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Originally Posted by lonewolf

the whole conversation is too complicated to me.  Too much other stuff in my mind right now (work, family, etc.)  If I start to hear about hinge-action; spin rate; blah blah blah it's over for me.

Again, I want some drill and some context as to WHY I'm doing those drills - in laymen's terms.

Some of the items on the list are for students who care about that stuff, but most is for instructors, who can or should be able to make something as simple as you need.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

But when playing in terrain one is not accustomed to "downhill" is not as easily defined.

Go play a southern coastal bermuda green course (Kiawah) one day and then a mountainous Bent grass greens course the next day.  Downhill isn't as easy as one thinks.  Local knowledge DOES come into account.

Actually, it's incredibly easy. Use your feet.

Learn AimPoint.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

Fair enough.

But when playing in terrain one is not accustomed to "downhill" is not as easily defined.

Go play a southern coastal bermuda green course (Kiawah) one day and then a mountainous Bent grass greens course the next day.  Downhill isn't as easy as one thinks.  Local knowledge DOES come into account.

Originally Posted by iacas

Some of the items on the list are for students who care about that stuff, but most is for instructors, who can or should be able to make something as simple as you need.

Actually, it's incredibly easy. Use your feet.

Learn AimPoint.

10-4 for instructors.  My opinion here:  Spare me the mumbo-jumb technical stuff.  As a matter of fact, I find it that when an instructor spends an inordinate amount of time talking about things that he/she knows darn well thatt most golfers do not understand taht they are are proportionally more full of it.

Someone did ask a good question earlier.  How are we to know if an instructor is ---full oof it?

Regarding green reading - general rules of thumb - local knowledge.  Let's just say that we will disagree due to persoanl experience.

"Use your feet" could be considered a general rule of thumb that some golfers may not be as adept as you think. Additionally, Aim point is moot if you don't know which WAY a break occurs.

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Here is another breakthrough from the golf industry...

Affordable greens fees and customer service!

Years ago in the golf boom, showing up to a golf course was hit or miss. Customer service in the pro shop was iffy and many times a golfer felt like an inconvenience. Once golf became less in vogue and the tougher economic times hit, the industry took on a more customer friendly stance. The clubs that are surviving are the ones that bend over backwards to make you feel welcome. Greens fees are affordable and my observation is that they have not gone up significantly over the last several years. With more courses competing after fewer golfers, the management has cut the fat and offered a better, smarter product and has become more consumer friendly. In fact, the industry is actually making a real effort to attract a new base as they are realizing that the boomers are vacating the courses because of age and there are fewer people to take their place. The First Tee movement and others are designed to sustain and grow golf in the future. The invention of Golf Now has also given access to courses and open up revenue streams to allow many places to keep their doors open. Sites like the SandTrap allow a forum of all levels to share ideas in a lighthearted environment and have encouraged many to take up and/or continue the game. Golf continues to transform its image that it is a game for the masses and not just reserved for an elite few.

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Originally Posted by SamCreamer

How can we tell if our instructor is teaching us poorly? How will we know if we've actually found a good teacher?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonewolf

Someone did ask a good question earlier.  How are we to know if an instructor is ---full oof it?

This is a good article to read and consider asking some of these nine questions http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/the_instructor_quiz_nine_questions_youve_gotta_ask

A good instructor will know that the ball primarily starts where the face is aiming (not the path), understands what impact looks like, understands how/why we want to keep our head steady, and has an overall game plan to minimize compensations.

Mike McLoughlin

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Regarding green reading - general rules of thumb - local knowledge.  Let's just say that we will disagree due to persoanl experience.  "Use your feet" could be considered a general rule of thumb that some golfers may not be as adept as you think. Additionally, Aim point is moot if you don't know which WAY a break occurs.

And on a course you've never seen before? And AimPoint TELLS you which way a putt breaks. You should read up on it. :-)

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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Originally Posted by iacas

And on a course you've never seen before?

And AimPoint TELLS you which way a putt breaks. You should read up on it.

Um.

Doesn't one have to know the slope and/or the grade of the green to know where to aim?

