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'Don't Use Your Hands!!'


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Originally Posted by Clive Scarff

Hi and no, the motion here is not going to cause flipping. Flipping, while a hand action, only happens when you are trying to (erroneously) hit up at the ball, or scoop the ball. In any good swing the left wrist will cease to be straight either before, or at the ball. You cannot release the clubhead and maintain a flat left wrist. The notion of keeping a flat left wrist is a scary one, as it is only going to cause shanks, pushes, slices etc.  You cannot extend your right wrist AND keep your left wrist flat. And you must extend your right wrist to hit a good golf shot. Imagine pitching a baseball or shooting a basket and not extending your right wrist (assuming you are a rightie).  Now, the reason you will hear talk of maintaining a flat left wrist (as misguided as that direction is) is because it was noted that poor players scooped the ball and a symptom of that was a cupped left wrist. But telling a scooper not to bend their left wrist is tantamount to telling someone with whooping cough, not to cough. They should be taught to hit down at the ball, not given a dangerous direction like "maintain a flat left wrist".


I agree.  I am a very high ball hitter and my tendency is to scoop the ball when I flip my hands into the impact area too much.  The result is that i hit about 10 yards shorter than usual(sometimes more) with 7 iron for example.  When I tried to pronate(flatten) my left wrist more it did lead to a lower more penetrating trajectory but my consistency went out the window.  i started to hostle shots with alarming consistency.  In the end I gave up the flat wrist thing and concentrated on hitting down on the ball, firing my hands through the impact area, holding my posture and making sure I was in a balance with my left leg on follow through.  Not sure if this helps but it works for me.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Okay, that's how you mean it?

Because to me: "start the downswing with your lower body" != "don't use your hands" or "everything above your waist should be passive."

Thank you, for this I think you just helped me realize my hitting, swinging connundrum.

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I think definitions of release can differ from pro to pro.  Obviously we use our hands, our wrists are cocking and bending and then those conditions change on the downswing and followthrough.  The feeling for some may be that the hands are "passive".  Myself for example, I generally try to feel zero rotation of my forearms on the backswing.  But I'm not passive about trying to make it look passive lol  The only time I can think of feeling passive would be on a pitch shot where you try and feel gravity dump the club into the ground as you pivot.

While I agree we're are not trying to maintain a flat left wrist, a flat left is wrist at impact is important to hitting good shots.  Just the end result of doing a few things well.

Originally Posted by mikee123

In the end I gave up the flat wrist thing and concentrated on hitting down on the ball, firing my hands through the impact area, holding my posture and making sure I was in a balance with my left leg on follow through.  Not sure if this helps but it works for me.

And how do you think the feeling on hitting down effects the wrist conditions?

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I was going to write some clarifying questions (I don't agree that "the notion of keeping a flat left wrist" "is only going to cause shanks, pushes, slices, etc." - first of all, pushes and slices tend to have very different paths, with pushes being in to out and slices being out to in), but Mike got a few of them.

You are posting this video a lot Clive. It'd be interesting to know what your commercial affiliation is.

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Originally Posted by mvmac

I think definitions of release can differ from pro to pro.  Obviously we use our hands, our wrists are cocking and bending and then those conditions change on the downswing and followthrough.  The feeling for some may be that the hands are "passive".  Myself for example, I generally try to feel zero rotation of my forearms on the backswing.  But I'm not passive about trying to make it look passive lol  The only time I can think of feeling passive would be on a pitch shot where you try and feel gravity dump the club into the ground as you pivot.

While I agree we're are not trying to maintain a flat left wrist, a flat left is wrist at impact is important to hitting good shots.  Just the end result of doing a few things well.

Originally Posted by mvmac

And how do you think the feeling on hitting down effects the wrist conditions?

Yup,  I agree.  I end up with a flat wrist when hitting down on the ball.  Guess my point was, when I consciously attempt to pronate or bow the left wrist (Im a righty) I tend to lose control of the clubhead a bit too much and can shank it.  When I have both hands working together and just think "hit down" its a more fluid motion that ends up with a good result.

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I have had good success with my students who are "flippers" by just having them imagine they are striking the ball with the shaft band. This results in the "leaning" of the shaft at impact.and takes the focus off the ball.

PB
Canadian PGA Life Member
Peter Boyce Golf Academy
Strathroy, Ontario
:tmade:

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I also came to the same decision with my swing that I was too handsy, i.e. I relied on timing and feel to get my hands in the right location - this would work with an easy swing but when I tried to blast it I would consistantly hit a massive slice due to the open face.  I recently changed my grip of my left hand (I had slipped in to using a putter style grip, now its a lot stronger) and I have straightend up significantly (after ironing out the path issues to reduce the banana hooks).

