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Tom Wishon on being fit for clubs


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Not sure I have a real purpose to this post, other than I loved the way Tom Wishon put in to perspective the importance of being fitted for the right clubs.  I am reading his book "The Search for the Perfect Driver" at the moment.  Excellent book so far!

The Search for the Perfect Driver

If I ever decide to get out of the golf business, I think I am going to open up a running shoe store based on the same business model as a retail golf store that sells the heavily marketed, brand-name golf clubs. I will have hundreds of shoes to choose from, but all of them will be the same size—9½ for men, which is about their national average, and 7½ for women, which is about their average shoe size. If your foot happens to be a 9½ or your wife’s a 7½, all well and good. If it doesn’t, wear them anyway. After all, it’s not the shoe; it’s the runner, right?

When you buy a driver off the rack, you are buying a club that has been designed and assembled to some kind of national average— or worse, made to what the marketing mavens believe the majority of you and your golf friends will be receptive to. When you put on a pair of shoes, you can immediately tell if they don’t fit. With a driver, or any other golf club for that matter, most people can’t. They hit a high percentage of bad tee shots and automatically assume it’s their swing that’s the cause. With shoes you’ve learned over a lifetime what to look for and look out for. Most golfers can’t even begin to do that with their clubs.

I am firmly in the "learn the fundamentals" camp.  But I also firmly believe that to get the best out of your game, your clubs need to fit you as well.  And I do not believe that always means the big well know name brands, or the most expensive ones.  Tweaky said it best in an earlier post, there is a world of golf beyond the major name brands.

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The hard part is finding someone locally who can do it Wishons' way....that mystery Guru with all the catalogs and secret knowledge that goes beyond Taylor vs Ping vs Cleveland.

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I have found at least 5 custom club builders in the area around my little podunk town.  They are our there, lurking in the background.

But beyond the full out "custom built from components out of the Wishon/Maltby/Hireko catalog" set, the benefits of being fit to a particular head (X-22, G15, AP2, etc), the right shaft, the correct length, correct lie angle, etc will far outweigh the off-the-shelf set of irons.

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What's amazing (to me) is how easy this was to do with irons. I even got my starter set fit to me five years ago. Then I got my first non-starter set of irons. I had a custom shaft length, grip size, and configuration. I extended this to the wedges. Then when I replaced the wedges, I went with off the rack. I just picked up last Friday a wedge with a shaft like what I have in my irons (I didn't soft step it though), and I already hit it so much better. But somehow, I'm getting my drivers, woods, and hybrids off the rack. The only caution I'll say about custom fitters is make sure you are being fit to the best clubs for you, not for the fitter's wallet. One clubfitter around Los Angeles is notorious now for fitting everyone to the same shafts. When you see someone here with these in their irons, it's a running joke to point out who the fitter was. One of these days, I'll learn to fit myself, and maybe even learn some club building while we're at it.

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

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After reading one of Tom's books I got measured for a new driver length.  Ended up cutting my shaft down to 44", am hitting it more solid now.

In my bag:Driver: 910D2, 10.25˚, Aldila RIP, Fairway: 904F, 15˚, YS-6FW+ Stiff, Hybrid: Titleist 910H, Irons: S-58, 4-PW, DG S300, Wedges: Wishon 52˚, 56˚, Putter: Odyssey Black series i 1

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I've read and enjoyed most of Wishons books.  I can't help be a bit skeptical that the books are a bit self serving given his business is to custom fit and build clubs and the people he's bashing are his competitors.  I don't argue that some of the points he's making are likely valid, but he tends to generalize a little too much for his own benefit.  Anyone can be fit for a major manufacturer clubs, but he insinuates that very few people except for professional fitters in his company know how to properly.

Professional baseball and hockey players have bats and hockey sticks created specifically for their individual attributes while the rest of us that play for fun to semi-seriously seem to do okay with off the shelf equipment.  I know it's not an apple to apple comparison, but I think he makes golf club fitting seem a bit more complicated than it needs to be for his own financial gain.

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Joe Paradiso

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I feel that getting fit is probably a good thing. It gets you an idea of some info that is good for you. However comparing it to shoes is a stupid comparison.

