My Swing (The_Pharaoh)

[The_Pharaoh]

I am seriously struggling with the inside takeaway and OTT move!

[jcollins120]

During practice, take the club back extremely outside and basically at the top of your swing, do the opposite of the over the top. Get the feeling of it so you understand the difference between them. After that, taking the club back straight, to you it will feel outside, will help some. Just get a feeling for the two and really remember to get those hands down on the downswing. Don't let that shoulder go over.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by jcollins120

During practice, take the club back extremely outside and basically at the top of your swing, do the opposite of the over the top. Get the feeling of it so you understand the difference between them. After that, taking the club back straight, to you it will feel outside, will help some. Just get a feeling for the two and really remember to get those hands down on the downswing. Don't let that shoulder go over.

Obviously, there are loads of things I need to work on but the inside takeaway is priority number one. It's difficult for me NOT to come OTT with my backswing. I have tried taking the club way outside, but at some point in the backswing I end up under the plane. I am certain I am side bending my wrists rather than cocking them, but cannot seem to correct it.

Also, is my right shoulder coming out and over? My shoulders look pretty square at impact. Perhaps I need to exaggerate the downwards movement much more...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Obviously, there are loads of things I need to work on but the inside takeaway is priority number one. It's difficult for me NOT to come OTT with my backswing. I have tried taking the club way outside, but at some point in the backswing I end up under the plane. I am certain I am side bending my wrists rather than cocking them, but cannot seem to correct it.

Also, is my right shoulder coming out and over? My shoulders look pretty square at impact. Perhaps I need to exaggerate the downwards movement much more...

I'll get to your wrists momentarily, but on the right shoulder, you really don't have to worry about it. It'll clean up as you do more work.

The backswing is bad. Not gonna lie... I don't think you'd want me to. You absolutely should clean that up. "Outside" isn't a good way of thinking about it. Your hands don't want to go outside, after all.

Anyway, here you go:

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

The backswing is bad. Not gonna lie... I don't think you'd want me to. You absolutely should clean that up. "Outside" isn't a good way of thinking about it. Your hands don't want to go outside, after all.

The backswing is horrific, I know and that's why I started a thread on it over the summer. I just cannot get that opposite feeling when it comes to rotating my forearms. I think I'm afraid to really go extreme when trying something new and try to fix things with minimal effort. I'll give it another go on the range tomorrow.

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

The backswing is horrific, I know and that's why I started a thread on it over the summer. I just cannot get that opposite feeling when it comes to rotating my forearms. I think I'm afraid to really go extreme when trying something new and try to fix things with minimal effort. I'll give it another go on the range tomorrow.

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.

Keep your right palm facing the ball. Or the back of the left hand.

Period. Absolutely do it. It's going to feel at least as extreme as your P2 is. Or more.

[mdl]

Obviously everyone's swing is different, but I've struggled with a similar move to you, where I take the club away with the club head WAY behind the hands at P2 in an effort to have an in-to-out swing path.  Then the first move on the down swing would be rotational with the club head going up instead of staying on plane and then coming down OTT.  I learned to come down in-to-out but never the right way and hit pushes or push fades without changing anything else.  This video posted by uttexas has totally changed my swing:

There were a couple keys for me personally, which I'll share in case some of them make sense for you.  First, realizing that one plane doesn't mean that your downswing is in the exact plane of your left arm and shoulders.  Even "one plane" swings aren't literally all on the same plane for the whole swing.  So taking the club away so that at P2 your shaft is exactly parallel to the target line then getting to a one-plane position at P4 FEELS more like in and then up with the hands, even though the club head is more or less staying on the in-to-out plane you want on the down swing on the back swing as well.

Then on the downswing, just like the video says, your first move has to be pushing the hips forward, not rotating the hips and shoulders as yours is now.  This allows the hands to head down and to the ball from the inside, instead of out and around the ball.  Then only later do you rotate.  I really love the swing thought from the video, which is that rather than thinking about pulling around with your hips or shoulders or hands at any point, just think of squeezing your thighs together once you've slid forward a bit.

Whatever, just watch the video.  It's led to a huge revolution for me, allowing me to start hitting controlled draws for the first time in my career.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by mdl

This video posted by uttexas has totally changed my swing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izp9Jrirk1Q

Then on the downswing, just like the video says, your first move has to be pushing the hips forward, not rotating the hips and shoulders as yours is now.

