Improvement

[mvmac]

[Adam Young]

Iacas/mvmac

Good thread, I thoroughly agree with it. As we have talked about before, where I teach in Austria (there is something in the water here) the average person we get is a 45 handicap (they call it tournierreifer, 54 is the starting handicap and lots of people stay there), their only idea of practice is the 10 balls they steal off the front of the range before a round of golf. Most struggle to even make contact with the ball at all, the average distance for a lady here is about 50 yards in the air with almost all clubs - at best 70 when they flush it (which says a lot about their ability to create speed). On top of this, their patience tolerance is about 5 balls before they decide whether something works or not. even with all they analogies of how to learn something and the stages you have to go through - it is simply lost on them.

I have tried the net thing - it is a step in the right direction certainly. However, there is only so much you can do in one hour with someone, and when they head straight from your lesson and you see them walking onto the first tee, it does make your heart sink a little. What strategies would you suggest for dealing with a situation like this.

P.S. I am lucky enough to spend the second half of the year teaching top level juniors/young adults and mid-low handicap players which is a breath of fresh air, but also comes with it's own challenges.

[JonMA1]

I know this is an old thread, but it is relevant to my practice routine.

Regarding hitting indoors, I did this all winter in my garage. For those of us living up North, the season is too short. I start to get withdrawal symptoms if too much time goes by without swinging. Even if I can't see the ball flight and the mat is nowhere near the same as turf, I can feel it when I make crisp contact and if nothing else, it is probably good for me physically. As far as whether it's good or bad for your game, I don't know - my game still sucks after working on it every free moment over the last several months.

Which leads me to a question. Do you think that anyone in average physical condition should show significant improvement if they receive proper instruction and work very hard? Or is it possible that - even if we have proper swing technique - some of us simply cannot hit the spot we're aiming at on a consistent basis? There are studies that indicate success in sports is more a result from practicing, especially at an early age, than it is about natural ability. But I sometimes have my doubts.

Please don't take this question as me looking for an excuse. The fact is I've only taken 4 lessons and my technique probably isn't correct. Also, for me even a bad day at the golf course is usually very enjoyable. But a little improvement would be nice without having to throw too much money at the problem.

[Golfer20]

This is a sensational post!

[Lihu]

This is a really nice read. Like!

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Lihu said:

This is a really nice read. Like!

Why didn't you actually click the "like" button, then?

[nevets88]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

Why didn't you actually click the "like" button, then?

Clicked. The quote in the original post is from page 12 if anyone was looking as I was curious.

[Jeremie Boop]

@iacas How does a "good swing" not automatically result in a good ball flight? I can understand if you said make better swings and the ball flight will sort itself out, because that sounds more to me that incremental changes are being made until eventually the swing reaches a point where it starts producing the desired results, or at the very least shows signs of the desired results. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around the idea that I made "a good swing" but topped the ball, or shanked it, etc. I understand the premise though, that even though the result was bad, the swing itself may have been much better that it was before. It's most likely just a mental adjustment I need to make that hitting a good shot does not necessarily mean I made a good swing and if I hit a bad shot does not necessarily mean I made a bad swing. This is where I'm starting to think that I'm more likely to benefit from standard in person type lessons where someone outside of myself can give me instant feedback on whether a specific change is resulting in a better swing that just happens to be giving a poor result when it comes to the ball strike and make on the fly adjustments to whatever thought or feel I should be using to achieve the best results.

[iacas]

23 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

@iacas How does a "good swing" not automatically result in a good ball flight?

Because a better swing is "different" to you, so you might still have some old compensations (for the "old" move) or you might just not feel comfortable making that "different" motion.

For example, I steepen the shaft a little bit in transition because my wrists fold back a bit too far and the clubface is shut. When I keep the wrists in a better position, I feel like the clubface is wide open. It's not, but it feels like it is. So I have to train myself to make the "better" swing - keep the wrists proper, shallow it out, swing out a little more) - even if I shank the ball, or fat it, or hit some other horrendous shots while my compensations/timing/sequencing/etc. sort themselves out.

They will. But they might not the first 10 swings. Or 100. Or 10,000.

But it's a better swing.

23 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

It's hard for me to wrap my mind around the idea that I made "a good swing" but topped the ball, or shanked it, etc. I understand the premise though, that even though the result was bad, the swing itself may have been much better that it was before.