I happen to wear a 11.5, but depending on the type and make i'm sometimes a 11 sometimes a 12. A 12.5 is little big but OK and a 10.5 is tight but I can stretch them. I used to play rugby and my cleats were 10.5 because I liked the fit once they got stretched out.

Shoes are also SOOO much more variable then golf clubs. Shaft lengths differ by less then 15% at a max and usually more like less then 5%. Shoe sizes can differ by over 100% but usually more like 60-70%.

I respect the ability of a custom club maker to make clubs to fit a person as much as I respect custom shoe makers who can make fitted shoes to match your feet.

However I view the "fitting" that you get at a place like a retail store more along the line of sticking your foot on one of those measures they have in shoe stores. The information is useful but It aint no custom fit shoe just a educated guess, that is helpful but not essential.

nickent.gif4DX Evolver Driver, ping.gif Rapture 3 Wood, taylormade.gif Burner 08 5 Wood, nickent.gif 3DX RC 3-4 & 5DX 5 Hybrid,
nickent.gif 6-PW 3DX Hybrid Irons, cleveland.gif High Bore 09 GW-SW, touredge.gif 60* Wedge, maxfli.gif Revolution Blade Insert Putter
 
Yes I'm Aware That's 16 Clubs!
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Originally Posted by LankyLefty

I feel that getting fit is probably a good thing. It gets you an idea of some info that is good for you. However comparing it to shoes is a stupid comparison.


Even though I think you are reading more into his quote than it was intended, using your analogy, I think you make his shoe reference point spot on!  One makers 11.5 shoe doesn't wear the same as another makers 11.5.  The toe box might be a different shape, different arch, different width, sole, etc.  And it will feel and wear differently.

One company's 7 iron may be a different loft, lie, length, sole width, COG, MOI, etc, and play completely different from another company's 7 iron.  One makers R flex can actually be anothers S flex.  1°-2° of lie can make the different between the toe digging in at impact or not.

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

However I view the "fitting" that you get at a place like a retail store more along the line of sticking your foot on one of those measures they have in shoe stores. The information is useful but It aint no custom fit shoe just a educated guess, that is helpful but not essential.

On this I respectfully disagree.  Unless a person is fit a Target (for both shoes and clubs! )  Use of a launch monitor, lie board, the ability to test a variety of shafts, heads, lengths is very valuable.  But, the LAST place I would go to get fitted is a box store.  There are far too many club fitters and quality pro shops around here that can do a far better job.

I can wear shoes that are too big for me and get from A to B, but it sucks having to make compensations for every step so I don't trip.  If I can get a set of irons, or a driver, or a hybrid that fit ME and MY swing and not that of the general public, and allows me to swing without needing to manipulate something to make a good strike... bring it!

Originally Posted by Newtogolf

I know it's not an apple to apple comparison, but I think he makes golf club fitting seem a bit more complicated than it needs to be for his own financial gain.

I don't disagree at all with that statement.  He is in the business of manufacturing components for custom builders, so he absolutely has a dog in the hunt.  But I tend to block out the "I am great" parts and see the technical side of it too, and it makes perfect sense.  I guess that's the downside of being an engineer!

Originally Posted by Shindig

One of these days, I'll learn to fit myself, and maybe even learn some club building while we're at it.

DO IT!!  I just finished building a set of irons for myself, and after a couple range sessions, my bought-in-September Callaway X-22's are now in the "spares" bag.

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Originally Posted by LankyLefty

Shoe sizes can differ by over 100% but usually more like 60-70%.


100%?   Really?    So one manufacturers size 11 is the same as another's size 22?        I get where you're coming from in your argument (don't really agree, but I see your point) about shoes versus clubfitting, but such claims like this kind of hurt the credibility of your argument.

Back on the fitting topic, I'm kind of a fan of fitting, but feel it has become more of the "in thing" these days, probably driven by good marketing on the part of the golf retailers.    For years the club manufacturers have been driving churn (get rid of your old clubs because you need new ones) with claims of distance and forgivability.   With the economic downturn, however, the industry has been hit very hard and they're seeking new ways to increase club churn.   A little more thinking by their marketing departments and "Voila!" they discovered that they can convince you that your clubs completely don't fit you and that you need to get custom fit or else world peace and hunger will be at stake.    And the extra genius in this is it also gives the retailers another revenue stream (charge you for the fitting) or a competitive perk (buy from us and we'll throw in the fitting).       And for even more genius, they can make the same argument all over again when you change your swing from lessons or self-study.

