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Average Handicaps on the Site


iacas
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I've used BB's and Forums for many years and this site is better than most, but still operates under the same conditions that most do.  Most people visit the site to get a feel for the people and how it's administered.  If they see that site has a lot of active threads, is actively moderated and pretty free of spam (which this site is) they spend more time on it.  They get to know the participants and see how threads progress and regress.  Eventually they feel comfortable enough to sign up for an account and maybe even respond to a few threads.  Which threads they respond to is likely related to their handicap level and their self assessment of their golf knowledge.

There are some tough people on this site who don't make it easy for people who are new to playing golf to ask questions.  Someone new to the game needs to be thick skinned to ask questions, especially a basic question that's likely to get some snarky responses.  If people new to the forum have a few bad experiences they may decide it's not for them and either stop participating or give up on the site totally.   I took some hits when I first joined, but realized I'd also participated in a few controversial threads so I stuck it out and am very glad I did but I've also seen others who after a few tough responses said the site wasn't for them and left.

We need to make the site more friendly to those that are new and might not be so comfortable with being publicly beat up.  For most this is a hobby and getting trashed in a forum isn't very fun.  Maybe we could have a new members section where newer members can hang out in relative safety from those that don't have much tolerance for stupid questions

You could also create sections based on handicap average i.e. high handicappers, mid handicappers and low handicappers.  This way the scratch golfers don't have to sort through tons of posts on newbie questions that they are sick of seeing and responding to and the high handicappers can have a free exchange of the issues they are tackling amongst themselves.  Forum leaders and moderators should monitor and participate in all sections so these people are helped but it should make it a bit easier for new members to feel more comfortable about asking questions and starting threads.

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Joe Paradiso

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Originally Posted by Lofty Lefty

Does anyone know what the average handicaps in GOLF are? The typical number that get's thrown around is 16. The claim is that the average handicap in golf hasn't changed in 50 years?


That is for folks that actually maintain a handicap, which you could infer means they are at least a little serious about their game.  I'm sure that the overall handicap, if it could include all golfers, would be a whole lot higher.

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Originally Posted by Lofty Lefty

Does anyone know what the average handicaps in GOLF are? The typical number that get's thrown around is 16. The claim is that the average handicap in golf hasn't changed in 50 years?

Might be a fair bit of truth in that statement, but I'm not too convinced that people are playing the same golf that the previous generation was.

All the new hi tech gear could be offsetting the fact that golfers are getting older and older. We've got so many golfers at my club 60+ or even 70+ that can't hit it more than 130, yet they maintain handicaps. Unless there was a similar portion of these players 50 years ago, that must have an affect the overall average handicap.

As for TST averages, I'm not surprised to see that we are, on average at least, good golfers!

Stats from the USGA.  About 5 million golfers have a GHIN handicap which is only around 20% of all golfers.

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Well, according to Erik's numbers, I'm just about the most average guy here. That's not going to change over the winter either, since our handicap posting season ended at midnight last night.

As far as the forum environment is concerned, this is by far the best golf forum on the internet.  I'm a member at several others, and while some may qualify as being more "friendly", for the most part those ones are dead as far as participation is concerned.  There are a couple which only have a half dozen active members that don't get a dozen posts a day.  Some of the members here may be a bit brusque at times, but questions do actually get answered informatively.  Discussions which are started in a friendly manner usually stay that way unless someone deliberately destroys the mood.  Most of the time when I see a dispute, it's because the offended party didn't get the answer he was expecting and got upset by it - too often because he was looking for support for his belief rather than honesty.  If your contention is out in fantasy land, somebody is going to call you on it.  It may be Erik, or me, or Sean Miller, or someone else, and we have our own beliefs like anyone else.  And sometimes we are wrong (all except Erik ) , and when we are, we get slapped down too.

Erik does a great job of keeping threads on track, of sorting threads which are posted in the wrong forums, and generally keeping this site a clean and pleasant place to hang out.  I find this forum far less cliquish than a couple others I've been to and left because if you don't toe the party line there you are always wrong.  Anyone who wants to participate in an intelligent discussion is welcome to speak his mind as long as he remains civil.  He may be wrong - he may get shot down (I've been shot down many times here and I still live to be wrong again ), but he won't be banned just because he doesn't agree with the Admin (which I've seen happen elsewhere).

This is a good site and in my opinion, it doesn't need to be any more friendly or inviting than it already is.  Anyone who has lurked for a while will know whether he really wants to participate in an honest discussion, and is welcome to join in if that's the case.

