Got a question for a club fitter,.... or even a tech guru

[Shaggy]

I started back playing about 9 months ago after a 4 year break from golf due to back surgery, " disk replacement". In 2005, I had purchased a new set of Callaway Fusion irons and was fit at my local golf shop. My specs for my Fusions were .25" longer and up 2deg lie. Well,... I have been working with a PGA pro instructor weekly for the past several weeks and  I practice appx 3 hours daily,... tryin to build a muscle memory of the swing changes that my instructor is trying to instill in me. When I started back, I didnt just want a band-aid type of approach,.... so he had me start from the basics of grip, posture, stance, and then concentrate on ball contact on short shots and then slowly work from there upwards. I recently wanted to purchase me a set of irons with more feel than the titanium face Fusions provided, but would still be forgiving. I went to a local demo days and tried many different brands and models of irons and finally decided on the Mizuno JPX-800 pro irons. I was fitted by their rep and he said my specs were standard length and -3 deg lie down. Two different brand reps also fit me very closely to what the Mizuno fitting specs were. I then went to my local golf shop and had them re-fit me since I thought my specs were way off from what that golf shop fit me for 4 years earlier. They did and also came up with very similar specs to the Mizuno and other companies.

My question is this: From a technical standpoint,..... Is it common for a persons club fitting over a few years to change that much? Was just curious as to what aspect affected the change the most,... my back surgery or the lessons? By the way,... I'm 6-02, 230lbs 40 years old and my driver swing speed is 106 - 110mph. And a little info on my swing is I used to hit a fade and sometimes a slice and now I have a consistant draw or straight ball flight or when I get too handsy I can get a hook. I'm just a kinda technical person and was curious, because I am striking the ball much better with the new irons.

[LankyLefty]

Well im no expert but I can say that over 5 years and a complete swing overhaul a change in Fitting specs should be expected. I mean the length change would seem off if it was not so minute could just be that they no longer advise changes in that small a increment. Maybe you were wearing differant shoes... idk .25 inches seems like nothing to me. The lie thing however seems very swing dependent so a change in swing really should create a change in optimal lie id think. But again im no expert just my humble opinion.

[Shaggy]

Yeah,... When I told the guys at Mizuno that I had been playing a +.25 length they said my measurements and specs said I fall right in the center of the standard length. They also said that even though .25" dont sound like much that with my new swing overhaul I would probably be hitting the ball more consistant in the "sweet spot" more often with the standard length when compared with the added +.25". They also even proved to me by letting me hit the same club with a standard length shaft and with a shaft +.25" length shaft with impact tape on the face.  It was obvious after hitting a few balls with each setup that my impact area was much smaller and in the center of the club face on the standard length shaft as when compared to the +.25" shaft. Its just kinda amazing to me how just a quarter of an inch can make such a difference. Funny thing is now I thought I would have lost distance with my new irons but im actually hitting my irons almost a full club length farther than I did with my old irons.

It just seems odd to me that today so many companies are making clubs marketed as game improvement clubs and they say how much longer you can hit them and how hot the face is and so on and so on. But in reality in alot of cases they are adding length to the irons and delofting them which is making them "longer", but also makes them more difficult for the average mid to high handicapper to hit well. Simple fact is that if you have a club thats the loft of a 4 iron and the length of a 4 iron and then stamp a 5 on it that dont make it a 5 iron,... And we all know that a 4 iron is more difficult for the average guy to hit than a 5 iron. It just seems to me that golf companies know that is not really gonna lower a persons score or even really help them much but they are being forced to produce a product that the average Joe is asking for. The same can be said for alot of the drivers today,... they are adding more and more length to the shafts which does increase clubhead speed but usually at the price of control.

[newtogolf]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

But in reality in alot of cases they are adding length to the irons and delofting them which is making them "longer", but also makes them more difficult for the average mid to high handicapper to hit well. Simple fact is that if you have a club thats the loft of a 4 iron and the length of a 4 iron and then stamp a 5 on it that dont make it a 5 iron,... And we all know that a 4 iron is more difficult for the average guy to hit than a 5 iron. It just seems to me that golf companies know that is not really gonna lower a persons score or even really help them much but they are being forced to produce a product that the average Joe is asking for. The same can be said for alot of the drivers today,... they are adding more and more length to the shafts which does increase clubhead speed but usually at the price of control.

