Can we all finally agree that Tiger is done?

[iacas]

Short answer: No.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by iacas

Short answer: No.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by nuck81

Better Question:  Can this forum go one full week without someone starting a Tiger will never win/Tiger Sucks thread?

This one is probably a no as well.

[ggolokin]

how can you say something like that after only two tournaments?

it's a bit premmature to say he's completely done.

that being said, it would suprise me if he wins a major next year (although i hope he does)

[clubchamp]

He's not done but I don't think he ever returns to what he was earlier in his career. I think he will definitely win again and possibly win another major but I think his knee forces him to retire earlier than expected.

[The Tin Man]

NO!   A Rocky Balboa like comeback would make things more interesting.

[FowlPlay]

If Tiger seemed less upset than he did, yeah, I would agree. But you could tell he wasn't ready to just "give up" the rest of the majors of his career. We don't know if he'll win (I think he will), but I'd at least expect to see him up there even in the mix of the Keegan Bradleys, Rory McIlroys, and Rickie Fowlers (don't hate, I didn't claim he was already a top 5 player).

[jshots]

What do you think of this theory... Tiger is currently better than he has ever been and is just playing up some drama of him sucking in order to mount the ultimate come back of all time and to restore glory to his name and to get more people to watch golf again.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by jshots

What do you think of this theory... Tiger is currently better than he has ever been and is just playing up some drama of him sucking in order to mount the ultimate come back of all time and to restore glory to his name and to get more people to watch golf again.

I think that you are bonkers!

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by jshots

What do you think of this theory... Tiger is currently better than he has ever been and is just playing up some drama of him sucking in order to mount the ultimate come back of all time and to restore glory to his name and to get more people to watch golf again.

The Tiger hustle?

To be honest it's a bit bizarre to me. Tiger's showing glimpses of good play inbetween a lot of crap. He's doing happy interviews where he's saying things like 'I'm not used to curving the ball less' (paraphrased) but he then still continues trying to play his old game with his new swing. He also mentioned that when he birdied the first few holes he was 'playing mechanically' but then after he birdied them he changed to 'playing by feel' but then spent 15 holes continuing to try and play 'by feel' even though it clearly wasn't as good as when he was 'mechanical'

I can't pretend to be in Tiger's mind but to me if you're playing well you continue to play as you're playing, not suddenly think "Ooh I'm doing great, let me change that" and likewise if you play several tee shots that aren't curving as much, you adjust your aim to compensate, not continue to hit it in the trees.

As I said; very bizarre!

In my mind he's at a mid-way point in his swing where he's moved toward a Stack & Foley swing but then has regressions back to his old ways and he can't find a happy middle ground. His choice will be to either take on the entire ethos of the linguist extraordinaire and keep plodding along until it's normal for him or he'll have to undo months of new teaching to start again with a new swing. Again.

[Mr. Desmond]

Answer: NO.

Why do people always want a quick and easy answer?

Clue: This is life. There are no quick and easy answers, in your personal life, and in Tiger's life.

Tiger is going through a radical swing change and hasn't practiced much - normally a divorce takes 2 years to recover, add another year for his bizarre behavior, and add another 2 years for the swing change and injuries... add in the fact that he spends (or says he does) more time with his children, and you have less practice time.

Since he's doing this at the same time -- I'd say the time frame to evaluate is the end of next year - 2012.

[lumpuckeroo]

I think that is to soon to completely write him off.  As I have written in this forum previously, I think his window of opportunity is shrinking quickly to win majors but I still think he has the tools to win again, I don't think anyone, including Tiger, knows just how well his knee with hold up and that seems to be the key to him being able to come back close to his old form.  I can't see him making it back to his from of 2000, but that was surreal, if he just plays good, he is better than most of the players on tour.

[jake8822]

i think you can put his personal life aside. It's been his knee. Do you think Michael Jordan could have been the player he was if he wasn't able to spend the time in the gym. Tiger hasn't been able to practice the way he used to because of the knee and achilles. It's easy for all of us to sit back and say this or that. But when it's all said and done if he retired right now he would still be one of the top five players to ever play the game. I wish he would have stayed out this whole year so he could come back healthy, with all the swing changes squared away. Every time he changed his swing we all are amazed by the results. It is just going to take a little time to get everything going. Everyone wants things done yesterday, sometimes it just takes a minute.

[majorchamp]

I really have no clue about Tiger anymore. What does frustrate me is the amount of negatively that seems to come from the media and golf community when you have a "no-name" player in the hunt at a big tournament. It's almost like an assumption they will choke and fall apart.

I think we are in a new era of golf where the players are so much better then they were 10 years ago, that no-namers have much more confidence, strength, and focus when in the hunt they are able to pull off the unthinkable. Whether its YE-Yang, Bradley, or whomever.

I know these players don't earn the networks much money compared to the Phils, Tigers, or what not..but damnit if they aren't solid friggin players. I mean the shots I see the no-namers hit in these tournaments are friggin darts at the flags constantly, incredible putting and more. Instead we see pros like Tiger and such giving themselves 25 footers for birdies all day.