Rick

"He who has the fastest cart will never have a bad lie."

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This should be done yearly to see if those averages get lower.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lofty Lefty View Post

Does anyone know what the average handicaps in GOLF are? The typical number that get's thrown around is 16. The claim is that the average handicap in golf hasn't changed in 50 years?

FWIW, I believe that it's dropped quite a bit: http://thesandtrap.com/t/21889/what-is-the-average-player-handicap-index#post_271547

Despite decades of naysayers and experts alike suggesting that the average handicap is not dropping, has not dropped and never will drop, the fact is, it has. Let's say that again: The average handicap of all golfers -- men, women and children -- has decreased consistently for the past 15 years. The average handicap today is two strokes better than it was in the early 1990s, according to research provided to Golf Digest by the USGA's Golf Handicap & Information Network (GHIN).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post

That is for folks that actually maintain a handicap, which you could infer means they are at least a little serious about their game.  I'm sure that the overall handicap, if it could include all golfers, would be a whole lot higher.


Exactly. MUCH higher. Especially if they followed the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

This is a good site and in my opinion, it doesn't need to be any more friendly or inviting than it already is.  Anyone who has lurked for a while will know whether he really wants to participate in an honest discussion, and is welcome to join in if that's the case.


Thanks for all you said, Rich.

I think that there are several of us - I'm including myself - who can strive to be friendlier without losing the information. I know personally I struggle with trying to be "brief" but still informative, and often my brevity comes off as less friendly than I'd prefer. It's something I'm terrible at, but I keep it in mind and I think I've improved over the years. Still a long way to go, but going in the right direction.

Good discussion, guys. It seems thus far that we're doing okay, and we don't need a separate forum for people new to the site to ask questions, but if you disagree say so here or in a PM or something, and if you have any other ideas let's keep hearing them.

P.S. Kieran, remind me in a year and we'll post updated stats. ;-)

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
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There is absolutely no doubt that my game has improved since first signing up on this forum (no one is lobbying me to say that, it's the truth).  The details on swing methods, etc, are clear and precise on this forum...more so than any other forum that has a large variety of ideas and thoughts that can confuse people.  There is a common theme on this forum on the facts of the golf swing and while at times it may come off a very "opinionated" there is no denying facts when it comes to ball flight laws, etc etc....I like it when people get "called out" on things that are incorrect (including myself who can and WILL be wrong at times)..why?  Well because on this forum, whenever someone is "called out," it's followed up with FACTS that explain why they are wrong.  That to me is absolute gold and shouldn't be taken for granted.

I guess the stats Erik has showed makes sense, to me at least.  Considering my game is at the level it is, I starve for factual tips that can help get me better vs. the everyday BS that we read in Golf magazines :(see "the comics thread" on this forum).

While I agree with a any type of section for people who are beginners, keep in mind that any newbie on this forum can browse and if they are really determined, find the things that they are curious about as it pertains to their games...and once they educate themselves (it takes time), they can then ask better questions intially so they don't feel "out of place" when they start.  That's exactly what I did and it's worked for me.

Deryck Griffith

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Originally Posted by Kobey

One reason is that if you aren't very knowledgeable about the game it is a lot harder to find threads that you can contribute to.  We want to play on here too but for someone like me to post answers in swing threads or technical forums would be idiotic.  So I have to limit myself to threads that deal mostly in opinions.  That's why there are so many duplicate threads with the same old questions.  The posters usually aren't lazy.  After all, they went to the trouble of becoming a member and posting a question.  That takes more time and effort than just googling it.  They want to talk to other people about golf and are probably not allowed to even mention the G word around their wives anymore, so they post questions that are in the scope of their experience, which are usually the basics.


Come now.  That's just because you're thinking sensibly about it.  I've seen plenty of folks post drivel that passes for good golf, including myself to be honest.  You're probably just not trying hard enough.  Here are some ideas to get you started:  "Keep your head still", "Fire the hips", "Maintain your spine angle".

