A Centered Pivot Golf Swing

[mvmac]

One of the better videos Mr. Crossfield has put out. I like showing the slight axis tilt (right shoulder bellow the left), and how he shows that right hip going back and up.

Amazing how common those positions are. Hips don't turn, hips slide back, lead knee kicks in, arms have to bend in order to get the club to complete some kind of backswing, then they cover it with their upper center while the lower center stays back.

[Mr. Desmond]

Amazing how common those positions are. Hips don't turn, hips slide back, lead knee kicks in, arms have to bend in order to get the club to complete some kind of backswing, then they cover it with their upper center while the lower center stays back.

Not to get off-topic, but I forgot ... what does the lead knee do in a center pivot on the backswing?

At address, foot is flared and legs are buckled outwards. I assume that stabilizes the front knee. Does it kick out (towards ball), flex slightly inwards, or do nothing much at all? by the top of the backswing.

[mvmac]

Not to get off-topic, but I forgot ... what does the lead knee do in a center pivot on the backswing?

At address, foot is flared and legs are buckled outwards. I assume that stabilizes the front knee. Does it kick out (towards ball), flex slightly inwards, or do nothing much at all? by the top of the backswing.

Knee goes from slightly outside the lead hip joint at 1 to inline or slightly inside the hip joint at 4. Knee being rotated outwards regulates how far back the knee can go.

Lead knee gains flex and has some inward movement. By blending these two movements the hips can continuously turn throughout the backswing and stay centered.

This is why good turning rates are important for keeping the arms from over swinging and/or pulling  the rear elbow behind the shirt seam. If the player translates the hip center right, the tendency would be to slide the rear elbow behind him (if there is an effort to keep their pressure points) or lift the arms (out of sequence with pivot). The continuous movement of the hips, left going down, right going up and around, keeps the arms "in check" and in sequence with the pivot.

[Mr. Desmond]

^^^^^

Thank you for the pics and succinct explanation.

Appreciate it.

(my knee was apparently pointing out towards the ball recently, and after it was pointed out, I fear that my inward movement was now exaggerated ... it was. This clarifies the correct move.)

[Slowcelica]

I'm working on getting a centered pivot, and my issue is I have trouble with my head moving down towards the ground about 2 or 3 inches in the back swing, could this be because as I get toward the top of my back swing I don't extend or stand up a little like you mention in your video? I've gotten it to where I keep my head pretty steady left to right, but can't still figure out why I dip my head a little bit in the back swing.

[mvmac]

I'm working on getting a centered pivot, and my issue is I have trouble with my head moving down towards the ground about 2 or 3 inches in the back swing, could this be because as I get toward the top of my back swing I don't extend or stand up a little like you mention in your video? I've gotten it to where I keep my head pretty steady left to right, but can't still figure out why I dip my head a little bit in the back swing.

The head doesn't have to stay perfectly level, it can go down a bit, especially if it happens towards the end of your backswing. If you feel like it goes down too much you can add more "stretch".

[Slowcelica]

The head doesn't have to stay perfectly level, it can go down a bit, especially if it happens towards the end of your backswing. If you feel like it goes down too much you can add more "stretch".

I read on the 5sk site that some vertical head movement is ok, but lateral is bad. If I have vertical head movement doesn't that mean I need to compensate in someway? It does happen about 3/4 of the way back when I start to stretch and really push to get my shoulders turned 90*. Also is there any drills that can help me keep my head centered in the downswing, I have problems keeping my head centered while sliding my hips and weight forward. @mvmac

[boogielicious]

@Slowcelica ,

When you use a quote, you need to put your response outside the quote box.  Otherwise, responders cannot quote you.

The best drills are just going through your swing sequence slowly and repeating the proper movement.  For the head dipping, which I have had, I worked on going from A1, setup, to A4, top of the backswing, with the feeling of stretching my right side as much as I could.  Feel like the right shoulder is going as high as possible and your shoulders are turning as much as possible.  Add to that the feeling of your arms being as long as possible with the right arm being as straight as possible.

