Hitting out of hard "sand"

[Stretch]

If you havin' bunker issues I feel bad for you son. I got 99 problems but the beach ain't one.

Seriously though -- in hard, scratchy or thin bunkers you have to focus on using the leading edge rather than the bounce on the sole as you would in soft sand. Normal setup, weight forward, wide stance, hands low but then lean the shaft forward to take the bounce off. Same swing, just concentrate on putting the leading edge into the ground a little behind the ball. You'll take a little scrape of hardpan with you as you go through and the ball will come out low and spinny. Needs commitment and belief (that you won't, in fact, skull it 30 yards over the back). These will only come from practice.

[Patrick57]

Oh splash the bloomin' thing out!

[Old1964]

Originally Posted by iacas

I disagree, but who knows what he actually means by "hard sand." If it's still sand at all you can force the club down. Of course, you'll want to hit closer to the ball because there's only so long you can make the club go down, too.

I can use the bounce off hardpan (and taught a forum member to play the shots this way and he did awesome at it just yesterday).

What was the essence of your instruction in this case? How do you "use the bounce" off hardpan?

[Harmonious]

I think you would have more luck, and more consistency, using a wedge with less bounce than the usual 12-14* bounce sand wedge.  On really hardpacked sand, I've found that using my 60* wedge, with 8* bounce, allows me to skim underneath without worrying about "bouncing" and skulling the ball across the green.

If there is a whole lot of green, even using a PW works fine.  Just plan on more runout.

[MacGregor9]

There isn't a practice bunker at that course, so I can't practice there. I usually practice bunker shots at a nicer course that actually has one. I played at the smaller course just the other day, and when I was in the bunker, I took note of what happened. I hit it just like I do when I go to the nicer bunker and practice. The ball came out, but didn't go nearly as far. Also, the ball seems to roll more. I don't know if that's just my swing, or something to do with the sand. It just sucks when you get in the sand and you don't know what shot is going to come out. haha

@Stretch. I will try that next time I go. Never thought about dropping the hands and taking off a thing layer.

Thanks everyone for the replies.

[MacGregor9]

*Also, I should add. When my friend was in a bunker, he also came up short. I was thinking maybe the club could be getting caught on the harder sand, slowing the club speed down?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Old1964

What was the essence of your instruction in this case? How do you "use the bounce" off hardpan?

To be clear, when I say "use the bounce" I don't mean flip at it like crazy and lean the shaft backwards a bunch.

I simply mean avoid trying to jam the leading edge of the club down perfectly on the back of the ball. Because guess what? Miss a quarter inch thin and the ball's rocketing across the green. Miss it a quarter inch the other way (off hardpan, not off "hard sand") and the clubhead will rebound into the ball and, guess what, the ball is rocketing across the green once again.

I'm simply suggesting that you have the feeling of using more bounce. In reality if you deliver very little AoA and have the shaft leaning forward only slightly the bounce of the club engages and the club can skim just that little bit along the ground rather than rebounding off of it.

It has a lot more to do with the AoA than it does the actual bounce. When people attempt to use the leading edge or "chip" they hit down on the ball quite a bit. The natural "flipping" that occurs in a "pitch" motion done properly still delivers SOME shaft lean (takes off some bounce, but ideally not quite all of it) and shallows the AoA to only a couple degrees down.

[boogielicious]

So when in doubt about the sand, the safest bet is to use a pitch shot type motion?  I will definitely try it.  I have practiced your pitch shot method (via Evolvr instruction) off very hard surfaces and it does work well and has a good margin of error.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by boogielicious

So when in doubt about the sand, the safest bet is to use a pitch shot type motion?  I will definitely try it.  I have practiced your pitch shot method (via Evolvr instruction) off very hard surfaces and it does work well and has a good margin of error.

Bunker shots are generally just pitches, yes.

It's important to understand the condition of the sand. Soft sand will require a more sweeping motion (or else the club will not get out of the sand very easily), firm sand might require a bit less bounce (still bounce, just less) and a bit more of an aggressive downward strike (more vertical pickup, downswing), etc.

Basic motion is the same though.

[Zeph]

Understanding the principles of the bunker shot is crucial in my opinion. I used to hate bunkers since I didn't know how to get out of them. Then I read something on using the bounce (probably in here) and everything clicked. I don't pull it off everytime, but I don't fear bunkers anymore and I know exactly what to do and why. Same thing with the full swing too really. I know what to do and I know what's not working when I'm missing left, right or chunk it. Gives me confidence and makes me relax more on the course. Same thing goes with pitching. Until I learned how the bounce works, I dreaded the shots and caught it fat most of the time. Not my favourite shot today, but I manage.

[GaijinGolfer]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Understanding the principles of the bunker shot is crucial in my opinion. I used to hate bunkers since I didn't know how to get out of them. Then I read something on using the bounce (probably in here) and everything clicked. I don't pull it off everytime, but I don't fear bunkers anymore and I know exactly what to do and why. Same thing with the full swing too really. I know what to do and I know what's not working when I'm missing left, right or chunk it. Gives me confidence and makes me relax more on the course.

Same thing goes with pitching. Until I learned how the bounce works, I dreaded the shots and caught it fat most of the time. Not my favourite shot today, but I manage.

Yup, bounce is your friend.  It seems like everyone nowdays wants to play the ball back in their stance and hit down on it, thinking the spin is going to save them but thats a difficult shot to pull off on a regular basis.

