Good Golf Posture (How to Address the Golf Ball)

[carrx]

I know Dana, he teaches at my home course (El Dorado).  I haven't taken any lessons with him, but in all my interactions with him he's shown himself to be a nice guy.

[WUTiger]

I'm going to share why I feel that information is wrong and can be harmful to your body.  According to this Tilteist Performance Institute(TPI) Article

Quote:

Lower back pain is one of the most common complaints of all golfers. This is usually due to the high velocity rotary forces that are applied upon the lumbar spine during the golf swing.  Some golfers actually put themselves into this position on purpose because they heard it was good to stick their butt out at set up. Unfortunately, if you arch your back to stick your butt out at set up, you are also putting your lower back in jeopardy of being injured.

The Lower Crossed Syndrome / “S-Posture”:

One of the most clinically relevant patterns of muscle dysfunction is a lower crossed syndrome. Simply stated, the lower crossed syndrome is a grouping of weak muscles combined with overactive or tight muscles, that create a predictable movement pattern in the lower back that can lead to injury.

TPI really emphasizes this point in their individual workout routines.

I got a Titleist Performance Institute swing analysis last summer, and am now in phase 2 of workout routines. One problem area has been lower back stiffness (need more flexibility to stay "down" on followthrough). Here are the video clips of two of the exercises. Both advise you to have a flat back (no exaggerated butt sticking out).

Prone Walkout

I need technical help on how to embed videos. My first try didn't work. Will edit later after ST tech consult.

Torso Backswing in Neutral Pelvis (to avoid S-curve posture)

I overdid a lesson tip of "stick your butt over your heels", and had a sore back for my February efforts. Thanks to info in my new TPI exercise bloc, I have opted instead for "flat back" and the pain has largely gone away.

Good job, mvmac .

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by WUTiger

Prone Walkout

I need technical help on how to embed videos. My first try didn't work. Will edit later after ST tech consult.

Thanks, glad you like it.  Are the videos youtube or vimeo?

[Chanceman]

Gary Player says he imagines a steel rod along and through his spine which rotates about itself thus maintaining position and posture

[WUTiger]

Thanks, glad you like it.  Are the videos youtube or vimeo?

mvmac and all,

I asked the technical forum about the videos. iacas told me that it's not proper to post videos from a subscription portion of a webside, in this case the personal workout section of MyTPI.

So, here's a verbal description of the exercises mentioned last week:

Prone Walkout

Put Swiss ball under your chest. Walkout facedown, while stabilizing your core (no excessive arch in your lower back). Walkout as far as comfortable, pause, and then roll back to your starting position. Key to the prone walkout is to keep your back flat during this exercise.

Torso backswing in neutral pelvis

Get in a good 5-iron golf posture with your arms crossed over your shoulders. Start by finding a neutral pelvis; tilt your pelvis forward and backwards until you find the middle position and lock it in with your abs . Now, take a full backswing keeping your shoulder plane from flattening out at the top. From here, return to the setup position, once again with that neutral pelvis.

Overall message seems to be each golfer needs to find the right position where the hips and back are stable, but without exaggerating the butt "over the heels" idea.

[kathybhylton]

Good Posture and a best swing make a good golf game.

[IamChip]

Wow just read thus thread and it opened my eyes. I have a hardcore s curve. Maybe switching to flat back will give me some more ip turn and help straighten out my shot.

[outlaw1984]

ive been doing a little reading...when they say been at the hips i think its miss understood a lot of times....

Hogan showed this in 5 lessons and i think he did it well...although i didnt put this into act until today and had a ah hah moment....but imagine someone putting weight on your shoulders and you want to be able to support the weight.....so its not really bend from the hips as much as squat from the hips and then move your chest forward....this brings complete suction to the ground with your feet....

ill see if i can find the picture of this and post it...

[mvmac]

From another thread:

Originally Posted by Pablo68

Back at you..................what are the advantages of having a rounded back? (Tiger's is NOT rounded there btw)  If the Op sets up with a rounded back, he can hit it like Jack? Wow.........**runs off to range to try it**

This would be my response, note that he's viewing the ball out of his central vision

[Pablo68]

Tiger's back in both those are relatively straight. Not rounded...................His shoulders are lower than his spine but that's a function of reaching down for the club.

That's where the confusion lies I believe. In the thread about the OP's setup, his spine is quite rounded and his setup IN MY OPINION is not what I would call a good beginning. Thus I stand by my assertion that he should adopt a more athletic posture if he wants to give himself the easiest chance to get better.

My opinion may not be what you agree with so move on.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

Tiger's back in both those are relatively straight. Not rounded...................His shoulders are lower than his spine but that's a function of reaching down for the club.

