Joe Paterno and Penn State

[shades9323]

I don't think Paterno should be fired. Sure, he might have failed a morality test, but he didn't do anything legally wrong. Perhaps there is a morality clause in his contract. His reputation is tarnished. He should have done more.  If Paterno wasn't as iconic as he is, we likely wouldn't be talking about this.

Mike McQueary should be taking a lot more heat. He should have done something to get the kid out of there and went directly to the police, not Paterno.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I'm doing my best to reserve opinions on Joe Paterno at the moment (I failed on this in my first post on this thread), at least until more information comes out, but it's difficult to based on what we know already.

After having just read about 8 pages of the grand jury indictment, this is looking bad for everyone involved.

Really bad.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by shades9323

I don't think Paterno should be fired. Sure, he might have failed a morality test, but he didn't do anything legally wrong.

As of right now, legally he did nothing wrong. He followed the correct chain of command of reporting the incident to his immediate superior, Tim Curley, thus putting the legal responsibility in Curley's hands.

Morally it appears as if he failed miserably. Ugh, what a terrible end to a legendary career, if in fact, this is the end.

Originally Posted by shades9323

If Paterno wasn't as iconic as he is, we likely wouldn't be talking about this.

Correct, I likely wouldn't be talking about this.

[rustyredcab]

Penn State students add to the shame by supporting a coach who let little boys be abused and raped.

Over 1000 students gathered outside Paterno's home last night to show their support for him. Replace serial rapist with serial killer and would over 1000 students be supporting their beloved coach's decision to to simply tell his boss and ignore what he had been told about a murder? The fact that 1000 students showed up to show their support either indicates how much denial there is or indicates how lightly they take "Joe Pa's" allowing the rapes to go on for years. Would a grown man see a murder in progress and do nothing to stop it, wait a day, tell his (and the murderer's) boss, and then drop it? Would that boss simply tell his boss and remain friends with the murderer and not demand that something be done beyond a promise from the murderer to never do it again? Would the 1000 students be a lynch mob instead of supporters if the coach had let a man murder children without telling the police? Is it all so different because the crime was sodomy of a 10-year old boy instead of murder?

This is just another reason PSU needs to take a stand (albeit over 20 years too late) and say that doing nothing to stop rape is not OK simply because doing nothing may protect the football program. The time for waiting and doing nothing is over. Every hour that the trusties wait for their meeting is another hour the shame deepens.

Fire them all now.

[shades9323]

Paterno didn't "let" little boys be abused and raped. He didn't hand them over to Sandusky. He didn't know and do NOTHING about it. You make it sound as if Paterno is an accomplice. Should he have done more? Absolutely. But to burn him at the stake as you are is insane.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Penn State students add to the shame by supporting a coach who let little boys be abused and raped.

Over 1000 students gathered outside Paterno's home last night to show their support for him. Replace serial rapist with serial killer and would over 1000 students be supporting their beloved coach's decision to to simply tell his boss and ignore what he had been told about a murder? The fact that 1000 students showed up to show their support either indicates how much denial there is or indicates how lightly they take "Joe Pa's" allowing the rapes to go on for years. Would a grown man see a murder in progress and do nothing to stop it, wait a day, tell his (and the murderer's) boss, and then drop it? Would that boss simply tell his boss and remain friends with the murderer and not demand that something be done beyond a promise from the murderer to never do it again? Would the 1000 students be a lynch mob instead of supporters if the coach had let a man murder children without telling the police? Is it all so different because the crime was sodomy of a 10-year old boy instead of murder?

This is just another reason PSU needs to take a stand (albeit over 20 years too late) and say that doing nothing to stop rape is not OK simply because doing nothing may protect the football program. The time for waiting and doing nothing is over. Every hour that the trusties wait for their meeting is another hour the shame deepens.

Fire them all now.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by shades9323

Paterno didn't "let" little boys be abused and raped. He didn't hand them over to Sandusky. He didn't know and do NOTHING about it. You make it sound as if Paterno is an accomplice. Should he have done more? Absolutely. But to burn him at the stake as you are is insane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Penn State students add to the shame by supporting a coach who let little boys be abused and raped.

Over 1000 students gathered outside Paterno's home last night to show their support for him. Replace serial rapist with serial killer and would over 1000 students be supporting their beloved coach's decision to to simply tell his boss and ignore what he had been told about a murder? The fact that 1000 students showed up to show their support either indicates how much denial there is or indicates how lightly they take "Joe Pa's" allowing the rapes to go on for years. Would a grown man see a murder in progress and do nothing to stop it, wait a day, tell his (and the murderer's) boss, and then drop it? Would that boss simply tell his boss and remain friends with the murderer and not demand that something be done beyond a promise from the murderer to never do it again? Would the 1000 students be a lynch mob instead of supporters if the coach had let a man murder children without telling the police? Is it all so different because the crime was sodomy of a 10-year old boy instead of murder?

