Should I blame the clubs/shafts for a push?

[klund]

i would check your lie angle.

i pushed a lot of shots with my 7 iron a while back and had the lie checked and it was way flat compared to the rest of the set.

generally too flat will push to upright will pull.

[leo3]

Perhaps swinging out of your shoes to achieve a 104 mph swing speed with a 5 iron is causing your inability to control the direction of your shots.

[hpr3]

perhaps this video will help. http://www.golf.com/video/stop-hitting-push-shots

[mdl]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Having shafts that are too weak will cause you to hit pulls or hooks

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

With a stiffer shaft, the shaft will whip too early and get to the ball while the path/face is still pointed to the right and would cause you to hit a pull/hook.

Like @moparman said.  It's nice to know that it's impossible to hit pushes or slices because a shaft is too weak or too stiff.

It's also cool that you're telling me what I've directly experienced didn't actually happen to me.  Good to know I should go find a shrink who can tell me why I've hallucinated the push slice I've hit with a regular flex driver every single time I've swung one, only to suddenly stop hallucinating the push slice when I switch back to a stiff flex driver.

[LuciusWooding]

Just for the record, my swing speed with the 5 iron is in the low 90s. I can get it over 100, but only by swinging out of my shoes. Obviously, I don't see the need to swing that hard and expect solid contact, but low 90s is well within my capabilities. I don't need to take a long backswing or make a big weight shift to swing in the 90s, and I can make good contact consistently. If I were spraying the ball, I wouldn't be posting; this was a consistent miss and a number of balls would land in a 5 yard circle off my line.

[mdl]

On the actual question from the OP, I'd just second the rec to get the lie angle checked.  That's definitely caused push/pull problems for me before.

[LuciusWooding]

Update: got to the range today, the push was mitigated a bit, and I'd say it's a playable miss now. Probably down to 15 yards or less, and still consistent. When I had a bit more leg action and tried to finish high, as well as trying to close the face a bit, I hit a straight and penetrating shot, but still either a slight push or fade. When I focused on just hitting the ball hard I had my best results, which gave me some confidence.

What was interesting is that when I hit my 5 iron and 4 irons off a tee, I hit it a bit straighter; but the tees were on black rubber mats that worked better than any lie board; there was a clear accumulation of marks on the toe end. I use a static fitting in my irons, and the lie is already +1, so I'm thinking I either need to add a little length, or adjust the lies by about 1-2 degrees.

Trying to get my strikes with the toe slightly up resulted in either fat shots or shanks, or blading the ball. Clearly, my irons do not wish to be hit that way...

On the plus side, I didn't have much trouble with my driver; I hit a straight and penetrating shot, and only mishits went right. Trying to work the ball up or left resulted in bad shots, though.

I think my problem is a combination of extra "toe down" from the shaft flex and my lie angle being a bit flat. The great thing about range balls is that they showed I was making good contact, since they leave tons of ball marks.

So since I've narrowed the problem down, I think I might spend the money on a mizuno iron fitting. I can't afford it right now, but I think the fact that there are 2 variables that I need to check means that I need to ensure I get it right. The problem in the end is that the club isn't evenly soled at impact, and it's the effective lie that causes it. I also believe that a fade is a more natural flight for me, so I guess I'll live with it. There's comfort in being able to aim down the left side of the fairway and hit as hard as I can, and not risk a hook.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by LuciusWooding

As a result, I went from (what I thought was) mid-high 70s on my 5 iron to about mid to high 80s. Generally I found that swinging harder and more aggressively, coupled with good body action, gave me a better and more repeatable swing. I found that the advice suggesting smooth tempo and timing is great, but it doesn't mean slow tempo. So I got a more inside out swing, shallow angle of attack, and a respectable swing speed. I also got better at bottoming out right where I wanted, so I expected to be a lot better and more consistent when I hit balls, right?

Just tossing out my experience, please disregard if it doesnt apply to your situation.

I spent a few months doing the routine of changing my grip, changing my stance, getting the left arm straight, changing the grip again, speeding my swing up, slowing it down, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Many of these changes came by suggestions and advice of different people and articles and pretty much ALL of them ended up with slicing, hooking, pushes and pulls, fat shots, thin shots and a overwhelming desire to toss the whole goddam bag into the pond.

Everytime I got back to the basics and forgot all that cereal filler my ball would start flying straight again.

Heres what *I* have noticed.

When I push its because my hands got too far ahead of the clubface at impact and the face was open.

When  pull its because the clubface got too far ahead of my hands at impact and the face was closed.

The ONLY thing *I* do to keep from pushing and pulling is work at getting the timing right at impact and making sure my hands are not too far ahead or behind the ball.

Now, for sure, someone will disagree with my assessment of pushing and pulling, but if you ever in my area (central Ohio) let me know and we can run out to the range and I can show you exactly what I mean.

MY suggestion is that if you push the ball, trying to keep your hands from getting too far ahead of the club at impact. If you are pulling, try to keep the clubface from getting too far ahead of your hands at impact.