Oh brother. It's rounded. It's not straight. There's a natural S-Curve in the lumbar and lower thoracic area that helps that part to appear straighter but it's not "straight" like we're taught or like we see from some golfers.

Originally Posted by Pablo68

That's where the confusion lies I believe. In the thread about the OP's setup, his spine is quite rounded and his setup IN MY OPINION is not what I would call a good beginning. Thus I stand by my assertion that he should adopt a more athletic posture if he wants to give himself the easiest chance to get better.

So you're just sharing your opinion without any real facts or even causations to back it up? In your opinion - and for no other reason you've stated -

Here's a good way of setting up:

You'll note: chin down back rounded gently, arms hanging back (shoulders are not retracted).

And a comparison of rounded vs. straight backs:

Also, it's not about your "opinion" - we just like it to be more than an opinion, with some logic and reasoning if not some fact or biomechanics or something else behind it. Just saying "because it's more athletic" or "looks better" or whatever else is not a reason.

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by iacas

Oh brother. It's rounded. It's not straight. There's a natural S-Curve in the lumbar and lower thoracic area that helps that part to appear straighter but it's not "straight" like we're taught or like we see from some golfers.

So you're just sharing your opinion without any real facts or even causations to back it up? In your opinion - and for no other reason you've stated -

Here's a good way of setting up:

You'll note: chin down back rounded gently, arms hanging back (shoulders are not retracted).

And a comparison of rounded vs. straight backs:

Also, it's not about your "opinion" - we just like it to be more than an opinion, with some logic and reasoning if not some fact or biomechanics or something else behind it. Just saying "because it's more athletic" or "looks better" or whatever else is not a reason.

lol @ comparing Tiger's wedge setup to someone's driver setup. Oh brother................

Guess when Tiger is using a longer club his back tends to get straighter............Those two could be brothers albeit from another mother.

Some guys have more mass on their backs (be it muscle or fat) and it just appears more rounded. Tiger's SPINE is relatively straight........although his back is VERY muscular and that's what you're seeing when he's setting up to that wedge shot; his muscles must follow his arms to reach down for that smaller club but his SPINE is relatively straight.

There are a lot of successful golfers whose backs appear rounded......but a lot of their SPINES are relatively straight.

And although Arnie is a very accomplished player, his swing is not one I'm going to emulate.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

lol @ comparing Tiger's wedge setup to someone's driver setup. Oh brother................

That's not a wedge. I believe Mike said it was a 7-iron. And your picture of Tiger is older.

Tiger has been moving towards a more rounded setup.

Mike and I have a bunch more, but that's enough. Furthermore, the use of one or even a few PGA Tour players is pointless. I could find an exception to the rule. Heck, I already did: look at Camilo above. Doesn't prove anything, and we've offered reasons. You've just said "it's my opinion."

Originally Posted by Pablo68

Some guys have more mass on their backs (be it muscle or fat) and it just appears more rounded. Tiger's SPINE is relatively straight........although his back is VERY muscular and that's what you're seeing when he's setting up to that wedge shot; his muscles must follow his arms to reach down for that smaller club but his SPINE is relatively straight.

Oh brother. Back fat? If that's the case, then maybe the guy whose thread started this just has more back fat than you're used to seeing. Give me a break.

Cheers, man.

[Pablo68]

My opinion that someone working on their swing should adopt an atheletic posture (with the SPINE straighter) is shared by a great many people including accomplished instructors with golfballs01 being one of them. As he stated, if golfers would condition themselves before swinging they most likely wouldn't have back issues.

Originally Posted by golfballs01

I teach a vast variety of skill levels as well as body types. When it is suggested that you should see the shoe laces or other tricks of the trade, one must keep in mind that these are generalized statements. Without instruction or pictures of one's self, a typical new player will arch their back significantly and be completely unaware of it. Looking back at the views of the different hitters, you can't help but notice the different body builds as well as other things. Even describing an athletic position is not an exact description. You will also notice that the more experienced players will be in a more upright position which makes it easier to turn and transfer weight. Most tour players are between 58 and 65 degrees upright depending on the club they're hitting, with a straight back. They don't stick their rear ends out excessively, they just have a straight back. They've memorized a correct position and they adhere to it. The more upright a person is, the less they have to contend with balance and the easier it is to perform the body movements. It's so easy to take a club, lay it against the back touching everything from the buttocks to the back of the head, then bend at the hips staying connected to the club, then while staying in that position, bring the club over in front of them. That is the position they should assume at address. The biggest problem that leads to the sore back as well as injuries is not warming up correctly or at all for that matter. I hit balls for 15 hours sometimes aggressively and at 52 years old, do just fine. It all comes down to being patient, stretching, and starting out slow. Preparing the muscles to perform certain actions makes all of the difference.

