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Originally Posted by Harmonious

You will find, Lonewolf, that there have been (and will continue to be) "ho's" on a variety of subjects here. Several years ago it was Stack and Tilt, with multitudes of minions here that were absolutely convinced that it was the only way to correctly hit a golf ball. There are folks convinced that Aimpoint is the absolute best way to read a putt, and will argue with anyone who disagrees (or even asks questions).

I don't personally putt with my feet, but knowing the fall line (or whatever terminology fits your method) can help you to establish the direction of break. And knowing the slope and speed (and direction of grain, in some cases) of a green is important in guessing the amount of break. My understanding is that Aimpoint does that. But you still have to make a putting stroke that starts the ball on your intended line.

Take any golf idea with a grain of salt. There are good things to extract from any golf method. And there are probably some things to discard from each. The key is knowing one from the other.

yes.

Here's the thing.Β  I vehemently disagree that Aim Point / reading greens with my feet are some panacea to being able to visit unfamiliar gof courses and know the break.Β  boogilicous and the OP seem to think so.Β  My fliappnacy on the subject was to point out the flippancy of trying to convince me that AIM point and reading greens with ones feet is a panacea.

There probably is some value in reading greens with using ones feet along with ones eyes and ones local knowledge.Β  That is a far cry from reading a green with ones feet being THE method and local knowledge not mattering.Β  I'm calling BS on that.

Completely agree on your grain of salt approach.

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Originally Posted by well01

It definitely isn't magic and in my opinion if someone claims that it is then they are probably trying to sell something.Β  I don't think the OP was trying to claim it's magic.

I only have a basic understanding of aimpoint but I have spent time with Mark.Β  I don't see how anyone could possible calculate the slope by using their feet like someone here has claimed and that's not how it was explained to me by Mark.Β  If they could then why does everyone using aimpoint carry around a digital level.Β  Maybe you can get close but so say this putt in on a 2% slope instead of 3% or 1% because they felt it in their feet is kind of ridiculous.Β  The feet help you find the zero line, fall line, uphill direction, or whatever else you call it...atleast that how it taught to me.

In my opinion, the real advantage of Aimpoint comes if you play the same courses a lot and have time to map out the greens prior to playing.Β  You can map out the slope percentages in different sections of the green, the zero line angles, and you would need to figure out the speed of the greens.Β  It is a lot of work to do it correctly but if you have all that then you can calculate the break within seconds of looking at your chart.Β  If I played the same courses or was a member at a club then there is no doubt I would have every green mapped out and use aimpoint on every putt.Β  You would be crazy not too...it's almost like cheating.Β  If you don't have it mapped out prior to playing its pretty difficult and slows everything down on anything other than a planar (flat but tilted)putt.

What he said.

+ do AIM Pointers really carry around a digital level while palying rounds?

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+ do AIM Pointers really carry around a digital level while palying rounds?

Levels are not approved equipment. You can't turn in a score you get while using one. So no. From what I understand you can build a map of greens you frequently play, but it also teaches you how to read greens without requiring a level. There are other AimPoint threads on here if you're interested in learning about the technique. The original post didn't even mention AimPoint, it was only about rules of thumb that get carried too far.

"Golf is an entire game built around making something that is naturally easy - putting a ball into a hole - as difficult as possible." - Scott Adams

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

My questions stands:Β  My feet are going to tell me where to aim?

Another poster (Well01) seems to think NO, while others think yes.

Regarding my posts:Β  Isn't the intent of a forum to have discussion?; Q and A's?Β  One could even say your opinion of my posts (although shallow and presumptuous) are part of the discussion.

Regarding your "magic wand" comment:Β  it seems to me there are some that think Aim Point IS the magic wand.Β  I disagree.Β  what about you?

Aimpoint is not a magic wand and nobody is saying it is.Β IMHO itΒ is another weapon in a golfer's arsenal. All I'm recommending is that you actually take an Aimpoint course or read up on it first before you dismiss it out of hand. Aimpoint will give you a very good idea ofΒ the undulations ofΒ anyΒ greenΒ and from that, based on their recommend optimal (capture) speed, you can figure out where you need to start your putt to have the best chance of making it. It is scientific-based, so it is hard to argue with.

Yes, it is. But bring something to the table to discuss rather than fire off bla bla bla comments which only make you look ignorant at best. You are here discussing how Aimpoint doesn't work and you don't know the first thing about it.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

What he said.

+ do AIM Pointers really carry around a digital level while palying rounds?

No, not while they play but thats how they chart greens.Β  MostΒ people serious about Aimpoint already have this stuff figured out before they play.Β  There a A LOTΒ of caddie's carrying them around in the practice rounds too.

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Since this kind of turned into an Aimoint thread - Does anyone out there use Aimpoint with the Contour lines?Β  I'm curious as to how accurate the Contour lines can be used to determine the Zero line.

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

That is a far cry from reading a green with ones feet being THE method and local knowledge not mattering.Β  I'm calling BS on that.

Of course local knowledge matters but that is simply having had the chance to putt and see which way the ball breaks! But what if you don't have that opportunity and it is your first time playing that course? Course architects are smart little buggers and know that 99% of golfers are going to eye the break, so they include designs that fool the golfer if they rely only on their eyes. The great thing about Aimpoint is that you cannot be tricked. You can make an error calculating the exact break but you cannot be tricked by the architect.

By the way, calling people on here "minions" and "hos" is Harmonious' way to describe anybody who agrees with Erik (iacas), the forum admin. In fact, all Erik is doing is pointing people in the right direction, as at the end of the day golf is geometry and physics, and asking them to come to their own conclusions based on facts not myths. And he's not the onlyΒ pro pointing the masses in the right direction. The number of very goodΒ pros is growing and will continue to grow.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill

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Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Aimpoint is not a magic wand and nobody is saying it is.Β IMHO itΒ is another weapon in a golfer's arsenal. All I'm recommending is that you actually take an Aimpoint course or read up on it first before you dismiss it out of hand. Aimpoint will give you a very good idea ofΒ the undulations ofΒ anyΒ greenΒ and from that, based on their recommend optimal (capture) speed, you can figure out where you need to start your putt to have the best chance of making it. It is scientific-based, so it is hard to argue with.

Yes, it is. But bring something to the table to discuss rather than fire off bla bla bla comments which only make you look ignorant at best. You are here discussing how Aimpoint doesn't work and you don't know the first thing about it.

Aimpoint is not a magic wand and nobody is saying it is

--- Beg to differ.Β  Read boogielicous and icacas posts.Β ' All I gotta do is read up on Aim point and read greens with mey feet.'Β  And I quote "It's that simple".

I'm here to reply to the posts.Β  AIM point was interjected.Β  It was interjected within context of playing different greens and throwing out old rules of thumb (like breaks away from a mountain, etc.)Β  It was also explained as a great way to figure out greens with ones feet without caring about local knowledge (rules of thumb)--Β  even greens a player has never played on.Β  And IMHO, that is BS.Β  And, it looks like others that know AIM point better than I agree with me.

So, no.Β  I'm not going to buy AIM point material.Β  Not going to take an AIM point class.Β Nor am I going to carry around a level.Β  I don't have to become an expert at something to see that it is being "ho'ed".

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I'm here to reply to the posts.Β  AIM point was interjected.Β  It was interjected within context of playing different greens and throwing out old rules of thumb (like breaks away from a mountain, etc.)

