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Bunker lip and rule 25-2.


Stretch
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Had a situation in a bunker today that had me and my playing partners scratching our heads about how to proceed. On a long approach to a par 5 hole, my ball embedded almost completely in and under the four-inch high grass lip of the green side bunker. Nasty break. One of my buddies suggested I'd got lucky and was entitled to free relief under rule 25-2. We then had a debate about whether the bunker face was a "closely-mown area" (it was in the fairway/fringe and the area up to the vertical lip was cut short) and whether it mattered that the ball had punched through the grass to reach the sand below. Not being certain one way or another, I took an unplayable penalty. Anyway, thinking about it now I'm still not sure. Decision 25-2/5 says faces of bunkers are not considered closely mown areas "unless they are cut to fairway height or less", but that's not particularly helpful when you're comparing a vertical, string trimmed face with a horizontal, mown sward. Which has less "height"? Which direction are the grass plants assumed to be growing in? Then there's the question of where the ball is actually embedded. Decision 13-4 says an embedded ball "is considered to be lying in the part of the course where it entered the ground . In this case, the ball had clearly transited through the bottom of the grass lip in order to embed itself in the sand underneath. It was still touching the underside of the grass, but the majority of its circumference was in the sand. Would welcome the opinions of the rules gurus for future reference.

Stretch.

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All I can come up with besides what you have quoted is in the definition of bunker :  Note the last sentence in particular.  What I don't know is whether the definition or the decision takes priority.  I'm thinking that you would have to play as if the ball was in the bunker, or invoke Rule 3-3 and play a second ball, then let the committee decide.

Bunker

A "bunker" is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker, including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker. A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker. The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker.

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Originally Posted by Stretch

It was still touching the underside of the grass, but the majority of its circumference was in the sand.


There is your smoking gun.  It's touching sand in the bunker, therefore it should be played as such.

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Originally Posted by Stretch

It was still touching the underside of the grass, but the majority of its circumference was in the sand.


Originally Posted by case31

There is your smoking gun.  It's touching sand in the bunker, therefore it should be played as such.


Nope.

Concider a ball embedding into a grass covered lip of a bunker. According to the Dec 13/4 an embedded ball belongs to the part of the course where it entered the ground. Who is the wizard telling us where the soil ends and sand begins? This Decision is created for equity and simplicity. It is not the player's fault if his ball penetrates the lip and touches the sand of the bunker on one occasion and not on another. Embedded ball is embedded ball, period.

All in all, from the description of OP it is impossible to create a ruling. Suggestion from fourputt is a good one: let the Committee give a ruling, they are present and (should) know the Rules.

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Originally Posted by Ignorant

Nope.

Concider a ball embedding into a grass covered lip of a bunker. According to the Dec 13/4 an embedded ball belongs to the part of the course where it entered the ground. Who is the wizard telling us where the soil ends and sand begins? This Decision is created for equity and simplicity. It is not the player's fault if his ball penetrates the lip and touches the sand of the bunker on one occasion and not on another. Embedded ball is embedded ball, period.

All in all, from the description of OP it is impossible to create a ruling. Suggestion from fourputt is a good one: let the Committee give a ruling, they are present and (should) know the Rules.



Was he in a tournament? My instincts tell me that the right play is to either try and hack it out or take an unplayable (one stroke penalty) and drop the ball elsewhere in the hazard.

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I think the "Committee" approach makes sense.  On most courses, the sand in the bunkers is different enough from the soil / sod elsewhere that one could determine whether a ball is touching the bunker, even when that is the underside of the bunker.  On others, where the soil is itself sandy, it may be harder to define beginning of the underside of the bunker.  Seems hard to make a simple general ruling.  In a casual round, I'd let the group decide the equitable ruling.  On my own, I'd probably play it as an unplayable and make the fairest decision I could as to whether it should equitably be treated as in or out of the bunker.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Was he in a tournament? My instincts tell me that the right play is to either try and hack it out or take an unplayable (one stroke penalty) and drop the ball elsewhere in the hazard.


How would you know where to drop if you do not know if that ball is in  the bunker or through the green? That's the whole issue.

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Originally Posted by zeg

I think the "Committee" approach makes sense.  On most courses, the sand in the bunkers is different enough from the soil / sod elsewhere that one could determine whether a ball is touching the bunker, even when that is the underside of the bunker.  On others, where the soil is itself sandy, it may be harder to define beginning of the underside of the bunker.  Seems hard to make a simple general ruling.  In a casual round, I'd let the group decide the equitable ruling.  On my own, I'd probably play it as an unplayable and make the fairest decision I could as to whether it should equitably be treated as in or out of the bunker.



It is not a question whether sand and soil can or cannot be differentiated. The question is if the ball is embedded or not , and if embedded, is it embedded in the bunker or outside the bunker.

If the ball is embedded in a grass covered lip of a bunker it is not in that bunker regardless of the soil beneath that particular spot. That ball may very well touch the actual sand of that bunker but that is irrerelevant, that ball still lies through the green.

