slow play vs. bad play; also known as, can you be slower if you are good?

[Tomboys]

IMO, your bud should be applauded for his conscientious behavior.  I would have no problem playing behind him or with him.  In fact, I have a friend that's identical to him and I have no issue whatsoever playing with him.  My pet peeve on the golf course is strictly limited to slow play because of dilly-dallying.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by RayG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradox

the bottom line is that if its a public course and he paid his fees..then he has every right to be out there to play and enjoy himself just like Johnny Scratch does.  If someone is frustrated by this at a PUBLIC course then they must not know what that word means.  I've never came up behind a bad single or a bad group that didn't want us to play through as soon as possible.  They could feel the pressure of someone behind them that is waiting and it was making their games and their enjoyment decline.

As long as you let people through(if possible) then there should never be anyone take issue with how someone else is playing.  I speak from experience when I say that it can be brutally frustrating, sometimes even embarassing when you're in the group with the guy who's hitting 10 shots to reach the green.  But in the end, as long as the overall pace is good...then I'm good.

where's this course where you've never come across a group that DIDN'T want you to play through? As you mentioned, a lot of people "paid the same money" to play and who cares what the group behind (and the group behind them AND the group behind THEM) think. Unfortunately, on a reasonably full public course, too many people follow this practice. Or even if they "feel the pressure", they will purposely slow down just to tick everyone off. On a Private Course, these things can be taken up with review boards, etc... Slow Pokes get publicly outed and matters are taken care of. Public courses need Rangers to nudge folks along- and NOT just tell the whole group, but the offending player to 'pick up the pace'. OR train the Beverage cart girl/guy to recognize situations, call back to the clubhouse and send someone out to fix it.

Richmond, KY...Gibson Bay Golf Course.  Come stop by and play anytime!  Jason Eberle is a great guy who will take good care of ya :)

I may be a bit spoiled because there are two other courses in town where hackers can go and not be bothered PLUS Gibson Bay isn't the most enjoyable course if you can't hit fairly well.  There is ALWAYS gonna be someone who's a prick but I guess lucky for me, I haven't ran into one in 7 years of playing at my home course.

[Paradox]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Is there a way to play through when the slow person is in your group? Maybe we should be able to leave straggler behind? I can see why guys try really hard to have a foursome.

haha, Yes...you undo his cart strap and his clubs will accidentally fall off..just keep driving like you didn't notice!  If he's walking with you...then just throw his clubs in the lake and run :D

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

I guess that is the question.  Given that the player is not doing non-stroke slow things, why does your desire for a fast round trump his desire for a complete round?

As he said when we suggested he pick up, if he picks up, how will he know if he is beating his previous best?  I've seen him go into 18 with a 124 nervous because he could break 130.  Why should his desire matter less than yours?

These are some tough questions but are interesting to consider.

Because his desire impacts everybody else negatively (in that particular set of circumstances).  If his desire to get a personal best did not affect pace of play, that would be fine.  But he needs to pick up under some circumstances.  I respect his desire to break 121, but it's not so significant that everybody should have to wait on him.  He paid his money and deserves to play, but that does not mean he is entitled to every single stroke.

And it's nice that he waves people through, however this is not the be-all, end-all of course etiquette.  If you take it to the extreme, does it make it okay to play out every hole if it means at the end of the day he's waved 5-6 groups through?  Would all of his playing partners be okay with that?

Lastly, better players can only take longer insofar as it allows them to hit a good shot and STILL be within the pace of play.  If they're taking so long they're slowing down pace of play, they need to change something.

Brandon

[mdl]

I'm honestly torn on this one.  I strongly sympathize with the argument that he's observing good etiquette generally, he paid his greens fees, enjoys playing, and has the right to play his game.

I also must admit that I get annoyed having someone THAT bad in my group.  It messes with my rhythm to have to walk, put the bag down, wait, and do it again 3+ times before I can get to my drive and think about my approach.  And that slows down the whole group too.  If everyone's driving the ball standard amateur distances, say 200-275 yards, then usually two or three players can approach their ball and think about their next shot as the one furthest from the whole lines up and actually hits.