Many thanks for replying, mdl, I really appreciate your comments. Also, I'd never seen that video before, which is strange as I like that pro and thought I'd seen all his internet videos. As you'll see from my video, the explanation has really helped my backswing but I still can't get the downswing right. In fact, I come so OTT I nearly miss the ball! I put that down to the awkwardness of the backswing. The key for me has been right arm above left arm going back, but I have to feel that going all the way to the top. No rotating left arm above right arm halfway back or I come inside. I never managed another backswing as good as this one. It now looks as if my swing is too upright.

To clarify something, am I really rotating my hips and shoulders too much as I start down? My shoulders look square at impact and I was trying to clear my hips as I have the tendency to early extend. I practiced a drill with my rear end against a chair and had to feel that hip rotation in order to keep my rear end against the chair throughout the swing. I tried moving my hips forward to start the downswing but hit every ball a foot fat!

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Keep your right palm facing the ball. Or the back of the left hand.

Period. Absolutely do it. It's going to feel at least as extreme as your P2 is. Or more.

Great tips here! I have definitely improved my backswing, but still have the tendency to come inside after getting the first foot or two right as I don't know when to stop the drill and rotate the club to the top. Is the idea to feel the back of my left hand facing the ball all the way to the top?

[poser]

I'm really curious since you are a pro and teacher if someone came to with the same problem what would you do to fix them?

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by poser

I'm really curious since you are a pro and teacher if someone came to with the same problem what would you do to fix them?

One thing is helping someone with their swing, quite another is doing something yourself. I am not working with another pro on my swing locally, preferring the advice from those in the know on this site. I've never really worked on my swing and relied more on feel. However, I've started hitting the ball so badly I've had to do something. I've noticed my feel is now way off the correct mechanics of a solid golf swing.

When someone comes to me with an inside takeaway (nothing as severe as mine, I might add), I'm there to guide them and their club so the change is quicker. I am relying on feel and the video camera, but have no one to put me in the positions I need to be in. I've realised with the couple of tips I've been given on this site that you really need to exaggerate something WAY more than you think.

One of my problems is the fact I have been playing golf for 23 years now and am very stuck in my ways. It is much harder for me to make a change than someone that is beginning or has played for only a few years. Big changes are not as difficult for them to make as their swings are not as grooved as mine.

[iacas]

Look, apologies if this is harsh, but stop freaking swinging full speed and expecting to get much of a difference.

Can you get into the proper positions swinging at 10% speed and not even making a downswing? 20%? 30%? Probably around that point is where things start to fall apart.

Your camera angles aren't good, because if they were you'd see that you're not maintaining any pressure points and you're really just lifting the hands up now. The hands never gain the proper amount of depth, you're well across the line, you uncock on the downswing to try desperately to keep the club inside as the hands STAY over the top of the plane, and it's no wonder you have a hard time hitting the ball this way.

The proper backswing takes the hands IN and then UP. The "ascent" is largely due to the right elbow folding. You lack the in as your right elbow stays too far in front of your rib cage and then waits too long to begin flexing because you've already got ascent. Then it over flexes late, the clubhead is heavy so it tips out, and you've got to save it from there.

Seriously, hit balls at 25% speed. If you can't make yourself do a backswing properly you can't figure out what it feels like to you and you have no hope of doing it "at speed."

P.S. Trying the "tough love" approach, also known as the "just frickin' do it already!" approach. Stop farting around, DO the motion at ANY speed that you can do it at, and work from there. You might not hit a ball over 20 yards for the next three weeks and you have to be okay with that.

[mvmac]

And the when you move up to "normal" speed, setting up an alignment stick like this would be good.  But yeah for now, Rickie Fowler the backswing, hands in, club head out

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Look, apologies if this is harsh, but stop freaking swinging full speed and expecting to get much of a difference.

Your camera angles aren't good, because if they were you'd see that you're not maintaining any pressure points and you're really just lifting the hands up now. The hands never gain the proper amount of depth, you're well across the line, you uncock on the downswing to try desperately to keep the club inside as the hands STAY over the top of the plane, and it's no wonder you have a hard time hitting the ball this way.

The proper backswing takes the hands IN and then UP. The "ascent" is largely due to the right elbow folding. You lack the in as your right elbow stays too far in front of your rib cage and then waits too long to begin flexing because you've already got ascent. Then it over flexes late, the clubhead is heavy so it tips out, and you've got to save it from there.

