Validity of The Golfing Machine

[iacas]

Thanks, Erik. Would you advice against trying a TGM authorized instructor?

No. I could be TGM authorized if I wanted. And at least a TGM AI is seeking more knowledge, which is more than can be said for 90% of instructors.

[nevets88]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just a casual reader of the book, but didn't it say something about AoA of driver should be around 0 degrees optimally or something like that. Not sure if equipment advances has anything to do with it. Where is cog of wood woods?

[dennyjones]

Nah. My wife already nixed the idea of taking over the garage, building a wooden plane board, and bringing some cute girl over in a skirt to pose for photos in all sorts of "positions."

I realize this is an old thread but I want pictures!

[mvmac]

Hi,

I was wondering if any of the 5SK instructors could share some of their comments on TGM. Specifically, what are the things that are considered outdated? Based on previous posts, it looks like that might be a long discussion. I'd be interested in just reading about some of the larger issues that are considered outdated that are still being taught by TGM instructors.

Thanks!

As Erik said, most of it is virtually outdated. Homer always intended for it to keep evolving, as better technology became available, but it never happened.

Off the top of my head, here would be the top two "worst" things in the book

- Hinge actions

- Swinging and hitting

The "legacy" of TGM is that it was a good attempt at the time to try and organize functional swing components and patterns. Another good part was the attempt at trying to add some sophistication and specificity with the terminology.

[mchepp]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just a casual reader of the book, but didn't it say something about AoA of driver should be around 0 degrees optimally or something like that. Not sure if equipment advances has anything to do with it. Where is cog of wood woods?

Club ball interaction was for the most part a total guess by Homer. One can likely disregard anything said like this in the book. I think considering he didn't have a high speed camera he actually did alright, but with Phantoms and the like, we know more now. I imagine Homer would have loved the Phantom.

As Erik said, most of it is virtually outdated. Homer always intended for it to keep evolving, as better technology became available, but it never happened.

Off the top of my head, here would be the top two "worst" things in the book

- Hinge actions

- Swinging and hitting

The "legacy" of TGM is that it was a good attempt at the time to try and organize functional swing components and patterns. Another good part was the attempt at trying to add some sophistication and specificity with the terminology.

My vote is for hitting, nobody does this. Swinging is possible, but not totally, so yeah I agree with those.

[scopek]

As Erik said, most of it is virtually outdated. Homer always intended for it to keep evolving, as better technology became available, but it never happened.

Off the top of my head, here would be the top two "worst" things in the book

- Hinge actions

- Swinging and hitting

The "legacy" of TGM is that it was a good attempt at the time to try and organize functional swing components and patterns. Another good part was the attempt at trying to add some sophistication and specificity with the terminology.

Thanks for the input.

I tried a lesson with a TGM AI a few weeks ago. He had me working on something called "impact fixed" at address. This is basically setting up with the right forearm on the same plane as the club shaft. The instructor said that this is where my right forearm should be at impact, so why not just set up there? I've been working on this, but it continues to feel very uncomfortable as I'm used to a standard address position. Also, he's had me concentrate on moving my right shoulder down plane and focusing in on the right arm action and keeping the left arm as passive as possible. Impact, he said, should be with the club shaft on plane with the right forearm. He also wants me to establish the right flying wedge as soon as possible and hold that throughout the swing.

Does this sound legit?

[iacas]

My vote is for hitting, nobody does this. Swinging is possible, but not totally, so yeah I agree with those.

Everyone both hits and swings. Homer was classifying a "feel" or a "look" not what happens biomechanically.

I tried a lesson with a TGM AI a few weeks ago. He had me working on something called "impact fixed" at address. This is basically setting up with the right forearm on the same plane as the club shaft. The instructor said that this is where my right forearm should be at impact, so why not just set up there? I've been working on this, but it continues to feel very uncomfortable as I'm used to a standard address position. Also, he's had me concentrate on moving my right shoulder down plane and focusing in on the right arm action and keeping the left arm as passive as possible. Impact, he said, should be with the club shaft on plane with the right forearm. He also wants me to establish the right flying wedge as soon as possible and hold that throughout the swing.

Does this sound legit?

Uhm, that sounds like an old-school TGM guy, and one who hasn't updated his knowledge base in awhile. It sounds like someone who wants to put everyone into a single swing.

Look at a lot of PGA Tour players… whose right forearms are anywhere from "on" the shaft plane (+/- 2°, rare), close to it (common, within 2-10°), or outside it (rare again, > 10°).

[scopek]

Everyone both hits and swings. Homer was classifying a "feel" or a "look" not what happens biomechanically.

Uhm, that sounds like an old-school TGM guy, and one who hasn't updated his knowledge base in awhile. It sounds like someone who wants to put everyone into a single swing.

Look at a lot of PGA Tour players… whose right forearms are anywhere from "on" the shaft plane (+/- 2°, rare), close to it (common, within 2-10°), or outside it (rare again, > 10°).

Yeah, I started to get a bit nervous when he called Homer Kelly a genius. He's a nice guy and well respected, but I might have to continue to look elsewhere. :(

Have you established a 5SK instructor in the Detroit/Ann Arbor area???????????

[iacas]

Yeah, I started to get a bit nervous when he called Homer Kelly a genius. He's a nice guy and well respected, but I might have to continue to look elsewhere. :(

Have you established a 5SK instructor in the Detroit/Ann Arbor area???????????