In the end I guess I'm selfish and I'd he should pick up after maybe 8 shots on a hole, or if he's spray skulling the ball then he should pick his ball up after 3 shots that haven't advanced him more than 150 yards total and drop one 30 yards from the green to get his short game practice in.

I can't imagine how it's that much fun to play that way.  If I'd started that bad I'd have spent a ton of time at the range and on 9 hole par 3 courses before going out praying to break 124 on a full course!

[B of H]

if you don't waste time between shots and break 80 then you'd have to be extremely slow in your routine and shot prep to be a slow player by any means.  The real slow down IMO is hackers and people that waste time between shots, look for too many balls for too long, and like to watch everyone else hit before going to their own ball.

[jamo]

if you don't waste time between shots and break 80 then you'd have to be extremely slow in your routine and shot prep to be a slow player by any means. The real slow down IMO is hackers and people that waste time between shots, look for too many balls for too long, and like to watch everyone else hit before going to their own ball.

I don't think you have to be a hacker to fulfill that description.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by bplewis24

He paid his money and deserves to play, but that does not mean he is entitled to every single stroke.

Brandon

If he paid his money, he surely is entitled to every single stoke. If I go to a chinese buffet, am I not entitled to all the crab legs I can eat to make me full?

[JoelCochran]

I really empathize with the you and your friend.  My wife recently started playing and her biggest concern is that it will "bother" me playing with her.  I told her what my dad always told me: I don't care how poorly you play as long as you keep up.  She will occasionally pick up once she's seen enough of a hole (usually a 10), but she doesn't waste time over shots and she's been learning etiquette.  We can play 9 in a little over 2 hours so she's doing OK with room for improvement.

If your friend is playing from the forward tees and struggling that much, I would suggest a few lessons and some driving range time in lieu of playing. Not because I don't think he shouldn't be on the course: I think he has every right and more power to him if he can keep coming back in those conditions.  I would suggest this because with all you've told us about his etiquette and habits it sounds like if he could break 120 then this issue would simply solve itself.  In the meantime, some form of stroke control is in order, but at least let him chip and putt every hole.

Just my $.02

[The Recreational Golfer]

This is where etiquette comes in. Good manners are built around considering the affect of what we do on other people. Someone whose lack of skills is preventing their group from completing the round in a reasonable amount of time needs to understand he or she has to make concessions.

The groups behind are not the issue. They can always play through. It's the players in the same group who are being inconvenienced, who are too polite to just play on and leave Slow Player behind. They paid $80, too, and not for this.

[the19thhole]

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

This is where etiquette comes in. Good manners are built around considering the affect of what we do on other people. Someone whose lack of skills is preventing their group from completing the round in a reasonable amount of time needs to understand he or she has to make concessions.

The groups behind are not the issue. They can always play through. It's the players in the same group who are being inconvenienced, who are too polite to just play on and leave Slow Player behind. They paid $80, too, and not for this.

Etiquette cuts both ways and it sounds like you have none. So you would honestly just dump a player in your group because he was slowing you down. I take it you were just a natural to the game and have never shot a high score or slowed anyone up. Give the guy a break he's learning the game. I agree he should limit his strokes. The stableford idea is how I played when starting out. My short game was learned on the practice area.

And can we all stop calling new players hackers there is a difference. I do find golf snobbery really annoying, probably more so than anything else do with the game. In fact I'd rather play 6hrs with somoeone trying to beat his best of 121 than a 1 hole with a golf snob. The reason for declining numbers playing or taking up the game is because golf snobs frighten new people away. Just beacuse they have a low handicap (actually I find mid handicap players more annoying) doesn't give them any more rights than anyone else. I'm just glad I don't play with anyone on here that is trashing the new guys effort beacuse he happens to be a bit slow.

Sorry if I've vented a bit too much - but golf snobs are a bore.

[The Recreational Golfer]

the19thhole:

Please point out in my post where I said I would dump a player in my group because he was slowing you down. I can't see it.

You're right, etiquette and good manners are two-way streets. But if one player is causing the other three to wait and wait and wait, and groups behind are playing through, something has to give. It seems to me that Slow Player would have to start making a few concessions to the other golfers he or she is playing with. It's pretty clear that that's what I was saying.