Do this in front of the mirror if you can.  You can even do it without a club.  See the video below ( @sk golf ).  I use the first parts without a club to get the feeling.

[Slowcelica]

@Slowcelica , When you use a quote, you need to put your response outside the quote box.  Otherwise, responders cannot quote you. The best drills are just going through your swing sequence slowly and repeating the proper movement.  For the head dipping, which I have had, I worked on going from A1, setup, to A4, top of the backswing, with the feeling of stretching my right side as much as I could.  Feel like the right shoulder is going as high as possible and your shoulders are turning as much as possible.  Add to that the feeling of your arms being as long as possible with the right arm being as straight as possible. Do this in front of the mirror if you can.  You can even do it without a club.  See the video below ( @sk golf ).  I use the first parts without a club to get the feeling.

Oops I'm usually in my phone so sometimes that happens :) Thanks I'll give this video a look, I usually practice it in front of a mirror so that won't be an issue. Last night I made a point of setting up with a little more weight to my front side more like s&t; and I think that helped some.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

Doesn't matter if I'm better or not, I'm just describing what is actually happening. I don't want other readers to get the wrong idea about the motion of the body in a functional golf swing. It may be natural for you but many players have to be educated and feel that the lead shoulder works down longer so they can turn it under their chin. If they actually turn level, their head will move well to the right and they can't make a "full" turn. The shoulder "collides" into the chin. Also when we address the ball we are bent over somewhat. It would make the most sense to be able to turn our bodies on an angle and not level to the ground. This is where I kind of agree with @Phil McGleno 's post. I'm not a huge fan of tips because every golfer has different priorities and different feels.

I am still not sure I am sold on this. Do you have data on how far the left shoulder goes down? I have watched some pros swing videos today but with the rotation it's hard to tell on a static point how much it drops. Plus most of the drop looks like it comes from the left arm pushing up(internal rotation.) I don't have a perfect swing by any stretch and I definitely bring the club back inside but I will say that I actively avoid the end position in that 5sk video and I feel a stretch in my left side not my right side in the backswing. I also didn't see any of the pros swing have that much back bend at the top of the backswing. Is it a stack and tilt thing or maybe just an over exaggeration in the video?

[whatwoodtigerdo]

I am still not sure I am sold on this. Do you have data on how far the left shoulder goes down? I have watched some pros swing videos today but with the rotation it's hard to tell on a static point how much it drops. Plus most of the drop looks like it comes from the left arm pushing up(internal rotation.) I don't have a perfect swing by any stretch and I definitely bring the club back inside but I will say that I actively avoid the end position in that 5sk video and I feel a stretch in my left side not my right side in the backswing. I also didn't see any of the pros swing have that much back bend at the top of the backswing. Is it a stack and tilt thing or maybe just an over exaggeration in the video?

Sorry for quoting myself but I did want to amend it after fooling around. Obviously the left shoulder moves down some but I don't think it is that much. Also I still don't think it's an active movement of the shoulders. As best I can explain it if you stay connected at all then when you rotate around and lift your arms, the the right shoulder has to lift which raises the right shoulder lowering the left. So I still say the shoulders go around and the arms go up is a good tip. I still stand by the rest of the first post about that position.

[iacas]

@whatwoodtigerdo , I know Mike's responding, but here…

[mvmac]

I am still not sure I am sold on this. Do you have data on how far the left shoulder goes down? I have watched some pros swing videos today but with the rotation it's hard to tell on a static point how much it drops. Plus most of the drop looks like it comes from the left arm pushing up(internal rotation.) I don't have a perfect swing by any stretch and I definitely bring the club back inside but I will say that I actively avoid the end position in that 5sk video and I feel a stretch in my left side not my right side in the backswing.

I don't know what to say other than provide some examples. The lead shoulder definitely goes down. Like I said before at address the left shoulder is higher than the right and at the top of the backswing the left shoulder is lower, under the chin.