Below is a McIlroy slow mo which shows his grip and how his hands dont rotate, only hinge and he keeps the flat left wrist the whole time, thus taking the hands out of the complex swing equation.

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Originally Posted by canadianpro

I have had good success with my students who are "flippers" by just having them imagine they are striking the ball with the shaft band. This results in the "leaning" of the shaft at impact.and takes the focus off the ball.


I don't understand what you mean by shaft band.  please explain.

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Originally Posted by mikee123

I don't understand what you mean by shaft band.  please explain.

If it's a Dynamic Golf shaft, the band that is gold and black

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And if it is a KBS shaft...it will be black and red!  Think shaft...not clubhead.

PB
Canadian PGA Life Member
Peter Boyce Golf Academy
Strathroy, Ontario
:tmade:

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Originally Posted by iacas

In the context of a golf swing? Straightening it. It's bent around 90° at the top of the backswing and straightens throughout the downswing and just into the follow-through.

Thank you! That is what I am missing with my left side dominant action of initiating the club down swing by pulling with my left delt/lat.

Often, when I get too relaxed or tired, I start to pull my shots. I beleive this should be the counter to my swing thought of pulling with the left side.

Thanks :-)

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Originally Posted by Bananarama

Below is a McIlroy slow mo which shows his grip and how his hands dont rotate, only hinge and he keeps the flat left wrist the whole time, thus taking the hands out of the complex swing equation.

I see his left wrist is flat until the club is parallel, then it hinges to the top.  He appears to come down on a different plane with lots of lag (read: hinge) and his hands turn over through impact.  I am not sure if this all is simple or imitable since he is quite a spry youth.

If you want another example, Steve Stricker: http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/swing-sequences/2010-08/photos-steve-stricker#slide=9

I know that the Pelz book talks about "dead hands" and I find this frustrating, especially given that he advocates a full wrist hinge on half swings and the 7:30 swing which is less than half.  Basically the wrist has to hinge at some point, hinge-and-hold, and then unhinge, but when we say wrist we don't mean hands.  My hands just grip the club.

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I hit some of the strongest and best shots ever with the simple thought in mind - use the sternum and keep the hands out of it they will do what you need. I really like the idea of a nice 1 piece takeaway with the same tempo through and going back has helped tremendously in my game.

cheers,  diece

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Don't use my hands?  Shall I hold the club in my arse?

In my opinion, the hands aren't passive - but they aren't doing a whole lot either.  Just like saying to a baseball player, "dont swing the bat with your hands" . .it makes no sense to me.  With what shall I swing it?  Now - don't flip it or do goofy things with your hands . .but making them totally passive would be, in my opinion, a goofy thing to do with your hands.

The last 2 instructors I had, btw, emphazised the importance of proper hand action.  The last one went as far as to say that proper hand and arm action is more important than body action . .and went ahead and hit an "arm swing" that nearly any of us would drool over.

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1. Yeah it is like when you throw a ball or serve in tennis, the right arm supplies a lot of power but ONLY at the right time - not early and not late. So if you take a swing with just your right hand and a ball over your ear, the right arm will fold and bend and then on the way down in your downswing you want to throw the ball at where your normal ball position is.

If your right arm releases early you throw the ball behind your back foot and if you release late the ball would be released in front of your front foot. You want to throw the ball straight between your feet or a little forwards towards left instep.

2. Basically the right arm folds on the way back, retains that fold for first half of downswing then starts to straighten as the club is horizontal on the downswing and then it straights and delivers the force to the ball. The left arms then folds on way through and rights stays straight.

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Originally Posted by AmazingWhacker

Don't use my hands?  Shall I hold the club in my arse?

In my opinion, the hands aren't passive - but they aren't doing a whole lot either.  Just like saying to a baseball player, "don't swing the bat with your hands" . .it makes no sense to me.  With what shall I swing it?  Now - don't flip it or do goofy things with your hands . .but making them totally passive would be, in my opinion, a goofy thing to do with your hands.

The last 2 instructors I had, btw, emphazised the importance of proper hand action.  The last one went as far as to say that proper hand and arm action is more important than body action . .and went ahead and hit an "arm swing" that nearly any of us would drool over.


"Shall I hold it with My arse?"  Love it .

Proper hand action is very important. They need to do the right things at the right time starting from the first move away. They need to not roll open on the way back or excessively stay shut (all they this is probably better than rolling open). Yes definitely arms and hands should govern and lead your body, not in any flippy way; hands hinging on plane; arms bending and straightening at the appropriate time; the body follows. Cheers AW

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