it's just nearly impossible to hit the ball anywhere consistently from out of the normal ball position period!  Consider the fact when you play the ball 3 inches forward or back it's similar to trouble shots on the course like ball below your feet which also requires some adaptation and a lower percentage of success overall towards your target.

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Playing the ball to far forward is causing you to make a needed lateral shift on the through swing to square the face resulting in pushes or coming out if it. Generally speaking there a few adaptations needed to play the ball slightly ahead of the standard position. First you need to level out your shoulders a bit and open your hips. This compensates for the ball placement from here a well time drive will be a high draw or high straight shot. It sounds to me your outside of the hittable zone being the ball is just way to far forward an no compensation can help you. Same goes as playing the ball to far back. There just comes a point where it's just nearly impossible to hit the ball anywhere consistently from out of the normal ball position period!  Consider the fact when you play the ball 3 inches forward or back it's similar to trouble shots on the course like ball below your feet which also requires some adaptation and a lower percentage of success overall towards your target.

This thread is four years old.

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This thread is four years old.

Does that make it any less relevant today? I suffer from a push fade and look forward to reading what anyone has to add to this thread.

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Does that make it any less relevant today?

I suffer from a push fade and look forward to reading what anyone has to add to this thread.

No, it doesn't make it less relevant.

But to that, I will say this: moving the ball back tends to make the face return even more open, resulting in bigger pushes and ostensibly at least the same amount of fade if not more.

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A dead straight push is cause 99 percent of the time by chasing the ball down the line instead of letting the club swing around your body.  If the ball is curving, your leaving the face open. Most likely rolling it open on the back swing.

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A straight push to the right is a club head path traveling down just right of the target line [ a inside to out swing path ] a push fade is the same as above plus the face is open...

If your ball is to far forward then you are sliding forward and getting ahead of the ball...this swing still is the above you still are swinging inside out your just ahead of the ball at impact

Stick a club shaft in the ground straight up just outside your left foot...hit a ball and see if you knock the shaft with your left leg.if you do then try hitting balls without hitting the shaft and see what the ball flight is..This may solve your ball flight and stop you from sliding to far and getting ahead of the ball.....

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No, it doesn't make it less relevant.

But to that, I will say this: moving the ball back tends to make the face return even more open, resulting in bigger pushes and ostensibly at least the same amount of fade if not more.

This is what I found as well. It's really hard to swing inside to out with the ball that forward.

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A straight push to the right is a club head path traveling down just right of the target line [ a inside to out swing path ] a push fade is the same as above plus the face is open...

You can hit a push-fade with the path left of the target, too.

Face: +4° Path: -2°.

Push fade.

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