*for me*, not saying a thing about anyone else here, this works EVERY single time. I rarely push or pull much anymore and I dont see a fade/slice or draw/hook at all since working on the timing and position at impact.

[LuciusWooding]

I learned not to take unsolicited advice early on, and I refrained from throwing my bag into ponds so far. I think I probably have to just stop trying to fix the problem. It's not as bad as I originally thought, anyway.

I just cleaned the ball marks off my clubs, and I have to say, my ballstriking was pretty okay. When I worried more about solid contact than working it left, I made more good shots than bad, once you get past the ball starting and/or leaking right a few yards. Working it high and low with irons went ok, and I didn't hit it thin often, which is my usual miss.

All in all, I was glad to hit some damn balls for the first time in a while. They were range rocks, so I can't put too much stock into how they flew.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

Just tossing out my experience, please disregard if it doesnt apply to your situation.

I spent a few months doing the routine of changing my grip, changing my stance, getting the left arm straight, changing the grip again, speeding my swing up, slowing it down, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Many of these changes came by suggestions and advice of different people and articles and pretty much ALL of them ended up with slicing, hooking, pushes and pulls, fat shots, thin shots and a overwhelming desire to toss the whole goddam bag into the pond.

Everytime I got back to the basics and forgot all that cereal filler my ball would start flying straight again.

Heres what *I* have noticed.

When I push its because my hands got too far ahead of the clubface at impact and the face was open.

When  pull its because the clubface got too far ahead of my hands at impact and the face was closed.

The ONLY thing *I* do to keep from pushing and pulling is work at getting the timing right at impact and making sure my hands are not too far ahead or behind the ball.

Now, for sure, someone will disagree with my assessment of pushing and pulling, but if you ever in my area (central Ohio) let me know and we can run out to the range and I can show you exactly what I mean.

MY suggestion is that if you push the ball, trying to keep your hands from getting too far ahead of the club at impact. If you are pulling, try to keep the clubface from getting too far ahead of your hands at impact.

*for me*, not saying a thing about anyone else here, this works EVERY single time. I rarely push or pull much anymore and I dont see a fade/slice or draw/hook at all since working on the timing and position at impact.

Pushes and pulls are caused by path, not by the clubface being open.  With an open/closed clubface but a straight path, the ball will start straight and then spin in one direction or the other.  Honestly, until he posts up a video of his swing, we cant honestly say one way or the other.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Pushes and pulls are caused by path, not by the clubface being open.  With an open/closed clubface but a straight path, the ball will start straight and then spin in one direction or the other.

I hope to all that is good and righteous in the world that you're being sarcastic or facetious.

In case that's not clear to others, WI's understanding is wrong .

[mvmac]

Face is a tool of projection and the ball curves away from the path

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by iacas

I hope to all that is good and righteous in the world that you're being sarcastic or facetious.

In case that's not clear to others, WI's understanding is wrong.

Well, sir, thats where we have to agree to disagree.  Every swing coach Ive ever worked with has taught that path determines where the ball starts and a close/open face dictates where the ball moves from there.

Ive tried playing with a strong and weak grip to change which direction the ball spins to, so Id have to agree with them based upon my personal experience.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Well, sir, thats where we have to agree to disagree.  Every swing coach Ive ever worked with has taught that path determines where the ball starts and a close/open face dictates where the ball moves from there.

Ive tried playing with a strong and weak grip to change which direction the ball spins to, so Id have to agree with them based upon my personal experience.

Do you disagree with trackman, flightscopes, radar, high speed camera footage and physics?

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Well, sir, thats where we have to agree to disagree.  Every swing coach Ive ever worked with has taught that path determines where the ball starts and a close/open face dictates where the ball moves from there.

Ive tried playing with a strong and weak grip to change which direction the ball spins to, so Id have to agree with them based upon my personal experience.

Did you even read the link in iacas's post?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by TitleistWI

Well, sir, thats where we have to agree to disagree.  Every swing coach Ive ever worked with has taught that path determines where the ball starts and a close/open face dictates where the ball moves from there.

Unfortunately, you can't really agree to disagree about facts. This is not an opinion.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by iacas

Unfortunately, you can't really agree to disagree about facts. This is not an opinion.

Yeah, Wi check out the link.  A majority of teaching pros get it wrong.  Think about it, if you're hitting a putt and have the face wide open at impact and the path is left, where is the ball going to go?  Same thing with hitting shots, face is the biggest contributor to start direction.

Ask Ron Burgandy

[newtogolf]

In defense of Wi I had never heard of the new ball flight laws until I joined this site.  I recently stopped working with my current instructor because he was adament that the old laws were right and the new laws were "mumbo jumbo" made up by those "S&T; guys to sell books".

Originally Posted by mvmac

Yeah, Wi check out the link.  A majority of teaching pros get it wrong.  Think about it, if you're hitting a putt and have the face wide open at impact and the path is left, where is the ball going to go?  Same thing with hitting shots, face is the biggest contributor to start direction.