You're confusing a good swing with a good result. It's a big part of what probably holds you back from getting better. Like a lot of people. Whether it's because you want "instant results" or because you're trapped in this way of thinking, I don't know. Maybe a bit of both.

23 hours ago, Jeremie Boop said:

It's most likely just a mental adjustment I need to make that hitting a good shot does not necessarily mean I made a good swing and if I hit a bad shot does not necessarily mean I made a bad swing. This is where I'm starting to think that I'm more likely to benefit from standard in person type lessons where someone outside of myself can give me instant feedback on whether a specific change is resulting in a better swing that just happens to be giving a poor result when it comes to the ball strike and make on the fly adjustments to whatever thought or feel I should be using to achieve the best results.

You should or could still try evolvr. It's not a big mindset change, and you'll get drills and "get the point" of them, I think.

[pumaAttack]

10 minutes ago, iacas said:

Because a better swing is "different" to you, so you might still have some old compensations (for the "old" move) or you might just not feel comfortable making that "different" motion.

For example, I steepen the shaft a little bit in transition because my wrists fold back a bit too far and the clubface is shut. When I keep the wrists in a better position, I feel like the clubface is wide open. It's not, but it feels like it is. So I have to train myself to make the "better" swing - keep the wrists proper, shallow it out, swing out a little more) - even if I shank the ball, or fat it, or hit some other horrendous shots while my compensations/timing/sequencing/etc. sort themselves out.

They will. But they might not the first 10 swings. Or 100. Or 10,000.

But it's a better swing.

You're confusing a good swing with a good result. It's a big part of what probably holds you back from getting better. Like a lot of people. Whether it's because you want "instant results" or because you're trapped in this way of thinking, I don't know. Maybe a bit of both.

You should or could still try evolvr. It's not a big mindset change, and you'll get drills and "get the point" of them, I think.

 

Glad to hear my sudden case of the shanks may be a sign of improvement!  The video says my swing looks better, the results say otherwise.  

[mvmac]

20 hours ago, pumaAttack said:

Glad to hear my sudden case of the shanks may be a sign of improvement!  The video says my swing looks better, the results say otherwise.  

The sign of improvement (at first) is that you're changing the picture. If you make a "good swing" and shank it, that's fine because you have to give your brain/body time to adjust. The short term goal is to train yourself to make a better motion, it's a bonus if you hit it better immediately. 

[pumaAttack]

14 minutes ago, mvmac said:

The sign of improvement (at first) is that you're changing the picture. If you make a "good swing" and shank it, that's fine because you have to give your brain/body time to adjust. The short term goal is to train yourself to make a better motion, it's a bonus if you hit it better immediately. 

Yup!

The picture is changing for sure.  I used to be under the impression that a good swing, an improved swing, would automatically create a better result.  Good to know that is not necessarily the case.  

[kpaulhus]

@Jeremie Boop I can attest to Evolvr being more than worth what you pay for. Even if you only use it for a few months it will pay for itself.

[Jeremie Boop]

6 minutes ago, kpaulhus said:

@Jeremie Boop I can attest to Evolvr being more than worth what you pay for. Even if you only use it for a few months it will pay for itself.

I had used evolvr previously already. I'm not saying it wasn't helpful, but I didn't get as much benefit as I would have liked because I had the wrong mindest *IE expecting instant/quick results*. Honestly, I would sign back up, but right now I have a big expense to pay so it will have to wait. In the meantime, I do have Erik's feedback from my swing thread to use until such time as I have the funds to get back into evolvr.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

I had used evolvr previously already. I'm not saying it wasn't helpful, but I didn't get as much benefit as I would have liked because I had the wrong mindest *IE expecting instant/quick results*. Honestly, I would sign back up, but right now I have a big expense to pay so it will have to wait. In the meantime, I do have Erik's feedback from my swing thread to use until such time as I have the funds to get back into evolvr.

I'd still like to see the smallest swing you can make where you don't flip.

From both angles.

[Jeremie Boop]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

I'd still like to see the smallest swing you can make where you don't flip.

From both angles.

I will get that done today. I was planning on going to the range after I sign the lease on my new apartment anyway.

[Jameson]

Great thoughts here!