There is certainly truth behind all of the messaging, but it seems it is getting out of hand.   We have driver fittings, iron fittings, putter fittings, ball fittings.    Any day now the industry will discover that we are all need golf tee fittings (the pegs, not the tee boxes).    Or ball marker fittings.     Hmmm, my briefs feel a bit tight....I bet I need to see a professional fitter!

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Originally Posted by Clambake

Hmmm, my briefs feel a bit tight....I bet I need to see a professional fitter!



That, my friend, can be a problem!!

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Originally Posted by Clambake

100%?   Really?    So one manufacturers size 11 is the same as another's size 22?        I get where you're coming from in your argument (don't really agree, but I see your point) about shoes versus clubfitting, but such claims like this kind of hurt the credibility of your argument.

There is certainly truth behind all of the messaging, but it seems it is getting out of hand.   We have driver fittings, iron fittings, putter fittings, ball fittings.    Any day now the industry will discover that we are all need golf tee fittings (the pegs, not the tee boxes).    Or ball marker fittings.     Hmmm, my briefs feel a bit tight....I bet I need to see a professional fitter!


The smallest and biggest guys who buy clubs may get 3 inches cut off or added to a 35-45 inch shaft. The Biggest guys who walk into your average shoe store are probably size 13 or 14 which is 100% larger then a size 5 or 6.

On the second point this is why I almost hate going to golf shops anymore. They are like these big money pits. You look at a new set of Irons that are say $500, then they tell you that you need to spent an extra $100 to get fitted which bumps the price of the Irons up a bunch because they now are "custom". Then they try to sell you a ball fitting so that you can hit the custom clubs the best possible and before you know it youve spent 1000 bucks on a 500 dollar item, you can tell me thats good for my game all you want but to me It sounds like a scam.

Like I said fitting gives you some very useful information, but Ill stick to getting my shoes fit for different sizes at least they don't charge you half the price of the shoe for that.

nickent.gif4DX Evolver Driver, ping.gif Rapture 3 Wood, taylormade.gif Burner 08 5 Wood, nickent.gif 3DX RC 3-4 & 5DX 5 Hybrid,
nickent.gif 6-PW 3DX Hybrid Irons, cleveland.gif High Bore 09 GW-SW, touredge.gif 60* Wedge, maxfli.gif Revolution Blade Insert Putter
 
Yes I'm Aware That's 16 Clubs!
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Originally Posted by LankyLefty

You look at a new set of Irons that are say $500, then they tell you that you need to spent an extra $100 to get fitted which bumps the price of the Irons up a bunch because they now are "custom".


That's why I don't go in to those either unless it's for something trivial.  I built my custom set of irons for $230 and couldn't be happier, and said bye bye to the new Callaways!

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Originally Posted by Mark5

The hard part is finding someone locally who can do it Wishons' way....that mystery Guru with all the catalogs and secret knowledge that goes beyond Taylor vs Ping vs Cleveland.


Yes, they really try to hide that stuff.

Fitters: http://www.twgolftech.com/locator.php

Catalog: http://www.epaperflip.com/aglaia/viewer.aspx?docid=5de3436227db4962a54a86b737eaad92

Look, given my bag, obviously I'm a believer  -- so take my testimony for what you judge it's worth. But I feel I've substantially improved as a direct result of getting custom fitted. And the quality of the clubs is every bit as good as any OEM I've played previously. Better, in at least one way, which is that I can get hand picked lofts and face angles rather than relying on what's stamped on the bottom of the club -- which generally only intermittently corresponds to reality.

Originally Posted by Shindig

One of these days, I'll learn to fit myself, and maybe even learn some club building while we're at it.


Do yourself a favor and pick up a copy of Wishon's "Common Sense Clubfitting" as the first step in the process. Besides being encyclopedic, it's actually a bloody good read.

Stretch.

