Martin Ayers: The Most Powerful Move in Golf

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

At the end of the day I think as with everything to do with the golf swing some people will gain from something that others won't and vice versa.

That's the point, though. Everyone should be able to benefit from good instruction.

It's tough to communicate "feels." You gave an example of "crush a can," and it's a good example. It was also one small piece of an entire article, and it was free or the price of a magazine only... If your entire film for which you charge $x is about one feeling you're not doing your job as an instructor. A free video on YouTube that may or may not work for people because it has one feeling? Sure, go for it. A video you charge people for despite the fact that the feeling may or may not "click" with them? I don't like that. At the very least, explain the actual mechanics so that people who don't "click" with the feel can devise their own feels.

Absolutely agree. Good instruction is a must for getting really good at golf. I don't think this is sold as instruction on how to hit a ball well, how to swing a club, grip, posture etc; it's just a suggestion on how to get more power from your swing. Granted you 'could' just take it as a stand along swing instruction but to me it's not that. I can see the beef with what you see as bad instruction but if it helps someone, is it really bad instruction? :) I've just re-read this thread and I have no idea why I'm defending something that thus far hasn't worked for me. Lol

[bunkerputt]

I think Erik hit the nail pretty much on the head.  Instruction should work for nearly every healthy individual with no serious limitations in range of motion.  Describing "feels" is wishy-washiness, may work for some, might not work for others, when he could just simply explain which muscles to move where and at what times.

Now, if I cared more about myself than my students on the other hand....

[MiniBlueDragon]

Erm... He explains the feeling you should have in your right arm during the swing to create extra power and then explains how to create that feeling in your arm using a step by step process. To me there's nothing wishy washy about it other than it being a bit of an "alien" feeling to begin with. You have the ability to apply the feeling to a normal swing or to use it in it's entirety to "be" a swing as long as you're not fussed about the swing's mechanics and are happy with a stock fade shot due to the angle of attack (which I'm not)

I played a relaxed 9 hole par 3 on Saturday and decided to apply the feeling to my normal swing to see what it did. I went from my normal nice baby draws that land on the green or within a few feet of it:

7i - 150 and other clubs ~10 yards above/below

to hitting straight shots, baby draws, fades in equal measure randomly, landing between being on the green to up to 15ft off the green but on average my 8i was overshooting the 150 greens by about 5-10 yards and other clubs were ~10 yard above/below

To me it gave a LOT more power but at the expense of accuracy. The decision is then to keep applying it and try to work on the accuracy or to dump it and go back to accurate but not powerful.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Erm... He explains the feeling you should have in your right arm during the swing to create extra power and then explains how to create that feeling in your arm using a step by step process.

Errr....  Yeah.  That's called teaching by feel.  Isn't that what we were talking about?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Errr....  Yeah.  That's called teaching by feel.  Isn't that what we were talking about?

I'm just confused now. lol

I guess if there were multiple resulting feelings from a move there could be confusion, e.g. if I said "after impact you should feel like the club head is pulling you forward" I'd agree as there are lots of ways that could be misinterpreted or people could think they're getting the correct feeling when in fact it's an incorrect one.

If though I said, "extend (as opposed to flex) your left hand backward at the wrist until it won't go back any more. You should feel the muscle on the back of your forearm tighten" there's little room for an incorrect diagnosis yet the description is still one of feel based on a move. By describing several moves in sequence and the resulting feel from each being added in my mind there's little room for an incorrect diagnosis either. :)

[twittek]

power comes from opposing forces. I've never seen the real videos, but Elk talks about a twirl. i don't think he's describing a tornado, but tornadoes are formed by cold air and hot air trying to get around each other. same thing with an exercise band; two hands pulling in opposite directions to create tension, you let go with one hand and it snaps back. the golf swing works the same way. A lot of instructors try to tell you the swing should be effortless and fluid and tension free...that's crap. Could you bench press 200 lbs like that? nope. Your muscles need to be activated and stay activated throughout the swing.  your lead hand is applying pressure towards you trail hand and vice versa. When making your back swing, your trail foot needs to be torqued into the ground (the ground is a huge power source) to give your upper body something to swing into and that torque is released before the down swing starts. lower body opposing upper body. now your trail side is swinging INTO your lead side (not with). so its almost as if your lead foot is trying to stop your upper body. at impact your lead shoulder is going up and back while your trail shoulder is going down and forward. at the finish you spine should feel fully stretched. The whole time you should be engaging your core. unfortunately these are things you can't see. it looks like everything is working together, but in reality, its all working against each other.