Dufner doesn't "lift" his arms and his left shoulder is much lower than the right at A4 (top of the backswing). The arms lifting doesn't have anything to do with the bend of the torso. In order to do that he is doing more than just turning around.

Lead shoulder goes down about 7-8 inches and moves inward 7-8 inches.

I don't have a perfect swing by any stretch and I definitely bring the club back inside but I will say that I actively avoid the end position in that 5sk video and I feel a stretch in my left side not my right side in the backswing.  I also didn't see any of the pros swing have that much back bend at the top of the backswing.

You may not feel the left bend but it is certainly occuring. If you didn't bend your shoulders would turn level to the ground. That doesn't happen with any good player, they turn their torso close to 90 degrees to their address inclination.

Here's the top TPI guy, Greg Rose, like us he also studies the swing and how it moves in a 3 dimensional space.

Sorry for quoting myself but I did want to amend it after fooling around. Obviously the left shoulder moves down some but I don't think it is that much. Also I still don't think it's an active movement of the shoulders. As best I can explain it if you stay connected at all then when you rotate around and lift your arms, the the right shoulder has to lift which raises the right shoulder lowering the left. So I still say the shoulders go around and the arms go up is a good tip. I still stand by the rest of the first post about that position.

Not sure what you mean by "active movement of the shoulder", the bend is mostly coming from the hips. Highlighting the lead shoulder can be easier for golfers to see and feel. The 5SK video talks about the entire left side bending.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

I don't know what to say other than provide some examples. The lead shoulder definitely goes down. Like I said before at address the left shoulder is higher than the right and at the top of the backswing the left shoulder is lower, under the chin.  Dufner doesn't "lift" his arms and his left shoulder is much lower than the right at A4 (top of the backswing). The arms lifting doesn't have anything to do with the bend of the torso. In order to do that he is doing more than just turning around. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/108101/] [/URL] Lead shoulder goes down about 7-8 inches and moves inward 7-8 inches. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/108102/] [/URL] You may not feel the left bend but it is certainly occuring. If you didn't bend your shoulders would turn level to the ground. That doesn't happen with any good player, they turn their torso close to 90 degrees to their address inclination. [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/108103/] [/URL] Here's the top TPI guy, Greg Rose, like us he also studies the swing and how it moves in a 3 dimensional space. Not sure what you mean by "active movement of the shoulder", the bend is mostly coming from the hips. Highlighting the lead shoulder can be easier for golfers to see and feel. The 5SK video talks about the entire left side bending.

Alright I will play along because you do seem like a swell guy. But again as I stated before these post I see the left shoulder drops but I contend thats because the arms lift so the statement the arms go up and down and the shoulders go around is correct. It's obviously just one example of a pro but you don't think Dufner lifts his arms? Is there a quote that shows him saying that? How could he possibly get the club over his shoulder and his arms and hands in that position without lifting them? Are you saying that's all from body rotation? I will address the second part later.

[saevel25]

Alright I will play along. But again as I stated before these post I see the left shoulder drops but I contend thats because the arms lift so the statement the arms go up and down and the shoulders go around is correct.

Take your golf stance. Now fold your arms across your chest. Now just turn around your center. Your left shoulder goes down and around, your right shoulder goes around and up. It is that simple.

The only motion that really would cause a shoulder to lower, s if you have your shoulders blades pulled back into an upright posture. Then if you release that the shoulder blades, actually hunch and sag during the backswing, letting the chest muscles come closer together, the shoulders will lower if you are leaned over. Depends on your spine angle for how that looks visually.

Yet that does not occur in the golf swing. In the golf swing the shoulder blades are already loose. This is why you see in the images above, the posture shows the roll/hunch of the upper back, a natural relaxed position. No golfer retracts the shoulder blades together at address.

What you might be describing is a feel. You might feel more arms than rotation, that is why you think it is due to the arm movement, when it is not.