Here is what I have never understood about PGA Tour players. These guys, on the range, can be as consistent as can be. They can hit shots at any flat on the range, at any target, and do it over and over again. Yet when they get on the course, they make decisions like bailing out to the right or left, leaving themselves easy 2 putts from 45 feet, and such. I sit there watching on television like "Seriously...you guys are 160 yards away...I don't care if that flag is on the left side of the green..don't you have the pure talent and ability to aim 5 yards right and keep it on line?

[majorchamp]

Also I know the forum members here tend to fall on the side of the "stack and tilt" argument, but I really don't think the stack and tilt swing, as its marketing or even how Sean Foley is doing it is going to take Tiger to where he used to be, period. I think those principles as a package are great for taking a decent player to a good  player, but I don't think it will take a good player to a great player or even a super star.  Tiger's swing in the Butch era, as flawed as it was by some peoples standards, was by far the most consistent and successful swing we have seen in the last 15 years of watching golf.  I still don't quite understand, watching Tiger's old swing such as this video...."tears up his knee" I am obviously not a medical doctor, I just don't see what he does now (with haney or foley) is different to his knee then what he did under Butch.  Is he not able to swing like he did under Butch's direction with less force? Wasn't it the "power" he was trying to put into his swing and torque that was ripping his knee apart?

I just question whether that "type" of swing is "really" the core issue of his knee problems.

I sent a text message to my father after Tiger's 1st day of the PGA. It was  "Tiger's new book...Sean Foley helped me dominate the Champions Tour" since that is how long it will take for this swing to "click' with Tiger.

Also, can anyone explain to me "why" Foley hasn't fixed Tiger's compression on the downswing problem. His spine angle compressed toward the ball on his downswing and he has done this for hte last several years. I'm not sure if that was a Haney thing or what, but its part of the problem why he blocks his drives all the time. I know Chamblee isn't a favorite on this forum, but he pointed it out in one of the TGC segments and I thought it was a very valid point.

[mlanger]

I think to say he's done is a bit premature. Prove himself all over again? Yes, both on and off the course it seems, but done? Personally I was never a big fan of Tiger, but I do think he'll win again.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by majorchamp

Also I know the forum members here tend to fall on the side of the "stack and tilt" argument, but I really don't think the stack and tilt swing, as its marketing or even how Sean Foley is doing it is going to take Tiger to where he used to be, period. I think those principles as a package are great for taking a decent player to a good player, but I don't think it will take a good player to a great player or even a super star.

And that's based on... what? S&T; is simply a one-plane swing with a centered pivot and a system of measurements and principles to act as guides.

Originally Posted by majorchamp

Tiger's swing in the Butch era, as flawed as it was by some peoples standards, was by far the most consistent and successful swing we have seen in the last 15 years of watching golf.

Tiger's swing in the "Butch era" was great because of the guy employing it. That's almost the entirety of it. People act as if 2000 was the way it was under Butch Harmon every year. It wasn't.

Originally Posted by majorchamp

I just don't see what he does now (with haney or foley) is different to his knee then what he did under Butch.  Is he not able to swing like he did under Butch's direction with less force? Wasn't it the "power" he was trying to put into his swing and torque that was ripping his knee apart?

The snapping of his left knee is the primary thing he's cited. I can see how - particularly with previous (childhood) injuries and aggravation from running (or outright tearing a tendon or ligament from running) could exacerbate it.

And comparing his range swing to his on-course swing is probably not wise. Tiger's like everyone else, unfortunately - his range swing is smooth, balanced, gentle. Then he gets on the course and starts lashing at it.

Originally Posted by majorchamp

I just question whether that "type" of swing is "really" the core issue of his knee problems.

I think the knee is an excuse. It has some validity, but it's more of an excuse than anything else. Which is fine as far as I'm concerned if it got him away from Haney. Harmon's swing was fine... required a bit more timing than I'd like but he still has the hands flipping over, but it was fine. Haney's, not so much a fan. That he made it work as well as he did is a testament to his skill, IMO.

Originally Posted by majorchamp

Also, can anyone explain to me "why" Foley hasn't fixed Tiger's compression on the downswing problem. His spine angle compressed toward the ball on his downswing and he has done this for hte last several years. I'm not sure if that was a Haney thing or what, but its part of the problem why he blocks his drives all the time. I know Chamblee isn't a favorite on this forum, but he pointed it out in one of the TGC segments and I thought it was a very valid point.

Because Tiger does it, has always done it, and will always do it until he decides to stop doing it. It likely feels powerful to him. He's done it under every instructor he's had. And, like the knee, he does it less on the range. :-P

[majorchamp]

Thanks Erik, those are all valid responses.

[jgreen85]

tiger sweeps the majors next year; you heard it here first. Though I really do think it will happen, I acknowledge that it doesn't cost me anything to state it here, but meh.