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You walk to the middle of the putt.  Your feet tell you which way is directly uphill.  You can calibrate yourself to know how steep the slope is and at what angle your putt is to uphill.  Then you know which way and how much the break is.  Forget about mountains and creeks and oceans and local knowledge and  think physics.  The ball will always break in the direction of downhill, period.  Take an Aimpoint course and you will be pleasantly surprised how easy it is.  You will also be amazed at how the green designer used optical illusions to fool you into misreading the putt.

Scott

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You guys are saying my feet will tell me the physics.  My feet will tell me the slope.  And all I gotta do is translate what my feet tell me to an aim point.

Piece of cake.

Tongue in cheek, of course...and a little flippant.

But seriously, yall walking around barefooted?  are your feet that sensitive to slope adn the "physics" to tell you a 3 inch break vs. a 5 inch break?  Really?

In the bag:
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Mizuno MX Hybrid 20ºMizuno MX-200's 4 - GCleveland G10 56º SWOddysey 2ball with line Putter

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

You guys are saying my feet will tell me the physics.  My feet will tell me the slope.  And all I gotta do is translate what my feet tell me to an aim point.

Piece of cake.

Tongue in cheek, of course...and a little flippant.

But seriously, yall walking around barefooted?  are your feet that sensitive to slope adn the "physics" to tell you a 3 inch break vs. a 5 inch break?  Really?

Thats not really how it works.  You should have the slope measured with the something like a digital level.  You should know what the typical speed is at the course you play.  You use the feet to help you find the zero line.  Once you have the slope, speed, and zero line you can calculate the break with the aimcharts.  The concept is VERY simple in theory and VERY simple if you greens have a lot of planar surfaces (flat but tilted).  The problem I have is I rarely find a putt that is on a truly planar surface.  When you start talking about crowns, saddles, anchor points, inflexion points, etc it does get more complicated and makes it difficult to "take out on the course".

What would be really cool is if sky caddie or a company like that would would show contour lines of the greens.  My understanding is that sky caddie does measure the green and should have the contour lines but I have never seen that information released.  If you have the contour lines of the greens you play you would be CRAZY not to use aimpoint.

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Really.

Scott

Titleist, Edel, Scotty Cameron Putter, Snell - AimPoint - Evolvr - MirrorVision

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Originally Posted by boogielicious

Really.

Really, what?

You play barefoot?

In the bag:
Cleveland Launcher 9.5º Driver
Cleveland 4W 17º
Mizuno MX Hybrid 20ºMizuno MX-200's 4 - GCleveland G10 56º SWOddysey 2ball with line Putter

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Play in some TRUELinkswear golf shoes.  You will experience a golf course like never before.  Want to feel even more?  Take the insoles out

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

Really, what?

You play barefoot?

I've been reading your comments in this thread and I have some advice for you. Stop trying to be a smart aleck and start listening to people that know a lot more than you about golf instruction. I know your type as I have given them many lessons. They turn up for a lesson expecting the instructor to touch them with a magic wand and have them winning the US Open the next week. Tell you what, buddy, it ain't gonna happen. If it were the case, I'd have used the magic wand on myself ages ago and you'd have never heard of Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods.

But you've taken the first step and found your way to this forum. For that I commend you. Now, try and open your mind and learn something new while you are here. There is a wealth of information on TST which can really help your game. Hey, maybe not next week, but this time next year you could be a scratch golfer.

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"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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People just dont work hard enough in this game and expect secret to fall out of the sky...I have had very few formal lessons some lessons from people that knew me for a long time and I can say is that the best way to get good at golf is find out by yourself. I don't believe in none of this technical bullshit people put into our minds I like to find out technical things by myself through trial an error. Why with all of this new technology golfers still suck and pga tour players still are no where near as close as the older players were in terms of ballstriking.

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Haha, I thought this was about breakthroughs in golf, hence my post. Now I realize its just another thread to argue about lessons and golf instruction. Live and learn.