No it wasn't. It was interjected as a way to get better reads. And the rules of thumb were only thrown out when they're taken to non-sensible extremes (or, implicitly, when they contradict information from a reliable source). [quote name="lonewolf" url="/t/59658/its-2012/36#post_732560"]It was also explained as a great way to figure out greens with ones feet without caring about local knowledge (rules of thumb)--Β  even greens a player has never played on.Β  And IMHO, that is BS.[/quote] Again, it wasn't. What thread have you been reading? [quote name="lonewolf" url="/t/59658/its-2012/36#post_732560"] Aimpoint is not a magic wand and nobody is saying it is --- Beg to differ. Read boogielicous and icacas posts. ' All I gotta do is read up on Aim point and read greens with mey feet.' And I quote "It's that simple". [/quote] iacas's original point was that he can read break very accurately through his feet. He claims that it is simple for him to do so. How is this difficult for you to accept? Rules of thumb are just general statistics, aka, "break tends to be toward local bodies of water 75% of the time". I made that up, but that's the idea. If you have another instrument for measuring break that you have higher confidence in than a general loose statistic, then you should use it. Really, it's that simple. I'm not an expert on Aimpoint, I don't use it nor study it, but come on, at least try to understand what people are saying.

"Golf is an entire game built around making something that is naturally easy - putting a ball into a hole - as difficult as possible." - Scott Adams

Mid-priced ball reviews: Top Flight Gamer v2 | Bridgestone e5 ('10) | Titleist NXT Tour ('10) | Taylormade Burner TP LDP | Taylormade TP Black | Taylormade Burner Tour | Srixon Q-Star ('12)

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No one said it was THE method, we said it was a method. Β You've decided to take whatever anyone says and amplify it then disagree with it. Β That is not a discussion, it is just contradiction. Β You can do whatever you want and use whatever rules-of-thumb, methods, local knowledge, voodoo etc. Β What we are saying is water and golf balls flow downhill by the law of gravity and not by topological features of the area around you or because some old guy with local knowledge says so.

My putts per round have gone down by five since I went to the Aimpoint class. I am at 31 per round. Β I have had rounds with 26 putts. Β I wanted to know how to better read my putts and to know how much it will break. Β Aimpoint helped out immensely for me because I could not find anyone who seemed to have any logical method other than "experience". Β It was well worth it for me. Β I find it very easy to determine the slope and direction with my feet, which are in golf shoes. Β It takes 15 seconds. Β Speed and direction are then the only factors I need to control.

I don't desire a response from you but I expect a sanctimonious, I-am-better than you response, which is all you have been providing.

Scott

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

Aimpoint is not a magic wand and nobody is saying it is

Originally Posted by boogielicious

No one said it was THE method, we said it was a method.

It is the magic wand method.

Walk a few steps, estimate the slope, look into your magic book and you get the break.

Sure, if you get something wrong or hit a bad putt and you still miss, but that's true of any method.

I suppose if you can't tell the difference between walking uphill and walking downhill, you could have a problem. Β But I'd see a doctor about it, not a golf instructor.

Dan

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Originally Posted by lonewolf

I'm here to reply to the posts.Β  AIM point was interjected.Β  It was interjected within context of playing different greens and throwing out old rules of thumb (like breaks away from a mountain, etc.)

"No it wasn't. It was interjected as a way to get better reads. And the rules of thumb were only thrown out when they're taken to non-sensible extremes (or, implicitly, when they contradict information from a reliable source)."

--Um.Β  Yest it was.Β  Read post #19 in this thread.Β  It's the first post on page 2.Β  then scroll down to post #23.Β  And then mosey down to post #25.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

It was also explained as a great way to figure out greens with ones feet without caring about local knowledge (rules of thumb)--Β  even greens a player has never played on.Β  And IMHO, that is BS.


"Again, it wasn't. What thread have you been reading?"

--Apparently a differnt one than you.Β  Again, read posts #19, 23 and 25.

Originally Posted by lonewolf

Aimpoint is not a magic wand and nobody is saying it is

---Beg to differ. Read boogielicous and icacas posts. ' All I gotta do is read up on Aim point and read greens with mey feet.' And I quote "It's that simple".


"iacas's original point was that he can read break very accurately through his feet. He claims that it is simple for him to do so. How is this difficult for you to accept?"