What? Not even a much better?! I thought I did rather well seeing as that was the first ball I hit this morning. You are a tough man to please. Speaking of tough, don't worry about being tough on me, calling it as you see it works best.

I will hit balls at 25% from now on. I will also improve the camera angles by reading the sandtrap.com piece after posting, however I was using the S&T; book guidelines (aim at sternum from stance line). I can't go back any further as there is a wall right behind where I'm hitting.

I am just lifting the arms up, not maintaining any pressure points, poor elbow flex etc. because I am petrified of coming inside. I need to keep working on the Rickie Fowler move.

Btw, what do you mean by "the clubhead is heavy so tips out"?

I need to get out to Erie one of these days...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

What? Not even a much better?! I thought I did rather well seeing as that was the first ball I hit this morning. You are a tough man to please. Speaking of tough, don't worry about being tough on me, calling it as you see it works best.

It's not much better. It's just different! Here:

Combine (and tweak) those pieces and you'll be on the right path.

And as you likely know, I'm being more brief and/or harsher with you because I trust you know it's about the information. Instructors tend to think we can just "do" things. I think Dave has no problems with me telling this story... Basically, Dave and I were prepping for the National Club Pro. He was whining about how hard it is for him to change the picture and said something like "we can get students to do it no problem!" I said in a louder voice "Yeah, because we make them do some bizarre extreme-o feeling or swing at 20% or hit the ball 40 yards so they know what they have to do. Just do that and you'll change the picture too." So he did, and he did, and his swing got better.

Anyway, if your swing sucks, it's not a comment on you as a person, your intelligence, your ability, etc. But sometimes we all need a whap upside the head, and today I'm giving you yours. I've gotten my share of whaps and I'm sure there are more in the future. We're all dumb about this kind of stuff, thinking we can get it right away.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I will hit balls at 25% from now on. I will also improve the camera angles by reading the sandtrap.com piece after posting, however I was using the S&T; book guidelines (aim at sternum from stance line). I can't go back any further as there is a wall right behind where I'm hitting.

That's not your stance line:

Move the camera two feet to the left. If you can't, move it as far left as you can, rotate it to the left, and change your aim line to be farther to the left. Your toes should be pretty straight up and down.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/filming_your_swing - The left line is ideal. Your camera is between the second and third lines.

As you know, be consistent with the camera angles (from here on out) so you can truly compare your swings. If the camera position varies even slightly every time, things will look different when they're the same or vice versa.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I am just lifting the arms up, not maintaining any pressure points, poor elbow flex etc. because I am petrified of coming inside. I need to keep working on the Rickie Fowler move.

Right, I know you are! :-) For a long time, you're going to need to feel some variation of: hands in , clubhead out. Hands in doesn't mean the clubhead goes in. The clubhead going in is a function of your arms rolling over (#3).

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Btw, what do you mean by "the clubhead is heavy so tips out"?

I need to get out to Erie one of these days...

We'd be happy to have you.

The tipping out part? Here:

[The_Pharaoh]

Now I know what you mean about hands IN, clubhead OUT. It's not an easy change after years of rolling my forearms, but at least now I know what I am trying to achieve!

No problem on the whaps upside the head, I'm married and get them all the time! ;-) Good story that about Dave. Too often we don't do ourselves what we are telling our students to do. We all think we are special and believe we should make the required change(s) in a couple of balls!

I've uploaded another video more to check the camera angles. I think this looks better now. I even placed another ball in line with where the original ball should be in order to avoid it drifting. When I don't hit a ball I can do the Fowler move and downswing, but even at 25% I rolled my forearms and still came OTT. This is going to require some work...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I've uploaded another video more to check the camera angles. I think this looks better now. I even placed another ball in line with where the original ball should be in order to avoid it drifting. When I don't hit a ball I can do the Fowler move and downswing, but even at 25% I rolled my forearms and still came OTT. This is going to require some work...

That's better. Hands in a little more but honestly I'm not that worried about that given what you used to do. Bit more extensor action at the top though - you don't want or need the right elbow to overflex.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

Bit more extensor action at the top though - you don't want or need the right elbow to overflex.

Do you mean that I need to keep my right elbow closer to my body throughout the swing? I am comparing my TOTB position with yours and Wi's, and noticing how close you keep your elbows to your side.