Christopher Warner

Master Teaching Professional

Draw all the lines you want around people's clothing, etc.......it means little because of people's body types. Start the line through the top of their head and down to their bottom.........if their torso (containing their spine) follows that line then their back IS relatively straight.

When I see people selling stuff and advocating a certain 'system' I'm taking their advice with a grain of salt.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

My opinion that someone working on their swing should adopt an atheletic posture (with the SPINE straighter) is shared by a great many people including accomplished instructors with golfballs01 being one of them. As he stated, if golfers would condition themselves before swinging they most likely wouldn't have back issues.

1. What makes a straight spine "athletic"? I contend that a gently rounded spine is more athletic.
2. "golfballs01" is an accomplished instructor? How do you know. For that matter, so am I. So is Dave Wedzik. So is Chuck Evans. So are many, many, many of the people with whom I work every day. That said, "an accomplished instructor" means nothing, as Nick Faldo and Butch Harmon don't even know what makes the ball fly the way it does.
3. A gently rounded back will not lead to back "issues," and hinting at such is stupid.

I've given you a few chances to explain yourself. You keep saying things like "it's more athletic" without actually saying how or what makes it "more athletic." Take whatever you want with a grain of salt. But you seem to be lapping up the "straight back" posts like it's water and you've been wandering the desert for a few days.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

My opinion that someone working on their swing should adopt an atheletic posture (with the SPINE straighter) is shared by a great many people including accomplished instructors with golfballs01 being one of them. As he stated, if golfers would condition themselves before swinging they most likely wouldn't have back issues.

Draw all the lines you want around people's clothing, etc.......it means little because of people's body types. Start the line through the top of their head and down to their bottom.........if their torso (containing their spine) follows that line then their back IS relatively straight.

When I see people selling stuff and advocating a certain 'system' I'm taking their advice with a grain of salt.

Not sure how the posture is part of a system when we can show you many different players from different eras with curvature in their cervical spine.

I guess we have different definitions of what we are talking about.  Is the golfer on the left an example of a more ideal position than the golfer on the right? Or are both spines straight in your opinion?

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by iacas

What makes a straight spine "athletic"? I contend that a gently rounded spine is more athletic.

"golfballs01" is an accomplished instructor? How do you know. For that matter, so am I. So is Dave Wedzik. So is Chuck Evans. So are many, many, many of the people with whom I work every day. That said, "an accomplished instructor" means nothing, as Nick Faldo and Butch Harmon don't even know what makes the ball fly the way it does.

A gently rounded back will not lead to back "issues," and hinting at such is stupid.

I've given you a few chances to explain yourself. You keep saying things like "it's more athletic" without actually saying how or what makes it "more athletic." Take whatever you want with a grain of salt. But you seem to be lapping up the "straight back" posts like it's water and you've been wandering the desert for a few days.

This discussion is really pointless.

1. What's your proof that the rounded spine is more atheletic? " I contend ".................. that's your opinion . In a lot of sports, you assume a ready position that includes a relatively straight spine; hence the atheltic position.

2. How do I know golfball01 is an accomplished instructor? Same reason I'm to assume you are; because you put yourself out there here as an authority. As you point out about Butch and Faldo; just because you have people paying you money for something doesn't make you right. It just makes you a good salesman .

3. I didn't hint it would lead to back issues nor did golfballs01. Quote: "That is the position they should assume at address. The biggest problem that leads to the sore back as well as injuries is not warming up correctly or at all for that matter." That was in relation to people playing with a straighter spine and not being conditioned properly. Calling either of us stupid for your misreading something is quite telling and frankly out of line.

Lapping at the straight back posts like it's water and I've been wandering in the desert? Nope; I'm just not buying what you're selling. Especially given the personal jabs at those who'd disagree with you or this theory.

From the original post in this thread:

"We’ve all been told to stick our butt out at address, yet when over done , it impinges the spine and the body’s ability to rotate."

When over done, your rounded spine will cause as many if not more problems than a straight spine. ANYTHING over done will cause problems; that's the hard part about golf. We take a pill for our swing in the form of an adjustment, see results then take the rest of the bottle.

Just as you use 'gently rounded' I use relatively straight. Neither are advocating extremes.

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Not sure how the posture is part of a system when we can show you many different players from different eras with curvature in their cervical spine.

I guess we have different definitions of what we are talking about.  Is the golfer on the left an example of a more ideal position than the golfer on the right? Or are both spines straight in your opinion?

The guy on the right looks to be a bit taller therefore needs to be more bent over to reach the club. His hands are almost at his knees.

The guy on the left is a bit extreme in my opinion on keeping his head 'up' as well as a tad too upright.

To me it's easier to align my body parallel to the target if my back is relatively straight. Rounding my back seems to cause alignment problems with my shoulders.