[Mr. Desmond]

Some of what I see on SITD seems very good This Martin Ayers things -- with the arthritic right wrist thing they're doing - that just does not resonate, and neither does that takeaway move -- that is screwy. And I think it will screw up most people. I'm trying to suck everything I saw of Martin Ayers Powerful Move out of my brain.

[mtsalmela80]

I'm trying to get an idea of what this is about. Whats the secret, tense up all your upper body muscles as you swing the club???

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by mtsalmela80

I'm trying to get an idea of what this is about. Whats the secret, tense up all your upper body muscles as you swing the club???

I think ... it will only screw you up. There is no secret. The more I delve into the secret on SINTD (secret is in the dirt), they talk more about taking back the club in an odd way, rotating the club, putting your hands into some type of secret handshake at the top. It also involved how you take the club to the top. It sounds as if it will frack with all you know.

And then when they show it, they don't do what they're talking about... it must be a feeling they have because apparently they can't explain it.  Elk talks about feeling like you have more mass and not forcing speed -- or something like that.

The only worthwhile reminder I received from what they reveal on SITD or youtube - is don't get your arms or hands active at the top or too soon on the way down; and not forcing speed, but letting momentum build -- that's not a secret.

[bunkerputt]

If you want the closest thing to a secret in the golf swing, just get the hips forward more in the downswing.  Nearly everyone thinks they're doing it, but aren't.  Then they just go on looking for other foolishness like this Ayers stuff presuming that they've got the fundamentals down and need something different to stop struggling.  This guy hits it great.  Does he look like he's focusing on creating all sorts of "opposing" forces or torquing anything around?  It looks like he's trying to push his hips as far out from under his head as possible to me.  That's better advice.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Firstly let me say that I have this video, I understand it and I think it could well work... If you have a repeatable swing and want more power.

Secondly let me say that I personally don't use it as I'm concentrating on getting a repeatable and consistent swing rather than sheer power.

Now on to the main bulk of the post.

Originally Posted by twittek

power comes from opposing forces. I've never seen the real videos...

Then my suggestion would be to either see them and give yourself some factual information to debunk or not create posts which are so far off base it's unreal because you've chosen to take a stab in the dark at what he's talking about.

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtsalmela80

I'm trying to get an idea of what this is about. Whats the secret, tense up all your upper body muscles as you swing the club???

I think ... it will only screw you up. There is no secret. The more I delve into the secret on SINTD (secret is in the dirt), they talk more about taking back the club in an odd way, rotating the club, putting your hands into some type of secret handshake at the top. It also involved how you take the club to the top. It sounds as if it will frack with all you know.

And then when they show it, they don't do what they're talking about... it must be a feeling they have because apparently they can't explain it.  Elk talks about feeling like you have more mass and not forcing speed -- or something like that.

We all know that feel is not real. The takeaway move shown is simply to get the "feeling" to start the move off. If you watch Steve or Martin's swing in the video they don't show any visual sign of using the move because it's all feel-related when added to a full swing. Many classic golfers have started off with the very same starting move, albeit that their takeaway was able to be seen visually rather than being described as a 'feeling'.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

If you want the closest thing to a secret in the golf swing, just get the hips forward more in the downswing.  Nearly everyone thinks they're doing it, but aren't.  Then they just go on looking for other foolishness like this Ayers stuff presuming that they've got the fundamentals down and need something different to stop struggling.

I agree completely regarding the ordering of the swing. What's the point in being able to hit it a mile (assuming of course that the move works as described which I myself have yet to witness) if you can't hit it to your target? Fundamentals and commonalities must always come first.