It's obviously just one example of a pro but you don't think Dufner lifts his arms? Is there a quote that shows him saying that? How could he possibly get the club over his shoulder and his left arms and hands in that position without lifting them? Are you saying that's all from body rotation?

I will address the second part later.

Of course the arm raises up. The left arm will travel up the chest, and the right arm will fold and in some cases extend away from the body. Some like Kutchar keep their right arm closer to the body.

The arms do not however contribute to the shoulders lowering or raising, that is rotation.

[whatwoodtigerdo]

Take your golf stance. Now fold your arms across your chest. Now just turn around your center. Your left shoulder goes down and around, your right shoulder goes around and up. It is that simple.  The only motion that really would cause a shoulder to lower, s if you have your shoulders blades pulled back into an upright posture. Then if you release that the shoulder blades, actually hunch and sag during the backswing, letting the chest muscles come closer together, the shoulders will lower if you are leaned over. Depends on your spine angle for how that looks visually. Yet that does not occur in the golf swing. In the golf swing the shoulder blades are already loose. This is why you see in the images above, the posture shows the roll/hunch of the upper back, a natural relaxed position. No golfer retracts the shoulder blades together at address. What you might be describing is a feel. You might feel more arms than rotation, that is why you think it is due to the arm movement, when it is not.  Of course the arm raises up. The left arm will travel up the chest, and the right arm will fold and in some cases extend away from the body. Some like Kutchar keep their right arm closer to the body.  The arms do not however contribute to the shoulders lowering or raising, that is rotation.

I disagree and think that is your feel. I can easily put my arms across my chest and rotate around my spine without my left shoulder going down and still clear my chin enough. Not sure if you guys are in a shrug position that is causing that(relating to the 5sk video posted previously). What I cannot do is keep my right arm connected and get my arms and hands into the backswing position without the shoulders changing and some rotation being forced. And to the last part I am not sure if it is rotary swing or Herman Williams but I distinctly remember watching a video saying to start the backswing my squeezing your right should blade down(or something along those lines). Not that it is how I start my back swing but my right shoulder blade definitely squeezes down.

[billchao]

I disagree and think that is your feel. I can easily put my arms across my chest and rotate around my spine without my left shoulder going down and still clear my chin enough.

Do you have this move on video? If you are in fact rotating your shoulders level, they're not rotating about your spine and you're not performing a centered pivot correctly. I can rotate my shoulders pretty flat and still get the left shoulder under my chin, too. That doesn't really mean all that much. The spine is inclined towards the ground at address. If the shoulders are rotated about the spine (perpendicular), one has to go down and one goes up.

[iacas]

But again as I stated before these post I see the left shoulder drops but I contend thats because the arms lift so the statement the arms go up and down and the shoulders go around is correct.

Nope:

It's obviously just one example of a pro but you don't think Dufner lifts his arms?

Lifting your arms does nothing to change the shoulder sockets. It's a complete non-starter. This makes no sense at all. Plus, if both arms lift, why would one shoulder go UP while the other goes DOWN?

This bit you have about the arms lifting is a complete non-starter. Particularly in light of the photo earlier in this post. NO LIFTING, shoulders on an inclined angle.

Take your golf stance. Now fold your arms across your chest. Now just turn around your center. Your left shoulder goes down and around, your right shoulder goes around and up. It is that simple.

Yup.

The arms do not however contribute to the shoulders lowering or raising, that is rotation.

Simple geometry.

I disagree and think that is your feel.

It's what's happening, in reality, in 3D, biomechanically. You may feel something different, but you're feels aren't matched with reality if you feel your left shoulder not going down. (Or, alternatively, you have a horrible, terrible, no-good very bad swing, Alexander.)

I can easily put my arms across my chest and rotate around my spine without my left shoulder going down and still clear my chin enough.

So can I… when I'm playing T-ball off a very, very tall tee.

We are bent over and play golf shots with a ball on the ground, however.

One more basic picture, since we want to turn our shoulders in a "circle" that's inclined to the ground: