Ground under repair limits

[Golfingdad]

Scenario:  My approach shot to the green landed at point "A" which looked like ground under repair and was labeled as such with a couple of stakes.  However, the area was not clearly defined with a line of any kind so I had to guess as to where it ended.  (The dotted area is my guesstimation of what "looked" like GUR)  Since area B and area C were roughly the same distance away from my ball, my dilemma would become somewhat of an ethical one because from area C I had a fairly easy pitch with a nice backstop behind the hole and from B I had a virtual guarantee of not keeping my ball on the green, so obviously I want to choose C.

How do you determine the nearest point of relief out of Ground Under Repair when the area in question is not clearly marked?.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

How do you determine the nearest point of relief out of Ground Under Repair when the area in question is not clearly marked?.

Well I don't think you really can in a tournament.  In a tournament I would try and get a ruling.  If playing casually, I'd give it your best guess.  Looking at your diagram, it looks like the nearest point of relief might have been a point on the cart path, not B or C.  After dropping on the cart path, you would have a new situation which you would then deal with, relief from an obstruction.  You would then drop under the obstruction rule if you wanted relief.  I also see flower beds which could also be defined by a local rule.  Sometimes when GUR is connected to a Cart path, under local rule the GUR is considered part of the cart path and deemed to be part of the obstruction.

[Golfingdad]

Wow, there is a lot to think about with some of these rules.  That is incentive enough to keep it in the fairway and on the green, so as not to have to stress over these things.

That cart path is concrete with curbs on both sides (actually a short wall on the flowerbed side) and slopes up from the fairway.  It is a guarantee that if, on your drop, the ball didn't bounce back into the GUR, it would roll 20 yards down the hill.  It's obvious that will happen, so are you still required to go through the process of dropping on the cart path, then placing on the path, then taking relief from the path?  (Assuming the local rule you mentioned was not in effect)

I know the flowerbeds are off limits so after all is said and done, I will either end up at B or C, right?  If its a tournament without a rules official present at the time, do I just play from both spots and ask later?

[Dormie1360]

I think you pretty much have it. While taking a drop from the GUR, you would probably end up placing the ball on the cart path.  Given the flowers are off limits, the NPR from the cart path might very well be back in the GUR although not at point A .  In the end you might wind up by B or C anyway.  And yes you can always play two balls.  You could play your original ball as it lies in the GUR, do your relief options and play a second ball from there.  Report the facts when you turn in your score card.

One thing about playing two balls, before you do anything with the original ball, announce that you are going to play 2 balls AND specify which ball you want to count if the rules allow.

[Golfingdad]

Thanks John.  I just noticed your profile pic says Lake Forest CC; I live in Lake Forest ...... California.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Wow, there is a lot to think about with some of these rules.  That is incentive enough to keep it in the fairway and on the green, so as not to have to stress over these things.

That cart path is concrete with curbs on both sides (actually a short wall on the flowerbed side) and slopes up from the fairway.  It is a guarantee that if, on your drop, the ball didn't bounce back into the GUR, it would roll 20 yards down the hill.  It's obvious that will happen, so are you still required to go through the process of dropping on the cart path, then placing on the path, then taking relief from the path?  (Assuming the local rule you mentioned was not in effect)

I know the flowerbeds are off limits so after all is said and done, I will either end up at B or C, right?  If its a tournament without a rules official present at the time, do I just play from both spots and ask later?

The tournament committee should be ashamed of themselves for allowing such an issue to arise  in the first place.  It takes very little to send a member out with a can of white spray paint and mark any such areas clearly.  I play my competitions on a public course, yet we still send one of our members out to mark the course about 4 or 5 times a season, and particularly when the previous marks are starting to fade.  Our course holds not only our Men's Club tournaments, but we do sectional PAT tournaments, and high school matches and tournaments.  There are almost never any disputes about location of the margins of hazards or GUR.  Any such disputes usually come up because of ignorance of the rules by an individual player, not because of poor course marking.

That said, it a tournament setting, the rule procedure should be followed as closely as possible in a case like this where there are multiple relief situations.  You should make the drop on the cart path if that is the correct spot from the NP. , Then if placing is necessary after a redrop, place the ball on the spot on the cart path, locate the nearest point of relief from there and follow the rest of the process.  If that puts you back in the GUR then Decision 1-4/8 comes into play:

Quote:

1-4/8

Nearest Point of Relief from Cart Path Is in Casual Water; Nearest Point of Relief from Casual Water Is Back on Cart Path

Q. A player's ball lies on a paved cart path from which he wishes to take relief under Rule 24-2b(i) . It appears that the nearest point of relief will be in a large area of casual water which adjoins the cart path and the nearest point of relief from the casual water under Rule 25-1b(i) would be back on the cart path. What are the player's options?