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R11 9° (Lowered to 8.5°) UST Proforce VTS 7x tipped 1" | 906F2 15° and 18° | 585H 21° | Mizuno MP-67 +1 length TT DG X100 | Vokey 52° Oil Can, Cleveland CG10 2-dot 56° and 60° | TM Rossa Corza Ghost 35.5" | Srixon Z Star XV | Size 14 Footjoy Green Joys | Tour Striker Pro 5, 7, 56 | Swingwing

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I removed my 'handicap' because it offended someone, can't remember who, because it was calculated on ClubSG, not a true USGA number. Doesn't matter, as I don't fall in your average numbers anyway. As for asking questions, I have witnessed posts on this site and others, where the first thing written is an apology for asking a dumb/stupid/ignorant question that may have been asked before, and the subsequent flamethrowers applied. Now this site is not as bad as some, but there are a few here that ae very quick to lash out, and I think this causes trepidation on the part of new members. So why post and risk public humiliation Just an observation.

My personal pet peeve about the internet and forums is this. It takes all my self controll especially on public issues when offensive posts are made. I recognize offending others and getting a response so additional insults can be made is often the goal. Even though I have a background in social work and understand it intellectually, it is still frustrating to see someone choose an ego rush over the longer lasting satisfaction of thoughtful discussion and actually helping others .

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Reverse sandbaggers, the lot of you! ;-) *cough* I mean.... Looks like I found my target handicap index for my 2012 goal. :-)

"Golf is an entire game built around making something that is naturally easy - putting a ball into a hole - as difficult as possible." - Scott Adams

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When you talk about handicaps it is usefull to remember that a large portion of the golfing population doesn't carry a handicap and has no idea what their handicap would be if figured correctly. I suspect a smaller percentage of golfers carry a handicap now than 30 years ago. I believe Dave Peltz or someone else came up with what average golfers shot , distances etc a few years ago. When golfers who didn't carry a handicap were included average scores were over 100. I believe average carry distance for men, with a driver was 183 yards or something. My point is average handicap applies only to the subset of golfers who choose to carry an official handicap and may not reflect whether gofers on average are scoring better or worse.

1W Cleveland LauncherComp 10.5, 3W Touredge Exotics 15 deg.,FY Wilson 19.5 degree
4 and 5H, 6I-GW Callaway Razr, SW, LW Cleveland Cg-14, Putter Taylor Made Suzuka, Ball, Srixon XV Yellow

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This is the same problem that occurs in chess ratings.  The average person, when rated, rates lower than the average online player, who rates lower than the average OTB club player.  The "Why is it that way?" correlation-or-causation question is a little more complicated.  Players who really want to improve seek out the best players to play and learn from.  They do a number of things that lower rated players do not do.  Take a look at a what happens when a chess tournament ends.  The U1600 section bolts for the door and the 2000+ players stay for a while analyzing their games.  You have to do this in chess to have lasting improvement.  The chess rating is the measure of this improvement.  Chess players use rating to determine whether they are improving or not (relative to the field).  In golf, better players do things that most people do not do.  Keeping an accurate handicap is a small example.

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Originally Posted by iacas

We ran these stats for an advertiser, but they were interesting so I thought I'd share.

Of all the people with numerical values for their handicaps (really, that should be everyone except pros who are welcome to put "Pro"), here's the data:

Average handicap across all TST members: 13.5

Median handicap: 13.

I find that stuff interesting. So I thought I'd share.


Thanks for sharing......interesting.    According to the USGA, the average handicap is roughly 16......the members on this site beats that average!!!

What's in Paul's Bag:
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- Big Bertha Alpha 815 3-wood
- Callaway Razr Fit 5-wood
- Callaway Big Bertha 4-5 Rescue Clubs
-- Mizuno Mx-25 six iron-gap wedge
- Mizuno Mp-T4 56degree SW
- Mizuno Mp-T11 60degree SW
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Quote:

Okay. So what can we do to make it more accommodating to people who want to talk but are afraid to ask questions? Send me a PM if you don't want to post here - we can also start a new thread somewhere if you have some ideas.

I know saying "we're all golfers and you should feel free to ask anything anywhere" won't do much to persuade you, so what can we do?



I'm already persuaded.  As you've probably noticed by now, I don't have too much of a problem chiming in if I think I have something to contribute.  But I still get nervous when I post something that opposes the viewpoint of people who know a lot more about the game than I do.  Luckily, this is a very easygoing place, so I wasn't run off for being a newbie with opinions like I would have been on some other forums.

Originally Posted by Deryck Griffith

While I agree with a any type of section for people who are beginners, keep in mind that any newbie on this forum can browse and if they are really determined, find the things that they are curious about as it pertains to their games...and once they educate themselves (it takes time), they can then ask better questions intially so they don't feel "out of place" when they start.  That's exactly what I did and it's worked for me.