Huron, OH 44839 isn't too far away, right?

[scopek]

Huron, OH 44839 isn't too far away, right?

I've had a few lessons with Rob when he was just doing S&T.; I'm glad to see that he's become a 5SK instructor. It's a bit of drive and takes half a day for the drive and lesson. With a full time job and a 20 month old at home, that's a lot of time these days. I've been endlessly in search of a good teacher close to home so I can see him or her at least every other week. I might have to go back to plan B and do evolvr and maybe see Rob or one of the S&T; folks every once in a while for a hands on view. I did one lesson on evolvr--it was good, but was really hoping for a local instructor....just haven't found what I'm looking for. I wished I lived close to Erie!

[iacas]

I've had a few lessons with Rob when he was just doing S&T.; I'm glad to see that he's become a 5SK instructor. It's a bit of drive and takes half a day for the drive and lesson. With a full time job and a 20 month old at home, that's a lot of time these days. I've been endlessly in search of a good teacher close to home so I can see him or her at least every other week. I might have to go back to plan B and do evolvr and maybe see Rob or one of the S&T; folks every once in a while for a hands on view. I did one lesson on evolvr--it was good, but was really hoping for a local instructor....just haven't found what I'm looking for. I wished I lived close to Erie!

I hear ya.

One thing to note though, which kind of freaks my students out sometimes… I sell (to most new students) a four-lesson package. The first lesson is full swing, the second usually short game, and then 3 and 4 are what they need work on the most (sometimes one is a driver-specific one, but they're almost always full swing stuff).

I tell people they'll be wasting their time and money to come see me after less than about a month — usually — between full swing lessons. You simply can't change patterns quickly enough for that kind of time frame to matter.

So lessons every other week seems like overkill. Lesson 2 will be almost the same as lesson 1, and lesson 3 will still be only slightly different.

That said, there are people who will practice A LOT in between, and can make changes more quickly, but they're rare, and given your time constraints, you're not likely to be one of them.

[mchepp]

I hear ya.

That said, there are people who will practice A LOT in between, and can make changes more quickly, but they're rare, and given your time constraints, you're not likely to be one of them.

I can say with a kid, wife, job I am one of those that need 4-6 weeks to show much improvement in a change. I recommend you start to work with someone like Rob and plan to go every 4-6 weeks. It is likely you can send him a video from your practice session 2 weeks in to just ask him if you are on the right track if you have bought a lesson package.

[scopek]

Thanks for the input Erik and mchepp. I appreciate the perspective on how long to wait for change. I manage to get about 2 hours of practice in a day because I have a basement with a net, but I bet that's not what you consider to be "a lot" since you're a pro.

At a minimum, I'm not going to proceed with the TGM instructor. I'm glad I posted here to get some knowledgable input. Thanks for that....I think I might go back to giving evlvor a try and contacting Rob about coordinating some in person visits every 3 to 4 months. Getting together even every 4 to 6 weeks is a bit tricky for the next year or two--long story as to why.

Thanks again.

[iacas]

Thanks for the input Erik and mchepp. I appreciate the perspective on how long to wait for change. I manage to get about 2 hours of practice in a day because I have a basement with a net, but I bet that's not what you consider to be "a lot" since you're a pro.

No, that's a lot . I'm surprised, but kids do sleep, so I guess it's possible. :)

At a minimum, I'm not going to proceed with the TGM instructor. I'm glad I posted here to get some knowledgable input. Thanks for that....I think I might go back to giving evlvor a try and contacting Rob about coordinating some in person visits every 3 to 4 months. Getting together even every 4 to 6 weeks is a bit tricky for the next year or two--long story as to why.

Okey dokey.

[scopek]

No, that's a lot. I'm surprised, but kids do sleep, so I guess it's possible. :)

Okey doke

I'm kinda of obsessed...Yes, about 30 to 45 minutes every morning before my daughter wakes up and about 1 to 1.5 hours after she goes to bed. It's sometimes a bit less or more. Also, having a net in my basement really helps. I'm also including stretching and warm up time in this. I couldn't do that much if I had to go to the range every time to hit balls.

[mvmac]

Thanks for the input.

I tried a lesson with a TGM AI a few weeks ago. He had me working on something called "impact fixed" at address. This is basically setting up with the right forearm on the same plane as the club shaft. The instructor said that this is where my right forearm should be at impact, so why not just set up there? I've been working on this, but it continues to feel very uncomfortable as I'm used to a standard address position. Also, he's had me concentrate on moving my right shoulder down plane and focusing in on the right arm action and keeping the left arm as passive as possible. Impact, he said, should be with the club shaft on plane with the right forearm. He also wants me to establish the right flying wedge as soon as possible and hold that throughout the swing.

Does this sound legit?

Putting the right forearm on "plane" at address means that the right elbow will have significantly more bend at address than if the arms were to just to hang naturally. This can prevent the elbow from bending incrementally in the backswing which prevents the left wrist from hinging incrementally as well. This can lead to the club head being taken away too far inside the hands on the backswing.

One more thing, if there is too much bend in the right elbow at address, most players will continue to flex the right arm on the backswing, leading to over-flexed arms where the golfer has to lift them independently of the pivot.

So....don't do that