For me, even though I've chosen not to use it I'm not sure on Ayers' swing thoughts. Much of the video makes complete sense and I can seriously see a good application for it in a decent swing when done correctly. For us amateurs though (who the video is unfortunately targeted at) I can't see it working in the majority of cases.

[mtsalmela80]

Did some more research, from what I can see the idea is to move the center of the radius of your swing back a little, and then move it forward through the downswing? I watched the video on youtube of the guy setting up, and then move his hands back, letting the club swing from there.I guess propelling your hands forward through the swing would produce some more power. I guess sliding your hips forward through the swing sort of accomplishes the same thing.

Is that it?

[MiniBlueDragon]

Nope; not in the slightest.

Before I bought it I did exactly as you guys are and took a look at videos and snippets and ever scoured the SiTD forums for hours collating bits of info to figure it out. The closest I got was to find out it's a series of movements and feelings that are applied to a normal swing which basically makes your right arm feel like it's gaining more and more power throughout the backswing and downswing before it absolutely *must* release into the ball.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Nope; not in the slightest.

Before I bought it I did exactly as you guys are and took a look at videos and snippets and ever scoured the SiTD forums for hours collating bits of info to figure it out. The closest I got was to find out it's a series of movements and feelings that are applied to a normal swing which basically makes your right arm feel like it's gaining more and more power throughout the backswing and downswing before it absolutely *must* release into the ball.

I will wait on Martin's "Secret" once I'm more consistent introducing S&T; elements into my swing - I'm thinking enough at the moment. Heck, I thought this "secret" was a way for Elk to have his instructor make more money...

[mtsalmela80]

If its purely a power move, then its not that important to me. Distance is not my problem right now in the least.

This thread is looking more and more like an infomercial. The whole rotating the club face through impact "AJ reveals the secret about golf" was so freely divulged on this forum, not sure what the big secret is here.

[1puttit]

Originally Posted by mtsalmela80

If its purely a power move, then its not that important to me. Distance is not my problem right now in the least.

This thread is looking more and more like an infomercial. The whole rotating the club face through impact "AJ reveals the secret about golf" was so freely divulged on this forum, not sure what the big secret is here.

I have the video and will say it did nothing but screw me up. After watching the video several times and trying it for a few days I can't say I ever came close to mastering "the move" or even really understanding it. If distance is not an issue for you then I wouldn't even bother investigating this any more. The best description I can give is "the move" is mostly about getting your right hand/wrist/arm  in a torqued position at the top of your back swing so that you have to unleash all of that power into the ball on the down swing.

I'd be happy to trade my copy for some other golf instructional video as I have no use for it. Feel free to PM me.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by 1puttit

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtsalmela80

If its purely a power move, then its not that important to me. Distance is not my problem right now in the least.

This thread is looking more and more like an infomercial. The whole rotating the club face through impact "AJ reveals the secret about golf" was so freely divulged on this forum, not sure what the big secret is here.

I have the video and will say it did nothing but screw me up. After watching the video several times and trying it for a few days I can't say I ever came close to mastering "the move" or even really understanding it. If distance is not an issue for you then I wouldn't even bother investigating this any more. The best description I can give is "the move" is mostly about getting your right hand/wrist/arm  in a torqued position at the top of your back swing so that you have to unleash all of that power into the ball on the down swing.

I'd be happy to trade my copy for some other golf instructional video as I have no use for it. Feel free to PM me.

This. If power's not a problem then stick with what you're doing as you're obviously doing something right.

The sole reason I'm not going to divulge anything is because it's not mine to share. If I'd gone to the trouble of creating an eBook/video/system/thing to sell and it got plastered all over the net for free I'd be pretty pissed about it so I'm not doing that to somebody else.

From my perspective I'm simply sharing as much info as I can about it so that others can make a decision on whether they feel it's worth buying or not. Hell, I've even told everyone that I don't use it even though I own it and have tried it so what type of 'infomercial' is that? haha

[mtsalmela80]

the longest par 4s i ever face are maybe a stitch over 400 yards, usually hitting at worst a 7 into the green. i was putting for eagle acouple days ago on a 480 yard par 5. i guess more distance will continue to come as i drop my HCI