--iacas point is very difficult for me to accept.Β  I'm not buying that "feet reading" a green can tell me the difference between a 2" break and a 4" break ESPECIALLY when the the assertion is that local knowledge becomes moot when "feet reading".Β  The question I would have is do you think you can tell a 2" break from a 4" break by "feet reading"?



Rules of thumb are just general statistics, aka, "break tends to be toward local bodies of water 75% of the time". I made that up, but that's the idea. If you have another instrument for measuring break that you have higher confidence in than a general loose statistic, then you should use it. Really, it's that simple.

"I'm not an expert on Aimpoint, I don't use it nor study it, but come on, at least try to understand what people are saying."

--Oh.Β  OK.Β  One only has to be an expert to DISPUTE Aim point....but not an expert to actually defend it.Β  That's good to know.Β  I'll file that away.

In the bag:
Cleveland Launcher 9.5ΒΊ Driver
ClevelandΒ 4W 17ΒΊ
Mizuno MX Hybrid 20ΒΊMizuno MX-200's 4 - GCleveland G10 56ΒΊ SWOddysey 2ball with line Putter

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Originally Posted by boogielicious

No one said it was THE method, we said it was a method. Β You've decided to take whatever anyone says and amplify it then disagree with it. Β That is not a discussion, it is just contradiction. Β You can do whatever you want and use whatever rules-of-thumb, methods, local knowledge, voodoo etc. Β What we are saying is water and golf balls flow downhill by the law of gravity and not by topological features of the area around you or because some old guy with local knowledge says so.

My putts per round have gone down by five since I went to the Aimpoint class. I am at 31 per round. Β I have had rounds with 26 putts. Β I wanted to know how to better read my putts and to know how much it will break. Β Aimpoint helped out immensely for me because I could not find anyone who seemed to have any logical method other than "experience". Β It was well worth it for me. Β I find it very easy to determine the slope and direction with my feet, which are in golf shoes. Β It takes 15 seconds. Β Speed and direction are then the only factors I need to control.

I don't desire a response from you but I expect a sanctimonious, I-am-better than you response, which is all you have been providing.

Read posts 19, 23, and 25.Β  Heck go read your OWN post.Β  #28 (unless you really were talking about playing barefoot).

In the bag:
Cleveland Launcher 9.5ΒΊ Driver
ClevelandΒ 4W 17ΒΊ
Mizuno MX Hybrid 20ΒΊMizuno MX-200's 4 - GCleveland G10 56ΒΊ SWOddysey 2ball with line Putter

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--Um.Β  Yest it was.Β  Read post #19 in this thread.Β  It's the first post on page 2.Β  then scroll down to post #23.Β  And then mosey down to post #25.

I re-read them. I suggest you do too. Again, no. All that was said was that Aimpoint helps you figure out break. Nothing else you asserted about extremes was even casually implied in those posts. Again, what thread are you reading? You're taking extremes that were never meant to be implied. [quote name="lonewolf" url="/t/59658/its-2012/36#post_732610"]--iacas point is very difficult for me to accept.Β  I'm not buying that "feet reading" a green can tell me the difference between a 2" break and a 4" break ESPECIALLY when the the assertion is that local knowledge becomes moot when "feet reading".Β  The question I would have is do you think you can tell a 2" break from a 4" break by "feet reading"?[/quote] Apparently he does. I don't think I could, but then I have not practiced it or been trained at all, so it's irrelevant. Really, this is the only point worth mentioning in this conversation. You think that it's hard (or impossible) to read a green with your feet. iacas asserts differently, that he can. All the other mumbo jumbo about "throwing away" and "rules of thumb" have nothing to do with the actual topic. Drop it and focus on this. [quote name="lonewolf" url="/t/59658/its-2012/36#post_732610"]--Oh.Β  OK.Β  One only has to be an expert to DISPUTE Aim point....but not an expert to actually defend it.Β  That's good to know.Β  I'll file that away.[/quote] I'm not defending Aimpoint (and that was pretty obvious), I'm pointing out that you're having a conversation over things that someone didn't say.

