Are most amateur golfers being mislead on how to swing?

[Patrick57]

Hello johnclayton ,

Quote:

The Original Poster is clearly trying to promote something.  Regardless, I think the question of "should you emulate the pros" is a really good one.  Hence why i posted, and I think it is interesting.  Should you try to swing like the pros?  Or should you keep it "simpler" ?  I'd like to hear thoughts on these questions from people better at golf than I am.

Will someone tell me exactly what it is I am trying to promote. The impact bag is as old as old. I am not selling anything. I do not have a website.

I am glad you did refer to the point of my OP. I would also like to hear thoughts on this.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I said my swing was natural, not perfect. I also said that amateurs shouldn't try to swing like pros (and I mean touring pros).

I think "natural" sounds great but doesn't mean much. Pros don't have "perfect" swings either, and my swing isn't perfect, nor the swings of my students, but they all adhere to the same basic principles of geometry and physics.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Is this a discussion forum or a critics haven?

It's a discussion forum. I asked you some questions, and instead of responding to them - you know, discussing - you're doing this.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Why do you seem to think I was describing my ordinary swing as perfect?

Why do you keep using the word "perfect"? I didn't use that word.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

"It's nice to be nice."

Everyone's being nice.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

The iagas guy definitely has something wrong with his big head analysing my modest swing and calling it imperfect.

Sarcastic clown

I take that back. You're not being nice. I don't appreciate having words put in my mouth. I didn't use the words "perfect" or "imperfect." Yet you've now called me big-headed and a sarcastic clown. Cool it.

I asked you some very simple questions that you've as yet not answered.

Originally Posted by Patrick57

I'd love to see his perfect swing.

My swing's available for anyone to see. I've gotten results from students, have written thousands of instructional posts here that many people enjoy, like, and have put to good use in their own game, and so on. I'm fairly comfortable with my place in the game in terms of knowledge of the golf swing. :)

[walk18]

Hi MiniBlueDragon ,

I usually find the people that I meet for the first time are basically nice. The iagas guy definitely has something wrong with his big head analysing my modest swing and calling it imperfect.

Quote:

I have two questions.

1. In the image on the left, do you consider this a good impact position?

2. In the image on the right, is popping the ball up off the top of your driver acceptable?

Sarcastic clown

I'd love to see his perfect swing.

I've changed my single sentence concept...

"It must be nice to be perfect"

Anyway thanks for the kind explanation for the level of etiquette I should expect on this site.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

to be fair, you are flipping in the left photo and you are popping it up in the right photo. I promise I am as unbiased as they come but it's plain to see.

[Tomboys]

Geesh, are most amateur golfers being misled on how to swing?  Yes.  And, IMO, after reading the opening post of the OP, the misleading continues...

[Patrick57]

Hello iacas,

You love to disect my words don't you. And if you look back I did answer your questions.

Quote:

You said,

I think "natural" sounds great but doesn't mean much. Pros don't have "perfect" swings either, and my swing isn't perfect, nor the swings of my students, but they all adhere to the same basic principles of geometry and physics.

I breathe, walk, run, cycle etc etc etc naturally but God does these things perfectly. To me, Tiger, Rory, Freddy, Jack, Lee etc etc are Gods. Its nice to know that you teach using geometry and physics, that`s my problem, I didn't take them at school so I shouldn't be teaching or playing or writing about the golf swing.

Quote:

You said,

I'm fairly comfortable with my place in the game in terms of knowledge of the golf swing.

Are you teaching golf or adhering the basic principles of geometry and physics. Its about the only sport you can get away with saying that. Watched your video by the way, that's not your swing, its a kinda drill/demo where you jerk into an un natural finish. Why the strobe lighting?

So c'mon let us see your normal swing without all the drills. I prefer face on, you must have one.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

P.S. The video wasn't meant to be disected and my flipping was against the cushion and unfortunately I didn't flip with the ball. LoL

[iacas]

Patrick, good luck to you. I'm hopping off the crazy train.

P.S. Full swings - even from FO - pretty easy to find if you look for it.

[Patrick57]

Hi Tomboys ,

specifics please?

Sincerely yours

Patrick

[jamo]

There is for each individual only one natural way to swing correctly and endless ways to swing it incorrectly. So there are loads of ways to swing incorrectly but not loads of correct swings.