This is just another reason PSU needs to take a stand (albeit over 20 years too late) and say that doing nothing to stop rape is not OK simply because doing nothing may protect the football program. The time for waiting and doing nothing is over. Every hour that the trusties wait for their meeting is another hour the shame deepens.

Fire them all now.

Consider me torn somewhere near the middle between these two view points. That probably doesn't make much sense, but its somehow the conflict I've got going on in my head when I consider everything. I'm pretty relieved I'm not sitting at the table of a Penn State board meeting right now.

I think what disturbs me the most in regards to Joe Paterno is the nine years of silence with authorities outside the university. I just can't explain that.

Originally Posted by shades9323

Mike McQueary should be taking a lot more heat. He should have done something to get the kid out of there and went directly to the police, not Paterno.

I agree. It seems as if (again, speculation, but still speculation based on the indictment) this guy saw this as an opportunity to further his career within the program. I'm not saying he did this, but based on his actions and subsequent promotions -- which I admit could have fully been on merit, I don't know -- this is certainly possible.

If you see something like that with your own eyes, it shocks me he doesn't stop it right then and there, grab that kid and get him the hell out of there.

I just don't think the counter-argument that perhaps he wanted to help protect the university by alerting them first works here, simply because of the obvious fact that a child is being abused right before your eyes.

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by shades9323

Paterno didn't "let" little boys be abused and raped. He didn't hand them over to Sandusky. He didn't know and do NOTHING about it. You make it sound as if Paterno is an accomplice. Should he have done more? Absolutely. But to burn him at the stake as you are is insane.

Tell that to the boys who were sodomized, fondled, orally raped, and otherwise assaulted since 2002.

Enough said by me about this on TST. Time to let this be a place were I think about golf.

[newtogolf]

The problem I have with this and the media is that Paterno is being crucified for doing what was legally required of him but not more.  His legal obligation was to report the incident to his superiors who were legally obligated to contact the police.  The PSU admin and AD had legal obligations to contact the police and follow up not Paterno.

I don't hear the media going after the HS wrestling coach or admininstration Sandusky volunteered at, Penn States AD, the PSU board, the janitors, Sandusky's wife (who witnessed numerous sleepovers) or McQueary who actually witnessed the alleged rape and did nothing until the next day.

I'm not saying Paterno shouldn't have done more, but there are a number of other people that had to know what Sandusky was doing yet the witch hunt is focused solely on Paterno.

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Tell that to the boys who were sodomized, fondled, orally raped, and otherwise assaulted since 2002.

Enough said by me about this on TST. Time to let this be a place were I think about golf.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Tell that to the boys who were sodomized, fondled, orally raped, and otherwise assaulted since 2002.

Enough said by me about this on TST. Time to let this be a place were I think about golf.

How is that Paterno's fault?

[Grumpter]

Quote:

How is that Paterno's fault?

So far I personally haven't read anything that shows he is at fault. In the whole mess Paterno and the 2 mothers seem to be the only people that actually followed through with anything the way they should have. For all we know Paterno was being told it had been resolved (not only from the University but from McQuery). At the end of the day he didn't witness anything himself (that I have seen) and did the right thing when notified.

Where was the DA's responsibility (and where is the DA who has been missing under suspicious circumstances since 2005 with his computer drive wiped clean), the multiple witnesses who didn't report anything, the university officials that appear to have tried to squash the story. They are to blame in my opinion not Paterno.

I don't particularly like Paterno and have rooted for Penn State to lose as long as I can remember but damn I'm not throwing the guy under the bus without hearing a lot more. What happened to those kids is brutal, awful, disgusting. If someone who had witnessed one of the many acts had stepped forward maybe further incidents could have been prevented. But really, crucify the guy that didn't witness anything but did act appropriately to the allegations?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The problem I have with this and the media is that Paterno is being crucified for doing what was legally required of him but not more.  His legal obligation was to report the incident to his superiors who were legally obligated to contact the police.

I don't really care about college football. I've lived in PA most of my life but almost root against PSU because most people are for them and I like to talk a little smack. Couldn't really care less about the college.

When it comes to sodomizing kids or sexually abusing or raping, I'm sorry, but "I told my superior and he didn't do anything" is a lousy ****ing excuse. If your supervisor is doing nothing you escalate it past that person . If they do nothing, you escalate it PAST THAT PERSON TOO .

[Grumpter]

Quote:

I don't really care about college football. I've lived in PA most of my life but almost root against PSU because most people are for them and I like to talk a little smack. Couldn't really care less about the college.

When it comes to sodomizing kids or sexually abusing or raping, I'm sorry, but "I told my superior and he didn't do anything" is a lousy ****ing excuse. If your supervisor is doing nothing you escalate it past that person. If they do nothing, you escalate it PAST THAT PERSON TOO.