"Golf is an entire game built around making something that is naturally easy - putting a ball into a hole - as difficult as possible." - Scott Adams

Mid-priced ball reviews: Top Flight Gamer v2 | Bridgestone e5 ('10) | Titleist NXT Tour ('10) | Taylormade Burner TP LDP | Taylormade TP Black | Taylormade Burner Tour | Srixon Q-Star ('12)

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AimPoint is a method. Some people think it is THE method, especially if it works for them. If it doesn't work for you, then it doesn't.

In the posts you referenced, "THE METHOD" was never mentioned once.

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Originally Posted by B-Con

I re-read them. I suggest you do too.

Again, no. All that was said was that Aimpoint helps you figure out break. Nothing else you asserted about extremes was even casually implied in those posts.

Again, what thread are you reading? You're taking extremes that were never meant to be implied.

Apparently he does. I don't think I could, but then I have not practiced it or been trained at all, so it's irrelevant.

Really, this is the only point worth mentioning in this conversation. You think that it's hard (or impossible) to read a green with your feet. iacas asserts differently, that he can. All the other mumbo jumbo about "throwing away" and "rules of thumb" have nothing to do with the actual topic. Drop it and focus on this.

I'm not defending Aimpoint (and that was pretty obvious), I'm pointing out that you're having a conversation over things that someone didn't say.

B-Con:

Read this slowly:

Post by me: "But when playing in terrain one is not accustomed to "downhill" is not as easily defined.

Go play a southern coastal bermuda green course (Kiawah) one day and then a mountainous Bent grass greens courseΒ the nextΒ day.Β  Downhill isn't as easy as one thinks.Β  Local knowledge DOES come into account.Β "

-------THEN

== Direct reply by iaca: "Actually, it's incredibly easy. Use your feet.

Learn AimPoint."

Now,,,that you have read the above; tell me how iacas reply was not interjecting Aim Pont within the context of playing different greens and/or rules of thumb (local knowledge).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

iacas was replying DIRECTLY to my post about playing different greens and local rules of thumb and interjecting AIm Point.Β  For you not to get that...well...it's not worth the effort to explain it.Β  Unless you just didn't read the posts.

In the bag:
Cleveland Launcher 9.5ΒΊ Driver
ClevelandΒ 4W 17ΒΊ
Mizuno MX Hybrid 20ΒΊMizuno MX-200's 4 - GCleveland G10 56ΒΊ SWOddysey 2ball with line Putter

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B-Con:

AGain,,try this post.Β  Read it.Β  It is post #23

Originally Posted by lonewolf View Post

Regarding green reading - general rules of thumb - local knowledge.Β  Let's just say that we will disagree due to persoanl experience.
"Use your feet" could be considered a general rule of thumb that some golfers may not be as adept as you think. Additionally, Aim point is moot if you don't know which WAY a break occurs.


Iacas:Β  "And on a course you've never seen before ?

And AimPoint TELLS you which way a putt breaks. You should read up on it."

---------------------------------------

Now,,,tell me again how Aim Point was not interjected within the context of local knowledge and/or new courses.

In the bag:
Cleveland Launcher 9.5ΒΊ Driver
ClevelandΒ 4W 17ΒΊ
Mizuno MX Hybrid 20ΒΊMizuno MX-200's 4 - GCleveland G10 56ΒΊ SWOddysey 2ball with line Putter

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I find the club ho thing to be rather bizzarre and just stupid.Β  A driver that is 5 years old has the same face as one today, same size, goes just as far.Β  Irons, there isn't a difference.Β  I've come to the realization that clubs matter very little.Β  Yes, they need to look go to your eye and be the proper forgiveness (IE don't play blades if you can't come close to pure consistantly) but that is about it.Β  There isn't a golf club in the world that will make you any better.

The ball flight stuff, people are just that stuck on there beliefs.Β  Reminds me of people and there belief that socialism works (even though it has failed and is failing in Europe).

Brian

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