Tom Wishon has a good book on it, "12 Myths That Could Wreck Your Golf Game".  He states that beginner - average golfers have difficulty hitting clubs with less than 24* of loft and/or are longer than 38", calls it the 24/38 Rule.  Prior to the 90's the only irons that fell outside of the 24/38 Rule were 1-3 irons, today most iron sets have 4i & 5i that fall outside the 24/38 rule which he reasons is why most SGI sets replace the 31, 4i & 5i with hybrids.  He believes beginner - average golfers should start with irons 6 - SW, and not even buy the 3i - 5i because they will be too difficult to hit.  He also blames this trend for the elimination of the 1i & 2i, because with the current sets lofts these clubs would be unhittable except by single digit handicappers.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Tom Wishon has a good book on it, "12 Myths That Could Wreck Your Golf Game".  He states that beginner - average golfers have difficulty hitting clubs with less than 24* of loft and/or are longer than 38", calls it the 24/38 Rule.  Prior to the 90's the only irons that fell outside of the 24/38 Rule were 1-3 irons, today most iron sets have 4i & 5i that fall outside the 24/38 rule which he reasons is why most SGI sets replace the 31, 4i & 5i with hybrids.  He believes beginner - average golfers should start with irons 6 - SW, and not even buy the 3i - 5i because they will be too difficult to hit.  He also blames this trend for the elimination of the 1i & 2i, because with the current sets lofts these clubs would be unhittable except by single digit handicappers.

That is something that has me wandering,...... What was the reason for the companies to add shaft length and deloft their irons? Was it just for the extra gains in distance? One would think that with all the advances in golf head shapes and metal technology today that they could make a club with conventional lengths and lofts. It seems to me that it could still be plenty long but could also be accurate and forgiving. I guess its easier to market a new club to newbies or the average golfer by saying that its the longest iron ever as opposed to saying they make an iron that has traditional lofts and lengths and is easier to hit well and is accurate than the "bomber" irons, but may not be as long. I'm not a club fitter or a club maker but this subject just had me thinking recently. It's almost like the companies are making clubs that are not really any "easier" to hit because they are jacking up the lengths and lofts just to add distance while they hope their head designs are forgiving enough to compensate for that.

[LankyLefty]

I certainly agree with that, though my troubles really started at the 4 Iron my 5 was always good to me. I have since replaced the 3-5 with hybrids and while I dont necessarily hit great shots with those hybrids yet the slight mishits on the hybrids are a lot more forgiving then slight mishits on my old Irons. I am also constantly shocked by how well the hybrids make contact out of tight lies or through thick grass.

EDIT: In response to shaggy's last post. The reason is that more and more as materials and designs have improved you get a higher ball flight out of less loft while maintaining distance. I also have my suspicions over weather they do this to force you to buy an extra wedge to fit in the ever increasing gap between your PW and SW.

[newtogolf]

I don't know the exact reason, but I'd guess it's more likely to relate to the clubs we see pro's hit (though they deloft theirs even more) and for marketing purposes.  Marketing is competing to sell the longest clubs and to get those with older clubs to "add 10 yards" over their current set.  The club makers benefit also because most sets are 3i - PW and since most beginners - average players can't hit a 3i - 5i they then have to go out and buy hybrids to replace these clubs.  On the other end, you have to add a gap wedge and maybe a 60* wedge to cover the shorter distances with a full swing.

Wishon, a custom club fitter and maker uses this as justification to be custom fit and buy custom clubs so that you can hit every club you buy and don't waste any money buying clubs you can't hit accurately.

Originally Posted by Shaggy

That is something that has me wandering,...... What was the reason for the companies to add shaft length and deloft their irons? Was it just for the extra gains in distance? One would think that with all the advances in golf head shapes and metal technology today that they could make a club with conventional lengths and lofts. It seems to me that it could still be plenty long but could also be accurate and forgiving. I guess its easier to market a new club to newbies or the average golfer by saying that its the longest iron ever as opposed to saying they make an iron that has traditional lofts and lengths and is easier to hit well and is accurate than the "bomber" irons, but may not be as long. I'm not a club fitter or a club maker but this subject just had me thinking recently. It's almost like the companies are making clubs that are not really any "easier" to hit because they are jacking up the lengths and lofts just to add distance while they hope their head designs are forgiving enough to compensate for that.

[jmanbooyaa]

i just had a fitting and had .25 added to the shaft length. I am 6'2 190lbs. I am also going from GI irons x-20's standard length with uniflex shaft to forged Mac's with KBS stiff shafts. The lie was also adjusted but sorry can't remember to what extent(1st fitting). I have not picked them up yet and am very curious what my swing will be like. x-20 standard length are already .25 shorter per iron than the stock KBS in the Macs so i guess i am actually a half longer. Should be interesting, my next lesson should be interesting.