[Zeph]

The spin you see professional players get on TV is caused by a proper bunker shot, so hitting it clean won't help you there. Of course swing fundamentals make a big difference, but the most important thing is to know what you are trying to do. On a trip which included a couple hours of instruction each day we had a bunker lesson. The other guys were around 18 to 30 handicap and didn't have a clue how to hit a bunker shot. After an hour in the bunker, most of them had it down pretty good. We were also shown how to get a buried ball out of the bunker. After 10 minutes, everyone wanted to stomp on their ball if they hit a bunker since it was so easy to get it out once they learned the proper technique. I usually have two things I focus on in a bunker shot. Where my eyes are and where the handle is. I want to look at where I want the club to strike the sand first and my handle to be wherever it needs to be. Not so far forward that it takes the leading edge into play, but not so far behind that I risk catching it thin or skulling it. I had a little epiphany when I started looking at the sand behind the ball instead of at the ball. Made things a lot easier. :-)

[poser]

My home course here has some of the hardest bunkers / lack of sand around here.  I setup like a normal bunker shot and just make a shorter back swing and follow through

[Old1964]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I usually have two things I focus on in a bunker shot. Where my eyes are and where the handle is. I want to look at where I want the club to strike the sand first and my handle to be wherever it needs to be. Not so far forward that it takes the leading edge into play, but not so far behind that I risk catching it thin or skulling it. I had a little epiphany when I started looking at the sand behind the ball instead of at the ball. Made things a lot easier.

For a greenside bunker with decent sand my friend taught me to lay the 58 wedge way open and focus on slapping the back of the blade behind the ball with a full follow-through...so, in essence, we look at the sand behind the ball and focus on the solid feel ("slap") about 2.5 inches behind the ball.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Old1964

For a greenside bunker with decent sand my friend taught me to lay the 58 wedge way open and focus on slapping the back of the blade behind the ball with a full follow-through...so, in essence, we look at the sand behind the ball and focus on the solid feel ("slap") about 2.5 inches behind the ball.

Unfortunately, for the OP, your method (which is fine for a regular bunker shot) will not work in hard-packed sand like he describes.  Laying a 58* sand wedge wide open will expose way too much bounce for the the type of shot needed here. This will often result in bouncing off the hardpacked sand, and skulling the ball over the green.

[MacGregor9]

@Zeph Do you remember the post or article you read about bounce? I'm no nothing about it, and would like to learn. Thanks.

[Zeph]

@Zeph Do you remember the post or article you read about bounce? I'm no nothing about it, and would like to learn. Thanks.

It was probably a couple different ones. http://thesandtrap.com/t/54554/sand-play-technique http://thesandtrap.com/b/bag_drop/wedge_bounce_and_grind_what_it_is_and_why_it_matters http://thesandtrap.com/t/39411/quickie-pitching-video - Pitching, not bunker shots, but the principle is somewhat similar on the bounce. http://thesandtrap.com/t/47906/pete-cowen-on-bunker-play Don't be afraid to use the wrists, they are helping you. Wrist cock give you speed without having a take a long and fast swing. You want the shaft leaning backwards at impact. How much depends on what kind of sand you are hitting out of and the characteristics of your club. And make sure you look at where you want the club to hit the sand, behind the ball, not at the ball itself. Best bunker player on tour knows how it works. [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwhTwIMu2LU[/VIDEO] [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvXiKPDEUdM[/VIDEO] [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3fDVvaIC5w[/VIDEO]

[nevets88]

That's what I thought...

Originally Posted by Paradox

trying to use the bounce on really hard sand is a great way to blade the shot and leave it in the bunker or fly it well over the green.

I just took a short game lesson from Erik and am the aforementioned student. Before Erik showed me how to use the bounce on hard packed sand, I would use the leading edge to nip the ball. I got out of hard packed sand alright, some times 10-20-30(ouch) yards too far - these weren't bladed, but your stock SW shot. Boom, double bogey. Which is why I asked him for the lesson.

Originally Posted by Paradox

you disagree that its easy to end up blading the ball by using bounce on hard sand(what I'm picturing in my mind is that there really is only a dusting of sand over dirt...aka no sand to scoop through.

Its possible to hit a shot with bounce from the hardest of lies but the precision needed isn't something most amateurs have enough of to do it consistently.  Why not play the safer, easier shot?

I opened up the face, got down very low and pictured the bounce hitting the sand rather than the leading edge. It worked like a charm, did it twice in a row. I envisioned a big thump. Of course, I'll need to practice more to figure out swing effort and corresponding distances, but this is much safer. It worked on hardpan too. When I get a chance, looking forward to trying it on concrete.

Originally Posted by iacas

I disagree, but who knows what he actually means by "hard sand." If it's still sand at all you can force the club down. Of course, you'll want to hit closer to the ball because there's only so long you can make the club go down, too.

I can use the bounce off hardpan (and taught a forum member to play the shots this way and he did awesome at it just yesterday).

Yep, much safer. I can swing pretty hard and be sure I'm not going to clear the green like I used to. My method, I had very little margin for error. It's nice when it comes off, but I am no Phil Mickelson fer sure. Golf is controlling your misses.

Originally Posted by iacas

Because, I think as the guy I taught the shot to will attest, the safer, easier shot is to use the bounce. Minimally, but enough to prevent the possibility of digging in fat. You still get a margin of error - a little fat or a tiny bit thin and the ball still comes out really really well. The bounce "skids" it doesn't actually "bounce." AoA is small.