Martin Ayers: The Most Powerful Move in Golf

[bunkerputt]

What is it?  I can't even get a feel for what this guy is talking about from his description, which makes me think it's hogwash designed to separate fools from their money.  At best guess, it looks like a Bobby Jones style limp-wrist takeaway with a whip-cracking motion on the downswing.  Could someone who's in the know tell me what this?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

What is it?  I can't even get a feel for what this guy is talking about from his description, which makes me think it's hogwash designed to separate fools from their money.  At best guess, it looks like a Bobby Jones style limp-wrist takeaway with a whip-cracking motion on the downswing.  Could someone who's in the know tell me what this?

It's a method whereby you "load" all of your arm muscles on the backswing and then retain that loading until you can retain it no longer. At that point the power you've loaded up gets thrown at the ball and you get a much more powerful swing than normal.

I have mixed opinions about it. I do believe that when applied to an already sound golf swing it'll add a LOT more power, however my golf swing is far from sound so I had issues:

1. I had a hard time getting my head around the process as my limbs tend to do exactly what my thoughts are telling them to do rather than being able to apply the thoughts/feeling to my conventional swing (I found that my takeaway started the clubhead off going straight up in front of me to begin with and then looping around the top of my head into a downswing!)
2. After much trial and error with when to start the thought process I eventually managed to get the club head going straight back on the takeaway but try as I might I couldn't get my normal "inward" takeaway.
3. My right hand started twisting around the back of the grip during the backswing and the only solution I found was to grip harder and swap to the interlocking grip to stop the sliding.
4. My downswing was just a big old messy out-to-in swing path, resulting in nasty (but powerful) slices.

I decided at that point that rather than try to apply it to an already poor swing mechanic I was better off going with my regular swing and perfecting that before trying to add power to it.

I still believe it would add a lot of power to a sound swing though and I have every intention of trying it again at some point!

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

...

It's a method whereby you "load" all of your arm muscles on the backswing and then retain that loading until you can retain it no longer. At that point the power you've loaded up gets thrown at the ball and you get a much more powerful swing than normal.

...

Thanks for your post.  Are you being facetious here, or is this actually an explanation?  I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that it only adds to the confusion Martin Ayers started...  What does "load all of the arm muscles" mean?  Does it just mean use your arms to generate speed?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Thanks for your post.  Are you being facetious here, or is this actually an explanation?  I'm not trying to be snarky, it's just that it only adds to the confusion Martin Ayers started...  What does "load all of the arm muscles" mean?  Does it just mean use your arms to generate speed?

Nope, I'm not being facetious at all, it's just that the problem with telling you specifically everything involved and the sequence in which all of the arm muscles are loaded is that you would then no longer have to purchase the video to apply it which kind of defeats the purpose of selling it to begin with.

Fingers crossed other will also give you their unbiased reviews and you'll be able to get a better idea on whether it's worth the investment.

[johnthejoiner]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

What is it?  I can't even get a feel for what this guy is talking about from his description, which makes me think it's hogwash designed to separate fools from their money.  At best guess, it looks like a Bobby Jones style limp-wrist takeaway with a whip-cracking motion on the downswing.  Could someone who's in the know tell me what this?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Nope.

I believe this video is showing the non-cocking of the wrist on the backswing and then 'float' cocking of the wrist as the downswing starts which is most definitely not what Mr Ayers is prescribing.

[bunkerputt]

That's OK.  I avoided Ideal Feet and I can avoid this guy too.

[bunkerputt]

At best guess, it looks like a mish-mash of concepts from pre-torque stuff to two-plane looping with float-loading.  The swing he makes on the drills is a powerful one.  It's a powerful one because he float-loads through his tempo and swing path with a pretty decent swing and an athletic guy.  We already knew this was powerful......

I'm going to tell you a secret.  It's about a friend of mine named Bill.  Bill was a 15 handicap and was always looking for the latest golf gimmick to take his game to the next level.  He tried everything on the market, until one day, he stumbled upon the key to the golf swing. This one thing that he did suddenly straightened out his drives and added 50 yards! He dropped his handicap from a 15 to a +2.0 in just one month. The secret involves a powerful new concept called wrenching .  "Once I started wrenching my drives, everyone wanted to know my secret."  Now, you too can own the e-book that has revolutionized the game of golf overnight for millions of people in the know.  Don't be left in the dark, send $14.95 to bunkerputt and you too can own the source of this great wealth of knowledge.  Here are just a few snippets from the e-book:

"You must lash out with every limb, like the octopus who plays the drums." p. 134

"When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack." p. 135

But wait!  There's more!  Not only do you get the key to the golf swing. You also get the secret to putting and the short game as well!  Again, send $14.95 to bunkerputt for the e-book.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

That's OK.  I avoided Ideal Feet and I can avoid this guy too.

Defnitely fair enough. I'm not trying to persuade you either way but I want you to have as much info as is freely available so I'd also take a look at his section of the SiTD forum. There are a lot of posts on there, some of which are people (like me) having trouble using his methods and others who have had great success - http://www.secretinthedirt.com/index.php/forum/208-martin-ayers-forums

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

He dropped his handicap from a 15 to a +2.0 in just one month.

Man, it's funny to see claims like that by people trying to sell their method (I know you're not, but it's amazing how often one sees these in real marketing materials!).     Given how a handicap is calculated, I don't think this is possible even if the player actually did see miraculous improvement.

[Phil McGleno]

I think it's hogwash. He says in the stupid video "you won't actually be able to see it in my swing, but I feel it and it's there."

I call BS on that. Total BS.