Cobra LTDx 10.5* | Big Tour 15.5*| Rad Tour 18.5*  | Titleist U500 4-23* | T100 5-P | Vokey SM7 50/8* F, 54/10* S, SM8 58/10* S | Scotty Cameron Squareback No. 1 | Vice Pro Plus  

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Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I've been reading your comments in this thread and I have some advice for you. Stop trying to be a smart aleck and start listening to people that know a lot more than you about golf instruction. I know your type as I have given them many lessons. They turn up for a lesson expecting the instructor to touch them with a magic wand and have them winning the US Open the next week. Tell you what, buddy, it ain't gonna happen. If it were the case, I'd have used the magic wand on myself ages ago and you'd have never heard of Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods.

But you've taken the first step and found your way to this forum. For that I commend you. Now, try and open your mind and learn something new while you are here. There is a wealth of information on TST which can really help your game. Hey, maybe not next week, but this time next year you could be a scratch golfer.

My mind is WIDE open.

The OP was opining about "club hos".  It seems to me there are also some AIM point "hos".

My questions stands:  My feet are going to tell me where to aim?

Another poster (Well01) seems to think NO, while others think yes.

I'll give you some advice:  Read Well01's response to my question and you see if you want to do that when visiting a golf course.

Regarding my posts:  Isn't the intent of a forum to have discussion?; Q and A's?  One could even say your opinion of my posts (although shallow and presumptuous) are part of the discussion.

Regarding your "magic wand" comment:  it seems to me there are some that think Aim Point IS the magic wand.  I disagree.  what about you?

In the bag:
Cleveland Launcher 9.5º Driver
Cleveland 4W 17º
Mizuno MX Hybrid 20ºMizuno MX-200's 4 - GCleveland G10 56º SWOddysey 2ball with line Putter

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You will find, Lonewolf, that there have been (and will continue to be) "ho's" on a variety of subjects here. Several years ago it was Stack and Tilt, with multitudes of minions here that were absolutely convinced that it was the only way to correctly hit a golf ball. There are folks convinced that Aimpoint is the absolute best way to read a putt, and will argue with anyone who disagrees (or even asks questions).

I don't personally putt with my feet, but knowing the fall line (or whatever terminology fits your method) can help you to establish the direction of break. And knowing the slope and speed (and direction of grain, in some cases) of a green is important in guessing the amount of break. My understanding is that Aimpoint does that. But you still have to make a putting stroke that starts the ball on your intended line.

Take any golf idea with a grain of salt. There are good things to extract from any golf method. And there are probably some things to discard from each. The key is knowing one from the other.

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

My mind is WIDE open.

The OP was opining about "club hos".  It seems to me there are also some AIM point "hos".

My questions stands:  My feet are going to tell me where to aim?

Another poster (Well01) seems to think NO, while others think yes.

I'll give you some advice:  Read Well01's response to my question and you see if you want to do that when visiting a golf course.

Regarding my posts:  Isn't the intent of a forum to have discussion?; Q and A's?  One could even say your opinion of my posts (although shallow and presumptuous) are part of the discussion.

Regarding your "magic wand" comment:  it seems to me there are some that think Aim Point IS the magic wand.  I disagree.  what about you?

It definitely isn't magic and in my opinion if someone claims that it is then they are probably trying to sell something.  I don't think the OP was trying to claim it's magic.

I only have a basic understanding of aimpoint but I have spent time with Mark.  I don't see how anyone could possible calculate the slope by using their feet like someone here has claimed and that's not how it was explained to me by Mark.  If they could then why does everyone using aimpoint carry around a digital level.  Maybe you can get close but so say this putt in on a 2% slope instead of 3% or 1% because they felt it in their feet is kind of ridiculous.  The feet help you find the zero line, fall line, uphill direction, or whatever else you call it...atleast that how it taught to me.

In my opinion, the real advantage of Aimpoint comes if you play the same courses a lot and have time to map out the greens prior to playing.  You can map out the slope percentages in different sections of the green, the zero line angles, and you would need to figure out the speed of the greens.  It is a lot of work to do it correctly but if you have all that then you can calculate the break within seconds of looking at your chart.  If I played the same courses or was a member at a club then there is no doubt I would have every green mapped out and use aimpoint on every putt.  You would be crazy not too...it's almost like cheating.  If you don't have it mapped out prior to playing its pretty difficult and slows everything down on anything other than a planar (flat but tilted)putt.

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