A. The player may proceed in accordance with Rule 24-2 and then, if applicable, Rule 25-1 . He is not entitled to take relief from both the immovable obstruction and the casual water in a single procedure, unless after proceeding under these Rules, the player is essentially back where he started and it is evident that such a procedure is necessary to obtain relief from both conditions.

Therefore, the player should proceed as follows:

1. He may lift and drop the ball in accordance with Rule 24-2b(i) in the casual water.

2. He may play the ball as it lies or take relief from the casual water, in which case he would lift and drop the ball in accordance with Rule 25-1b(i) .

3. If the ball when dropped comes to rest in such a position that there is interference by the cart path, he may play the ball as it lies or proceed in accordance with Rule 24-2b(i) . If the nearest point of relief is in the casual water, as an additional option, the player may, in equity (Rule 1-4 ) obtain relief without penalty as follows: Using the new position of the ball on the cart path, the nearest point of relief from both the cart path and the casual water shall be determined which is not in a hazard or on a putting green. The player shall lift the ball and drop it within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief, on a part of the course which avoids interference by the cart path and the casual water and is not in a hazard or on a putting green.

If the dropped ball rolls into a position where there is interference by either the cart path or the casual water, Rule 20-2c applies.

The same principle would apply if there was interference from any two conditions, i.e., casual water, a hole made by a burrowing animal, an immovable obstruction, from which relief without penalty was available and in taking relief from one condition it resulted in interference from the second condition.

Ain't golf fun????

[robrey85]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The tournament committee should be ashamed of themselves for allowing such an issue to arise  in the first place.  It takes very little to send a member out with a can of white spray paint and mark any such areas clearly.  I play my competitions on a public course, yet we still send one of our members out to mark the course about 4 or 5 times a season, and particularly when the previous marks are starting to fade.  Our course holds not only our Men's Club tournaments, but we do sectional PAT tournaments, and high school matches and tournaments.  There are almost never any disputes about location of the margins of hazards or GUR.  Any such disputes usually come up because of ignorance of the rules by an individual player, not because of poor course marking.

That said, it a tournament setting, the rule procedure should be followed as closely as possible in a case like this where there are multiple relief situations.  You should make the drop on the cart path if that is the correct spot from the NP. , Then if placing is necessary after a redrop, place the ball on the spot on the cart path, locate the nearest point of relief from there and follow the rest of the process.  If that puts you back in the GUR then Decision 1-4/8 comes into play:

Ain't golf fun????

My brain is practically fried from reading and comprehending. I'm tempted to get a lawyer to clarify it, lol.

[stangmark]

Dropping at C would have been a loss of hole in match play, 2-stroke penalty in stroke play.

In golf, the ball must be played as it lies in it's final at rest position, unless taking relief.  When taking relief, in this case from ground under repair, first mark your ball (you may now clean it if you like, unless taking relief from a hazard).  Then determine which club you would use from the original lie, if it was to be played (i.e., likely your chipping iron from A) and lay it 90 degrees or more (never closer to the hole) to the pin.  Never remove the marker for your original lie until you've determined the nearest point of relief.  Take your line to the right until you've gained one club length of relief for stance and swing, and place a mark.  Take your line to the left until you've gained one club length (still the original club) and make a mark (tees normally).  Whichever mark is closest to A is your nearest point of relief.  If those flower beds are considered a part of the course (which they normally are---local rules may hold different stipulations for ball in the flower beds) and your nearest point of relief was in them, you would have to drop in the bed and play it as it lies (D or E below) or declare it unplayable and take two club lengths relief, plus a penalty (plus a stroke for each additional two clubs to get out of the beds).  After all is said and done you take your drop standing directly behind your nearest point of relief marker perpendicular to the pin.  After your round you politely inform the course manager that the area was unclearly marked and you failed to observe a drop zone (which there normally is for this type of situation near the green.  When a drop zone is marked off, you always take your drop there, regardless of where your nearest point of relief may have been.

So, a lot to explain so little:)

If you were just dying to be lying below the pin you could claim the cart path as your initial nearest point of relief, and then take relief from the path, but F below is the best you can do (again, as long as the beds are out of play).

Just remember, if where you drop is closer to the pin than where you started, or farther away from where you could have dropped (even though less desirable), your cheating.  I'd've taken B rather than play over the sand at F, and if B and C really were both equidistant and neither advanced my ball, take the more difficult play---then there is no doubt.

[stangmark]

Apologies, none of my drawings went through.  Lie F would have been behind the bed and to the right of the path.  Ah well.