Didn't we have this thread already? Can someone merge them?

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/44523/martin-ayers

[MiniBlueDragon]

I think it's hogwash. He says in the stupid video "you won't actually be able to see it in my swing, but I feel it and it's there."

I call BS on that. Total BS.

Didn't we have this thread already? Can someone merge them?

http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/44523/martin-ayers

The thing is, some people feel like they're turn their back leg clockwise against the ground to create extra resistance on the backswing but you won't see it., some people feel like they're leaning forward on the backswing when in fact they're staying centred and I'm sure there are a load of other 'feelings' that people have during a swing that don't translate to something that can be seen on a video. I've lost count of the number of videos where "instructors" say things like, "the feeling you want is..." or "the feeling here is..." In any event I'm done arguing the point as I've noticed I'm starting to sound like a crazed fan which was not my intention; I only wanted to share my own experience of the DVD which was that I found it hasn't helped my swing yet. ;)

[bunkerputt]

Are Rickie Fowler and John Senden good examples of this move on tour?  I looked at a few Martinez videos and that kind of John Senden "feel", where the cup in the right wrist increases slightly on the takeaway with a lot of downcocking on the downswing, is what I have when I need extra distance.  I can hit an 8-iron 180 with this kind of motion and a PW 160, as useless as that is when you can just take two extra clubs and swing easier.  It basically feels like gravity is pulling my arms down to start the swing and I'm "whipping" my arms with my body through impact.  I know I can hit it 20 yards further like this, so I do that in the very rare case I need a little more distance or just want to impress people.  The other thing it feels like is the clubface staying square to the target longer in the takeaway.  Since it's square at the top, which really feels shut to me, you can just take it straight down to the ball and completely murder it without having to slow down to shut it on the downswing.  Is that what's going on here?  Because if it is, I figured it out on my own...  (Not really.  Trying to implement ideas from a lesson efficiently along with watching some Shawn Clement videos on youtube sort-of pointed my intuition in the right direction.)

[MiniBlueDragon]

One thing that's repeated a LOT in the last thirty minutes of the video is that even though the first hour describes the intent, the motion and the feeling, when viewed at full speed with a golf club, these feelings can't be seen but they're still there. It's similar to my reply above where I mention those people who torgue their right leg into the ground at address; they say they do it but there's no clear evidence of it in their swing. It doesn't really matter how many of Martinez's swings you look at or Steve Elkington's, I don't think it shows.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

One thing that's repeated a LOT in the last thirty minutes of the video is that even though the first hour describes the intent, the motion and the feeling, when viewed at full speed with a golf club, these feelings can't be seen but they're still there. It's similar to my reply above where I mention those people who torgue their right leg into the ground at address; they say they do it but there's no clear evidence of it in their swing. It doesn't really matter how many of Martinez's swings you look at or Steve Elkington's, I don't think it shows.

I'll be honest: I don't like it. You can't teach a "feeling" to people, and both he and Elk demonstrate it differently. The feeling looks nothing at all like what actually happens in a golf swing.

Even if the "move" showed up in the golf swing, the way you'd feel it might be different for a lot of people.

My disclaimer: I haven't watched the entire video. Dave has, and he told me it wasn't worth my time to watch it... and he's not often wrong (sometimes, though... :-D).

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by iacas

I'll be honest: I don't like it. You can't teach a "feeling" to people, and both he and Elk demonstrate it differently. The feeling looks nothing at all like what actually happens in a golf swing.

Even if the "move" showed up in the golf swing, the way you'd feel it might be different for a lot of people.

My disclaimer: I haven't watched the entire video. Dave has, and he told me it wasn't worth my time to watch it... and he's not often wrong (sometimes, though... :-D).

My feelings on it are mixed to be honest. I tried it for a short while and my body unfortunately (fortunately?) does precisely what I want it to the majority of the time so when applying the motions it was lifting the club head directly up in front of me and then behind as you see with a hammer thrower. I did start to lower the amount of feeling I was getting and try applying it to my natural swing but I get bored quickly and didn't see results so I dumped it. My swing mechanics have improved of late though so it may be worth re-investigating for me to squeeze some extra yardage.

I do understand that feeling can't be taught but it can be described in many different ways and one of the ways it's described will often "click" for someone studying it. Take for instance the S&T; "crush a can" move; when that was described to me I took it as your heel resting on a can with knee bent and then straightening that knee to crush it instead of leaning on the ball of that foot. I've also heard it described as "knee down" when in reality to me it feels like "left knee flexing over left foot"

Elk and Martin's demonstrations are not exactly the same as they don't have the same body makeup or interpretation of the feeling. The feeling is based on where you feel it's correct to have the club to be able to "smash it" rather than set positions so it's little wonder they're not exactly the same.

At the end of the day I think as with everything to do with the golf swing some people will gain from something that others won't and vice versa.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by johnthejoiner

Loved that music.  I felt like I was doing a Gran Turismo time trial.

Brandon

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

At the end of the day I think as with everything to do with the golf swing some people will gain from something that others won't and vice versa.

That's the point, though. Everyone should be able to benefit from good instruction.

It's tough to communicate "feels." You gave an example of "crush a can," and it's a good example. It was also one small piece of an entire article, and it was free or the price of a magazine only... If your entire film for which you charge $x is about one feeling you're not doing your job as an instructor. A free video on YouTube that may or may not work for people because it has one feeling? Sure, go for it. A video you charge people for despite the fact that the feeling may or may not "click" with them? I don't like that. At the very least, explain the actual mechanics so that people who don't "click" with the feel can devise their own feels.