I disagree wholeheartedly. And how exactly do you define what someone's "natural" swing is? Is it the motion they made the first time they pick up a club? I doubt it, they would likely have seen golf played on TV. They've been influenced. What if we could find someone who has never seen golf played, give them a golf club, and tell them to hit it far and straight. Is that their "natural" swing? If it is I doubt it's the best swing they'll ever make. It won't be "correct."

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by Patrick57

Hi Tomboys,

specifics please?

Sincerely yours

Patrick

Swinging a golf club is not that hard.  Just pick it up and swing it.  Viola, your "natural" swing.  However, to be able to swing it so that the little white ball you're trying to hit goes relatively straight towards the target you're aiming for is a learned motion.  You tout resistance and stretching.  Great, wonderful.  But, many of the bad golfers I play with hit the ground before the ball.  How is resistance and stretching going to correct that?

[tristanhilton85]

I'll agree that most golf instruction these days is crap... but what you are suggesting is crap as well.  While each individual will have different nuances to their swing the major keys for a good golf swing remain the same, and I can tell you that flipping at impact and popping the ball up aren't some of those keys.  Your method may work well enough to teach how to play mediocre golf but nothing more.  And honestly, even the crap golf instruction that you describe can do that.  Individuals aren't going to progress past that if they don't learn the proper way to swing, bottom line.

[Shorty]

Quote:

OriI believe too many amateurs believe they should be swinging like the pros and too amny videos, books, magazines and coaches back up the idea.

You know what -

In 40 years of playing golf I have never met a player who thinks he should be trying to swing like a pro.

While I know lots of golfers with decent swings and high and low handicappers with both good and bad swings, I can sincerely say that none of them do anything other than swing the club their own way.

Everyone can improve , but you basically play the cards you're dealt.

Most golfers are aware that their game bears little resemblance tothat of a pro. Especially a famous PGA Tour star.

I agree that all the "instructional" stuff in magazines tends to be idotic "Rip it like Bubba" "Flop it like Phil" etc. etc.

In reality the average amateur/weekend player has no idea what his swing looks like, but isn't under the illusion that he swings it like Adam Scott.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by tristanhilton85

While each individual will have different nuances to their swing the major keys for a good golf swing remain the same, and I can tell you that flipping at impact and popping the ball up aren't some of those keys.

The modern swing is flawed from the start which dosnt help either.

[Lefty-Golfer]

jeez i was thinking this was going to be yet another stack/tilt mellow drama...instead well it is what it is...

[Patrick57]

Hello Jamo,

I think you have made the best point of all.

Quote:

You wrote,

And how exactly do you define what someone's "natural" swing is? Is it the motion they made the first time they pick up a club? I doubt it, they would likely have seen golf played on TV. They've been influenced.

What if we could find someone who has never seen golf played, give them a golf club, and tell them to hit it far and straight. Is that their "natural" swing? If it is I doubt it's the best swing they'll ever make. It won't be "correct."

Lions hunt naturally and it's a skill they develop. The very first time they did it, they were definitely not so good but with practice and watching their peers they got better. Their hunting skills would be described as being natural. As children we learn many natural motor skills, they certainly improve but do they ever become "correct."

The natural swing for golf can be compared to the natural swing we use with a hammer or more so with a big axe when chopping a tree. There are no superlatives for the hammer/axe swing, we just grab the thing and with practice get better and better. If you happen to have a mentor, he can assist in the learning process but only if he didn't get too much into the geometry and physics of the movements required - in my opinion.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

[Patrick57]

Hi tristanhilton,

my daughter plays off 3 and I know most of you will think she lives on the course. From the age of 8 to 12 she played about 3 times a week and took lessons from me a couple of times a week. From the age of 13 with a handicap of 4.4 she has more or less given up taking lessons with the odd 15 minute correction before a tournament.

She now only plays a couple of weeks of the year just before the club championship and then wins the thing. Last season she won the said stroke play championship with a scratch 75 and 73.

This is only one of my low single figure students. I am of the opinion that many more golfers can get to a single figure handicap but not with a knowledge of geometry or physics but with a more natural approach to learning the game.