"In the process of trial and error, our failed attempts are meant to destroy arrogance and provoke humility." -- Master Jin Kwon

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Originally Posted by Clambake

100%?   Really?    So one manufacturers size 11 is the same as another's size 22?        I get where you're coming from in your argument (don't really agree, but I see your point) about shoes versus clubfitting, but such claims like this kind of hurt the credibility of your argument.

Originally Posted by LankyLefty

The smallest and biggest guys who buy clubs may get 3 inches cut off or added to a 35-45 inch shaft. The Biggest guys who walk into your average shoe store are probably size 13 or 14 which is 100% larger then a size 5 or 6.


Oh, got it.  I completely misread the meaning of your 100% comment thinking you meant 100% variability between manufacturers for the same size.   My bad!

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Originally Posted by glock35ipsc

Not sure I have a real purpose to this post, other than I loved the way Tom Wishon put in to perspective the importance of being fitted for the right clubs.  I am reading his book "The Search for the Perfect Driver" at the moment.  Excellent book so far!

I am firmly in the "learn the fundamentals" camp.  But I also firmly believe that to get the best out of your game, your clubs need to fit you as well.  And I do not believe that always means the big well know name brands, or the most expensive ones.  Tweaky said it best in an earlier post, there is a world of golf beyond the major name brands.

Keep in mind that Wishon is also doing nothing else than promoting his components ...... of course he has some great points, but standard golf clubs fit the majority of golfers and many brands offer all kinds of adjustments from the factory like 2-4 degrees flat or upright lies, and several shaft lengths, flexes and gripsizes ....... so at many brands you have the about same possibilities the so called gurus and fitters offer.

Besides that it is very hard to get a decent trade-in value, when you want to go for the next best set.

Cal Razr Hawk 10.5 | TM Superfast 3W | Adams Idea Pro Black 20 | MP-68 3-PW | TW9 50/06 + 58/12 | Ram Zebra Putter

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Originally Posted by Gerald

... but standard golf clubs fit the majority of golfers ...


That's really the crux of the entire argument right there. Do you have anything concrete to back up that assertion?

Stretch.

"In the process of trial and error, our failed attempts are meant to destroy arrogance and provoke humility." -- Master Jin Kwon

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The average Height of an American Male is 69.5 inches. with a standard deviation of 2.8 inches. which means that nearly 70% of American males fall between 66.7 inches and 72.3 inches.

I cannot find data on wrist to floor but assuming that It follows the same curve that means that according to most fitting charts more then 70% of Americans would be "fit" for a regular length club.

Now I'm aware that fitters do more then this. However in general the dimensions of a human population in any given part of the world have a very small standard deviation. We are all more similar then wed like to believe and more similar then Tom Wishon wants us to believe.

I respect what the man can do he has proven he can design golf clubs that work well for a players specific size and swing. However his notion that you cannot play to your max potential and his comparison to show size are completely bunk.

The standard deviation for shoe sizes in America is astronomical compared to the measures that decide golf clubs.

The fact is that "Regular" golf clubs fit most people well enough that they  will be able to go out, play and succeed with them.

EDIT: Just wanted to add a bit of an explanation for standard deviation for those who aren't too mathy or never took statistics.

Standard Deviation is a number representative of the spread of a set of data. For example is you took 10 peoples average driving distance and they ranged from 180-300 you'd have a higher standard deviation then if the range was only 270-300 because the numbers are spread out more.

In very large data sets, such as average height of an American, standard deviation allows you to stipulate how many in the data set fall within a certain range. In this large data set about 70% of the data will fall withing  1 Standard deviation above or below the average.

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nickent.gif 6-PW 3DX Hybrid Irons, cleveland.gif High Bore 09 GW-SW, touredge.gif 60* Wedge, maxfli.gif Revolution Blade Insert Putter
 
Yes I'm Aware That's 16 Clubs!
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I think you are taking the "size" part of the shoe size analogy a little too literally. It's not particularly meaningful to say that most golfers are 5'10" (or whatever) and 37.5" wrist-to-floor (or whatever) unless you are contending that those physical characteristics mean that those golfers will all swing a golf club roughly the same way. And no one who has ever been to any driving range in the world is going to seriously make that argument, right?
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Stretch.

"In the process of trial and error, our failed attempts are meant to destroy arrogance and provoke humility." -- Master Jin Kwon

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Note: This thread is 4333 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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