Another thing you're right about is that I have never slowed anyone down. If I'm making a hash out of the hole, I pick up.

Finally, let's just discuss the topic. Saying I have no etiquette and calling me a golf snob, etc., could be interpreted as getting personal. I'm not sure why you would take your response in that direction. You don't know me and have no basis for saying those things. If we played together, you would probably enjoy yourself.

If you're venting, as you say, is there an experience in your golfing past that makes this topic a sensitive one for you, and for which I'm taking the heat?

[the19thhole]

Originally Posted by The Recreational Golfer

This is where etiquette comes in. Good manners are built around considering the affect of what we do on other people. Someone whose lack of skills is preventing their group from completing the round in a reasonable amount of time needs to understand he or she has to make concessions.

The groups behind are not the issue. They can always play through. It's the players in the same group who are being inconvenienced, who are too polite to just play on and leave Slow Player behind. They paid $80, too, and not for this.

I took from this quote you were stating what you would do. If this is not the case then I apologise.

Sorry about you feeling that I was directing the golf snob thing to you personally. This was not the case, but a general swipe at people who call all new golfers hackers. I agree with you slow players have to make concessions, but we have to as well to get more new people take the game up. We shouldn't make them feel unwelcome.

I agree we probably would have fun if we played a round or 2 as I have found your posts in the past good reading and informative.

Again sorry if I offended.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

This is where etiquette comes in. Good manners are built around considering the affect of what we do on other people.

Right, but thats the whole point.  Your desire to play faster is affecting his ability to play out his round.  Thats why its an interesting question. Again, why are you considering the other player's right to play faster rather than my playing partners right to play every stroke he paid for?  Don't they agree to accept things like that when they book a round at a public course?

The players with him are not an issue.  We know how slow he is and agree.  Its not a paired with a stranger situation.  The issue is why does certain players desire to go faster trump another players desire to play a full round, especially on a public course?

[og512]

I've been in his shoes and my thought process was exactly the same as his...

* Its a public course and my money is just as good as the next guy.

* I always ride so that I can get to my errant shot as quick as possible.

* I always let faster groups play through.

* I always play ready golf.

I felt obligated to play as fast as possible because of my bad play which probably contributed to the bad but I tried to aware of those playing with me and those behind me.

I did invest time and money in lessons and getting better... Nowadays, I often find myself waiting on the tee box for guys who spend more time admiring themselves and each rather golfing

[zeg]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

The players with him are not an issue.  We know how slow he is and agree.  Its not a paired with a stranger situation.  The issue is why does certain players desire to go faster trump another players desire to play a full round, especially on a public course?

Because the basic rule most places is that golfers should keep up with the group ahead of them.  While I think (and frequently argue) that this isn't strictly necessary, since sometimes you'll get some absurdly fast players ahead of some average-speed players, it's generally a pretty good rule of thumb if there's not a posted pace.

Basically, if the entire course is playing significantly faster than your pace, you are creating a problem.

And it does go both ways.  A player who's frustrated because you aren't playing 18 holes in 3 hours is out of line, but in general so is a player who can't finish 18 in under 5 on an open course.

That's really not even a remotely stringent requirement and doesn't require any heroics.  I've shot as high as a 134 in a group of three without getting anywhere near 5 hours, probably close to 4 although I don't specifically remember, and I don't play particularly fast.  I also don't take 5 minutes looking for every lost ball or spend an eternity making a perfect read for a shot that's probably going to miss my target by 20 yards or more.  It did take a while to learn to play efficiently, and that's really all we're asking.

[bcgolf]

Personal Observation :  Most of the time I witnessed people complaining about others being too slow is when they themselve are playing badly and need a scapegoat to put the blame on.  After all, it is not their own fault they are playing bad right, it's the slow player in front of them that's to blame  ;-)

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by shades9323

If he paid his money, he surely is entitled to every single stoke. If I go to a chinese buffet, am I not entitled to all the crab legs I can eat to make me full?

Yes, it's your right to eat them all, then keep eating them as fast as they're replenished. Keep the others waiting for a chance to get one too - you paid your money!! I assumed that's where you were going with that because any other interpretation that could be applied to the OP's scenario is flawed.