Sincerely yours

Patrick

[newtogolf]

It's a nice concept, but IMO swinging a golf club isn't a natural motion and ultimately you're just throwing another swing method out there that won't work for most people.  My golf club swing doesn't resemble a baseball swing, how I swing an axe or how I throw a ball underhanded which are all analogies I've heard for this natural swing idea.  Can most people hit a ball off a mat left to their own devices, given enough time and practice, yes.  Can most people hit a golf ball proficiently on a golf course left to their own devices, IMO again, not without a huge amount of time and practice.

I spend a lot of time at the range, and have seen scratch golfers (fun to watch) and kids and adults who have never swung a golf club.  The kids and adults that never swung a club don't have any natural reference on how to do it.  They either try to emulate someone else on the range or try to emulate the movements they use when swinging a baseball bat which usually includes too much hip and foot movement, a bent lead arm and an outside-in swing.  For every shot they make contact with the ball, they miss it 2 or 3 times or dribble one off the mat.  Even if they get to the point where they can hit it consistently, they have no control over distance or direction.  Place these people on a course with awkward lies, deep rough, sand and make them swing different clubs of varying length one after the other and I doubt you'll find that the majority of people will enjoy their experience.

As a relative newcomer to golf (2 years) and someone who has been athletic all their life, I am honest enough to admit golf is probably the most difficult sport I've ever played.  The other problem with golf is everyone is selling their own brand of magic in a book, dvd, training aide, or instruction.  Open up any golf magazine and you'll see influences from pro's and instructors who all have different opinions on set up, swing theory on the back swing and down swing.  You'll still see guys in the same magazine that don't agree on the ball flight laws.

If golf wants to gain in popularity there needs to be consensus on at least what the basics of the golf swing are.  I understand no two batters have the same exact batting stance and swing, but the fundamentals to get to the point where you customize the swing are there.  I've taken instruction with three different golf instructors over the past two years and all three have totally different swing philosophies.  They were all certified PGA teaching pro's, one was even a golf coach of a major university golf team.  How can three people become PGA certified instructors and completely disagree on everything?

If golf is going to gain in popularity, there needs to be a core set of fundamentals that all PGA certified golf instructors can agree upon that cover address, back swing, and downswing that gets a person to a level proficient enough to play a round of golf without wanting to throw their clubs in the lake.  After that they can decide if they want to develop their skills further by adopting a more specific swing theory or method.

[Phil McGleno]

Nobody said anything about the students or golfers knowing the geometry and physics just that a "good" golf swing adheres to the geometry and physics because they're not different for you or anyone else so long as you're playing in this universe where geometry and physics are constants.

If you want to compare hitting a golf ball to hitting a nail with a hammer be my guest but in my opinion one is about a thousand times more complex. How good are you at hitting a nail with a hammer that's 45 inches long and which requires you to be moving it at 100 MPH? If that's how we hammered nails you'd need lessons in that too you wouldn't just do it "naturally."

Originally Posted by Patrick57

This is only one of my low single figure students. I am of the opinion that many more golfers can get to a single figure handicap but not with a knowledge of geometry or physics but with a more natural approach to learning the game.

[Patrick57]

Hi Phil McGleno ,

Quote:

I wrote,

The natural swing for golf can be compared to the natural swing we use with a hammer or more so with a big axe when chopping a tree.

I just knew you were going go with the hammer, although I emphasised the big axe as a better comparison. If the forty-five inch hammer was light enough and the face was as big as my driver and the head of the nail was as big as a golf ball, and the nail and the hammer didn't have to stop in the wood, then why swing at 100 mph with the hammer. As it is, I have never come across such a hammer.

A better example is a longer axe used to chop a tree, near to the ground, which allows you to swing on a similar plane to golf. Although I have never chopped down a tree, I'm sure I could find a natural swing that would accomplish this task.

Quote:

You wrote

Nobody said anything about the students or golfers knowing the geometry and physics just that a "good" golf swing adheres to the geometry and physics because they're not different for you or anyone else so long as you're playing in this universe where geometry and physics are constants.

I'm sorry but many pros draw geometric lines and explain the physics of the swing during lessons and video analysis. I've never seen a lumberjack use science for his similar swing. With an axe we naturally swing on an accurate plane to our target, in golf we have so much custard in our heads we tend to swing on an unnatural plane to our target.

Sincerely yours

Patrick