Situation changes completely if the ball penetrates a grass covered lip and falls into the bunker. In such a case that ball is in the bunker as it is not embedded anywhere through the green.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 3 years later...
To what should have happened on tHis occasion is that you would get a drop without penalty directly above in line with where the ball ended up as the line of the bunker is a vertical line down from the edge So strickly speaking you are not in the bunker and the rule is as I say free drop directly above where the ball is Better example if an animal had scrapped and made a burrow in the bunker and you went into it you would be deemed to be past the bunker and as I said get a free drop ( hope this helps in future )
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To what should have happened on tHis occasion is that you would get a drop without penalty directly above in line with where the ball ended up as the line of the bunker is a vertical line down from the edge So strickly speaking you are not in the bunker and the rule is as I say free drop directly above where the ball is Better example if an animal had scrapped and made a burrow in the bunker and you went into it you would be deemed to be past the bunker and as I said get a free drop ( hope this helps in future )

Not sure I'm following you but if I understand you correctly, you are not correct.

13/4

Ball Completely Embedded in Lip of Bunker

Q. A player's ball is completely embedded in the vertical lip of a bunker. The lip is not grass-covered, so it is part of the bunker. Is the ball considered to be lying through the green? If so, the player would be entitled to drop the ball behind the bunker if he deems it unplayable.

A. No. An embedded ball is considered to be lying in the part of the course where it entered the ground.

Regards,

John

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I can assure you that is the rule. Free drop directly above. ( no penalty )

Which Rule are you talking about?

25-2 . Embedded Ball

A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area through the green ........

The Decision tells us the ball is not lying through the green.

I think you may be getting confused with

25-1b/25

Ball Enters Burrowing Animal Hole in Bunker and Is Found Underneath Putting Green

Q. A ball enters a burrowing animal hole in a greenside bunker and is found underneath the putting green. As the ball is not in the bunker or on the putting green, is relief taken in accordance with Rule 25-1b(i) , i.e., through the green?

A. Yes. The player would drop the ball without penalty on a part of the course through the green within one club-length of the nearest point to its position in the burrowing animal hole that avoids interference from the condition and is not in a hazard, not on a putting green and not nearer the hole.

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The critical questions here are:

Is the ball embedded?

If so, where did it enter the ground?

One problem with the OP's description is that I don't know  in what direction the ball entered the ground nor at what point in the bunker.  The only way I can see a ball from a long shot embedding in  the ground outside the bunker and ending up with part of it showing through the face of the bunker,  is if the ball hit the ground just short of the front edge of the bunker.  I hope the OP can clarify.

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Had a situation in a bunker today that had me and my playing partners scratching our heads about how to proceed. On a long approach to a par 5 hole, my ball embedded almost completely in and under the four-inch high grass lip of the green side bunker. Nasty break.

One of my buddies suggested I'd got lucky and was entitled to free relief under rule 25-2. We then had a debate about whether the bunker face was a "closely-mown area" (it was in the fairway/fringe and the area up to the vertical lip was cut short) and whether it mattered that the ball had punched through the grass to reach the sand below. Not being certain one way or another, I took an unplayable penalty.

Anyway, thinking about it now I'm still not sure. Decision 25-2/5 says faces of bunkers are not considered closely mown areas "unless they are cut to fairway height or less", but that's not particularly helpful when you're comparing a vertical, string trimmed face with a horizontal, mown sward. Which has less "height"? Which direction are the grass plants assumed to be growing in?

Then there's the question of where the ball is actually embedded. Decision 13-4 says an embedded ball "is considered to be lying in the part of the course where it entered the ground. In this case, the ball had clearly transited through the bottom of the grass lip in order to embed itself in the sand underneath. It was still touching the underside of the grass, but the majority of its circumference was in the sand.

Would welcome the opinions of the rules gurus for future reference.

Ball not "through the green." Ball is in the bunker.

Bunker

A “ bunker ’’ is a hazard consisting of a prepared area of ground, often a hollow, from which turf or soil has been removed and replaced with sand or the like.

Grass-covered ground bordering or within a bunker , including a stacked turf face (whether grass-covered or earthen), is not part of the bunker . A wall or lip of the bunker not covered with grass is part of the bunker . The margin of a bunker extends vertically downwards, but not upwards.

A ball is in a bunker when it lies in or any part of it touches the bunker .

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The thread was resurrected after almost 4 years  so I should probably have just left it alone.  Reading the 4th paragraph from the OP's description I think it's pretty clear that the ball embedded via the bunker side.  I've read numerous discussions, seen pictures,  (like a lot of us have) about balls embedding below the lip and whether or not they are in roots, grass, closely mown, sand, is the local rule in effect, etc..etc.

The only point I was trying to make is if the ball embeds, and it is determined that the place it embedded is indeed the bunker, the rules deem it to be lying in the bunker, no matter how far it embeds into the ground. Consequently, no free relief.

Regards,

John

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Of course you can take an unplayable under 28 b or c and drop in the bunker OR depending upon what is the better shot, take stroke and distance. You're basically screwed.

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Sounds like bunker to me. I'd try to hack it out before taking an unplayable.

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Note: This thread is 3195 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

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