As you say, educating themselves by browsing takes time. IMO people want to participate, not just read.  That's the whole point of a forum, a sense of community and the sharing of thoughts and ideas with others.  I'd bet most people don't get here by searching for a golf forum to join.  They search for the answer to a question they have and a search engine brings them to a thread on here.  Their first impressions of the content on that thread have a lot of bearing on whether they decide to stick around or not.  That's how I got here. (Everybody thank Google)



Originally Posted by newtogolf

We need to make the site more friendly to those that are new and might not be so comfortable with being publicly beat up.  For most this is a hobby and getting trashed in a forum isn't very fun.  Maybe we could have a new members section where newer members can hang out in relative safety from those that don't have much tolerance for stupid questions

You could also create sections based on handicap average i.e. high handicappers, mid handicappers and low handicappers.  This way the scratch golfers don't have to sort through tons of posts on newbie questions that they are sick of seeing and responding to and the high handicappers can have a free exchange of the issues they are tackling amongst themselves.  Forum leaders and moderators should monitor and participate in all sections so these people are helped but it should make it a bit easier for new members to feel more comfortable about asking questions and starting threads.


I think a section for beginners/hackers/recreational golfers might be a great idea.  Then again, I might be the only one posting in it.  Maybe someone could post a poll to see if there are lurkers or even regular posters who would like to have a place like that where they would feel more comfortable posting about things that make the traditionalists cringe when they read them.

Right now there 20 members and 223 guests on here.  That is a lot of potential new posters if they can be enticed to stay.  And as an added bonus, who is more likely to click on a sponsor's ad, the person who has been on here for years or the beginner that wants to upgrade his hand-me-down or garage sale gear.

Iacas, I hope you aren't taking this as criticism.  I have nothing but respect for what I have seen on this site in my short time here.  I haven't even bothered looking at other golf forums as this one seems to have everything I need.  I'm just trying to help by pointing out some things from a new member's perspective.

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Originally Posted by Lofty Lefty

Does anyone know what the average handicaps in GOLF are? The typical number that get's thrown around is 16. The claim is that the average handicap in golf hasn't changed in 50 years?



16 is the average for those who keep a USGA HC, but on the other hand......only a small percentage of all golfers keep a real HC.   On any given weekend, a 16HC will do better than average of all golfers.

What's in Paul's Bag:
- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Driver
- Big Bertha Alpha 815 3-wood
- Callaway Razr Fit 5-wood
- Callaway Big Bertha 4-5 Rescue Clubs
-- Mizuno Mx-25 six iron-gap wedge
- Mizuno Mp-T4 56degree SW
- Mizuno Mp-T11 60degree SW
- Putter- Ping Cadence Ketsch

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Originally Posted by lville lefty

Stats from the USGA.  About 5 million golfers have a GHIN handicap which is only around 20% of all golfers.



That was just the point I was getting to....thanks

What's in Paul's Bag:
- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha Driver
- Big Bertha Alpha 815 3-wood
- Callaway Razr Fit 5-wood
- Callaway Big Bertha 4-5 Rescue Clubs
-- Mizuno Mx-25 six iron-gap wedge
- Mizuno Mp-T4 56degree SW
- Mizuno Mp-T11 60degree SW
- Putter- Ping Cadence Ketsch

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Originally Posted by allin

When you talk about handicaps it is usefull to remember that a large portion of the golfing population doesn't carry a handicap and has no idea what their handicap would be if figured correctly. I suspect a smaller percentage of golfers carry a handicap now than 30 years ago. I believe Dave Peltz or someone else came up with what average golfers shot , distances etc a few years ago. When golfers who didn't carry a handicap were included average scores were over 100. I believe average carry distance for men, with a driver was 183 yards or something. My point is average handicap applies only to the subset of golfers who choose to carry an official handicap and may not reflect whether gofers on average are scoring better or worse.

Full ACK!

I also think, you have to distiguish between US-handicaps and European handicaps.

According to Iville's posted table, with my hcp of 17.3 I would be within the best 67% in the US.

Here in Austria, I'm inside the top 13.000 of 100.000 golfers, which would be 13%.

That's a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge difference...

greetings

michi

"I have my own golf course and Par is whatever I say it is. There's a hole which is a Par13 and yesterday I damn nearly birdied that sucker." - Willie Nelson

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Looks like I have a bit of work to do as well.  I had hoped to be at least to 12 by the end of the season, but running out of time. I have improved this year, and credit to this sight for part of that.

Don

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