[Golfingdad]

Bumping my own thread with a new, sort-of related question ...

Does ground under repair have to be labeled to be considered ground under repair?  I assume it does, right?

I had a situation the other day where my ball came to rest just off the fairway in an area that was certainly under repair, but was not marked at all.  There was a big patch, maybe 10' wide by 30' long, where they had fairly recently laid down new sod.  My ball came to rest EXACTLY IN the seam between the new sod and the old sod.  (new sod directly behind the ball)  And the new sod was not blended in very well, so it was basically half buried in a crevice between the edge of the new sod and the old grass.  (I would have taken a photo but my phone was in the cart and Beachcomber was farting around with it in the fairway bunker across the way ;))

The course had lots of areas marked GUR, and since this wasn't, I went ahead and played it where it was.  Was not expecting to make great contact, so I swung hard, yet made good contact, and flew over the green and ended up with a bogey after my longest drive of the day.

I'm pretty sure I played it right, and that's just a tough luck situation, but figured I'd get clarification in case this comes up in a tournament someday. :)

[Asheville]

Bumping my own thread with a new, sort-of related question ...

Does ground under repair have to be labeled to be considered ground under repair?  I assume it does, right?

I had a situation the other day where my ball came to rest just off the fairway in an area that was certainly under repair, but was not marked at all.  There was a big patch, maybe 10' wide by 30' long, where they had fairly recently laid down new sod.  My ball came to rest EXACTLY IN the seam between the new sod and the old sod.  (new sod directly behind the ball)  And the new sod was not blended in very well, so it was basically half buried in a crevice between the edge of the new sod and the old grass.  (I would have taken a photo but my phone was in the cart and Beachcomber was farting around with it in the fairway bunker across the way ;))

The course had lots of areas marked GUR, and since this wasn't, I went ahead and played it where it was.  Was not expecting to make great contact, so I swung hard, yet made good contact, and flew over the green and ended up with a bogey after my longest drive of the day.

I'm pretty sure I played it right, and that's just a tough luck situation, but figured I'd get clarification in case this comes up in a tournament someday. :)

Generally, GUR must be marked as such. However, the much under-appreciated benefit of Rule 3-3 (assuming you're playing stroke play) is that you may play a second ball. Then when you get to the clubhouse, you seek out the "committee" who often is the lone guy in the pro shop and ask him to rule on this unmarked GUR. Proper application of 3-3 does require that you know how it works ... but, everyone who plays for a score would be well advised to learn the procedure.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Bumping my own thread with a new, sort-of related question ...

Does ground under repair have to be labeled to be considered ground under repair?  I assume it does, right?

I had a situation the other day where my ball came to rest just off the fairway in an area that was certainly under repair, but was not marked at all.  There was a big patch, maybe 10' wide by 30' long, where they had fairly recently laid down new sod.  My ball came to rest EXACTLY IN the seam between the new sod and the old sod.  (new sod directly behind the ball)  And the new sod was not blended in very well, so it was basically half buried in a crevice between the edge of the new sod and the old grass.  (I would have taken a photo but my phone was in the cart and Beachcomber was farting around with it in the fairway bunker across the way ;))

The course had lots of areas marked GUR, and since this wasn't, I went ahead and played it where it was.  Was not expecting to make great contact, so I swung hard, yet made good contact, and flew over the green and ended up with a bogey after my longest drive of the day.

I'm pretty sure I played it right, and that's just a tough luck situation, but figured I'd get clarification in case this comes up in a tournament someday. :)

This would necessitate invoking the following specimen local rule:

Quote:

e. Seams of Cut Turf

If a Committee wishes to allow relief from seams of cut turf, but not from the cut turf itself, the following Local Rule is recommended:

“Through the green, seams of cut turf (not the turf itself) are deemed to be ground under repair. However, interference by a seam with the player’s stance is deemed not to be, of itself, interference under Rule 25-1 . If the ball lies in or touches the seam or the seam interferes with the area of intended swing, relief is available under Rule 25-1 . All seams within the cut turf area are considered the same seam.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:

Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.”

[Rulesman]

Where do you get this from? It is not correct.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by stangmark  first mark your ball (you may now clean it if you like, unless taking relief from a hazard).

Where do you get this from? It is not correct.

Don't you just love some of the crazy things people come up with.  He states that with absolute certainty, yet it's completely wrong.  I'd say that 90% of the time they got it by word of mouth, which is probably the worst way to learn anything about the rules.  A buddy says it with absolute conviction, and you've never known this buddy to make such a statement if he wasn't sure, so you believe it, not realizing that your buddy is as clueless as you are.