For all we know he was being told by his superiors that the problem had been investigated. McQuery might even have been telling him the issue was resolved. I read McQuery told the kids father before even talking with Paterno. The DA had their hands on allegations, the Penn Dep of Public Welfare had their hands on allegations, the kids father had been told of the allegations, 2 janitors had seen instances without reporting it. Those are the people who should be getting crucified, not Paterno. Leveling those kind of accusations on someone without having personally witnessed them is one hell of a heavy matter (now if Pateno had knowledge of the previous allegations that may be another thing). I wouldn't wish that decision on anyone.

Kids being sodimized is a horrendous thing. Being accused of sodimizing kids leads to a guilty verdict by the public no matter what really happened.

[dhanson]

Originally Posted by Grumpter

For all we know he was being told by his superiors that the problem had been investigated. McQuery might even have been telling him the issue was resolved. I read McQuery told the kids father before even talking with Paterno. The DA had their hands on allegations, the Penn Dep of Public Welfare had their hands on allegations, the kids father had been told of the allegations, 2 janitors had seen instances without reporting it. Those are the people who should be getting crucified, not Paterno. Leveling those kind of accusations on someone without having personally witnessed them is one hell of a heavy matter (now if Pateno had knowledge of the previous allegations that may be another thing). I wouldn't wish that decision on anyone.

Kids being sodimized is a horrendous thing. Being accused of sodimizing kids leads to a guilty verdict by the public no matter what really happened.

I don't think anyone is trying to put all the blame on Paterno's shoulders. Seems like a lot of people tried to push this under the rug, and while Paterno did report it, he did nothing more to ensure Sandusky punished. Given his position (i.e. one of the most powerful voices on campus) this could've been resolved in 2002 rather than 9 years later. I understand that any number of people could've done that, but if you're going to criticize them for inaction, Paterno should at least be held to the same level of criticism.

Also, McQuery told *his* father before he talked to Paterno. At least that's what the grand jury indictment says.

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by shades9323

How is that Paterno's fault?

Did you Read the Grand Jury report?

[dhanson]

I think this is the only portion of the report that mentions Paterno:

[Grumpter]

Quote:

I don't think anyone is trying to put all the blame on Paterno's shoulders. Seems like a lot of people tried to push this under the rug, and while Paterno did report it, he did nothing more to ensure Sandusky punished. Given his position (i.e. one of the most powerful voices on campus) this could've been resolved in 2002 rather than 9 years later. I understand that any number of people could've done that, but if you're going to criticize them for inaction, Paterno should at least be held to the same level of criticism.

Also, McQuery told *his* father before he talked to Paterno. At least that's what the grand jury indictment says.

I see, I either misinterpreted the McQuery/Father bit or the site I was reading had it wrong. Either way glad to hear it wasn't the boys father that did nothing and I wouldn't expect McQuery's father to step forward when he already talked with his son about telling Paterno.

The reason I think Paterno doesn't deserve much criticism is he did not actually witness any act (or it at least it has not been reported he witnessed any act). The people who witnessed the acts needed to step forward and also be told they needed to step forward (which Paterno did what he needed to do there IMO). If Joe knew about the allegations a few years prior then I would say he maybe could have done more but again without witnessing the act that is a very heavy allegation to lay on someone. The people that witnessed the act or tried to cover it up are the ones that deserve the blame. If it comes out Paterno knew it was being covered up then I might change my opinion.

[shades9323]

Originally Posted by lonewolf

Did you Read the Grand Jury report?

Every word. Didn't see anything about being Joe Pa's fault. Could you post that up?

[newtogolf]

I agree 100% about needing to protect kids, but you don't know that Paterno didn't follow up with the Curley and Schultz and was told by them that the situation was being handled and they would let him know if anything happens.   I don't follow college football either and really have no opinion on PSU overall.  What I see is a coach who has a lot on his plate being condemned for not doing more when we have no idea what conversations he had with Curley and Schultz.

Paterno was the middle man, McQueary was the one who saw it and Curley and Schultz were the ones that had legal obligations to address it.  Paterno is running a football program among other things for the university.  If his bosses told him it's being taken care of, why is he going to escalate it?  The outcome after it was all said and done is Sandusky agreed it was wrong to shower naked with the boys and agreed not to do it anymore.  Where were the police, Sandusky's wife who was helping him adopt young boys and hosting these boys sleeping over their house?  Where was McQueary and the janitors when they witnessed these kids being molested?  Where's the DA that disappeared?  How about the H.S. principal and wrestling coach that told Sandusky he couldn't volunteer at the school anymore after witnessing questionable behavior.

If you want to assign blame you can send some Joe's way but there are a number of other people that are far more deserving but in this country the media can't pass at an opportunity to destroy a mans legacy.

Originally Posted by iacas

I don't really care about college football. I've lived in PA most of my life but almost root against PSU because most people are for them and I like to talk a little smack. Couldn't really care less about the college.

When it comes to sodomizing kids or sexually abusing or raping, I'm sorry, but "I told my superior and he didn't do anything" is a lousy ****ing excuse. If your supervisor is doing nothing you escalate it past that person. If they do nothing, you escalate it PAST THAT PERSON TOO.