Shaping the Ball

[iacas]

Ernest - as you can tell, I was under the same impression you're in regarding changing your stance and the alignments of your body.  In fact I'm glad you asked your questions as it told me I'm not the only confused one out there regarding this topic

Thanks Erik and Mike - I think you two have answered my questions and solved this mystery for me.  For some reason, I've always thought that opening or closing your stance ONLY means you change your footings but the rest of your body alignment (hips, shoulders, arms, etc) all remain the same lining up parallel left of the target.  Thinking in terms of a closed stance being that I'm lining up right of the target with a clubface that is closed to my stance (and vice versa for an open stance) connected the dots for me.

Have a great one!

Happy to help, and glad we could cut through any confusion. Apologies if things were confusing before. Perhaps a video on this is needed.

[JonMA1]

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muRaZFR9PZM[/Video] What do you guys think about what this guy is saying? The explanation of the laws of ball flight seem to be exactly what I've learned here, but I wanted to know anyone's thoughts on his suggestions for fixing a chronic slicer's swing flaws.

[mvmac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muRaZFR9PZM

What do you guys think about what this guy is saying? The explanation of the laws of ball flight seem to be exactly what I've learned here, but I wanted to know anyone's thoughts on his suggestions for fixing a chronic slicer's swing flaws.

Yes obviously agree for the most part, which is why I suggest Key #2 drills on the site to people looking for help with their slice/fade.  Tough to just say that most slicers aim left, I've seen a decent amount aim right.  I remember Dave and Erik talking about "squeezing" the elbows throughout the swing back in late '09 when I first got to know them online.  One of the best videos was Dave throwing the boulder over a wall, very much in the same vein as the "raise the handle" feel.

[JonMA1]

Yes obviously agree for the most part, which is why I suggest Key #2 drills

Mike, you've been suggesting this to me for several months. Today I decided instead of taking my weak-ass game to the course and trying in vain to break 100, I'd start concentrating on this and work on it all winter if necessary.

So I started out not caring too much about the results. I just wanted to get to where the weight forward felt right. Just took half swings with a 7iron, fighting myself about caring where the ball went.

After a while, I started to feel Iike I didn't have to think about it anymore. So I started working on the other keys as well.  Again, half swings. The inside to out path is very unnatural to me. When I take a swing without the ball I got a beautiful left to right divot. Put a ball down and I'd revert to the outside-in path. I kept my alignment to the target and started concentrating on a point 5" or so ahead of the ball in the direction I wanted my swing path to follow. I used my right arm more to "push outward". In the meantime, I could tell by the ball flight that my club face was open relative to the swing path (not hard to do when your swing path is out - in). I know this is a band-aid fix, but I had to really close my club face at address. At this point, even a hook would be an improvement. After several swings, I finally got the ball to start right and come just a bit to the left. Most of my shots had a straight ball flight and some still had a very slight fade. I think I have a lot of old habits to break. Maybe I'll review my 5sk videos.

Anyway, while working on these keys, I believe my hands remained well in front of the ball at impact which of course delofted the club. The result from cleanly hit shots was lower trajectory and what may have been greater distances based on how easy I was swinging.

As always, thanks for the suggestion.

[mvmac]

Mike, you've been suggesting this to me for several months. Today I decided instead of taking my weak-ass game to the course and trying in vain to break 100, I'd start concentrating on this and work on it all winter if necessary.

So I started out not caring too much about the results. I just wanted to get to where the weight forward felt right. Just took half swings with a 7iron, fighting myself about caring where the ball went.

After a while, I started to feel Iike I didn't have to think about it anymore. So I started working on the other keys as well.  Again, half swings. The inside to out path is very unnatural to me. When I take a swing without the ball I got a beautiful left to right divot. Put a ball down and I'd revert to the outside-in path. I kept my alignment to the target and started concentrating on a point 5" or so ahead of the ball in the direction I wanted my swing path to follow. I used my right arm more to "push outward". In the meantime, I could tell by the ball flight that my club face was open relative to the swing path (not hard to do when your swing path is out - in). I know this is a band-aid fix, but I had to really close my club face at address. At this point, even a hook would be an improvement. After several swings, I finally got the ball to start right and come just a bit to the left. Most of my shots had a straight ball flight and some still had a very slight fade. I think I have a lot of old habits to break. Maybe I'll review my 5sk videos.

Anyway, while working on these keys, I believe my hands remained well in front of the ball at impact which of course delofted the club. The result from cleanly hit shots was lower trajectory and what may have been greater distances based on how easy I was swinging.

As always, thanks for the suggestion.

Very cool, thanks for sharing, glad I could help.  You also brought up a good point, the goal isn't always to turn the slice into a draw, a straightish ball or playable fade is also improvement.  Getting better is a marathon not a sprint.

[iteeitup]

Just so I understand, in the simplest terms, to hit a draw you want to aim right of target and close the club face.  If I were to change the stance in below photo to aim more right, does the path of the club change with the stance?

In other words at P2, does the but end of the club point at the intended target or to the aim point right of the target?

I always try to feel the but end of the grip pointing at the target to make sure I am starting the club back on plane so I want to make sure I am understanding how the path works in conjunction with the club face.

Hope this makes sense - I am going to order the dvd's and really dive in as I want to improve on this.

[mvmac]

Just so I understand, in the simplest terms, to hit a draw you want to aim right of target and close the club face.  If I were to change the stance in below photo to aim more right, does the path of the club change with the stance?

To hit a draw you want the clubface aimed RIGHT of the target and have the path further right. So from a neutral stance, face would be 2 degrees right of the target, path would be 4 degrees right of the target. Face is closed to the path but right of the target.

Yes you can change path by changing your alignment. More right would add more OUTward path.

In other words at P2, does the but end of the club point at the intended target or to the aim point right of the target?

I always try to feel the but end of the grip pointing at the target to make sure I am starting the club back on plane so I want to make sure I am understanding how the path works in conjunction with the club face.

For 5SK there is no "model" A2. Off topic for this thread but I'm not a huge fan of that pic above because the right arm is too straight and the golfer hasn't turned much. Couple "good" examples of A2 here. Knees have changed flex somewhat, allowing the hands to move inward somewhat, right arm has added some bend from A1-2, club head is inline with the hands. Obviously there are great golfers that don't look exactly like this at A2 but there is some combination of what I just described going on.

Where the butt end points at A2 doesn't pre-determine where the path is, you basically just don't want the club too far inside or outside the hands.

[iteeitup]

Thanks for reply mvmac - this helps.

[mvmac]

@David in FL did you tell Graeme about this thread when you played golf with him?

[David in FL]

@David in FL did you tell Graeme about this thread when you played golf with him? ;-)

No....we spent most of our time talking about my alignment! :~(

[MattM]

I know I am bringing this back from the dead, but I had to! I've been doing evolvr and got the 5 simple keys etc. I've gotten my swing plane to a more neutral plane and was still struggling because I couldn't understand why I was pull drawing or fading too much when hitting for the greens! I printed the first page out with Erik's VERY detailed instructions and sure enough I can work the ball any way I want. I just have to be mindful of the clubface. Also, a new thing that this has helped me with is understanding the CLUB FACE target and setup! I'm now lining up my shots much like my putts and starting the ball on the line that I aim the clubface at. It has been ONE HUNDRED percent better! I'm trying to continue doing my setup for a stock fade on as many shots as possible because it seems to be the easier of the two to control. I can easily draw it when needed, but if I play a draw too long it tends to draw more and more as the round goes on. With the help of this thread I honestly think that I'll be able to shoot at least a 79 once before the year is up!!!! Thanks again for this thread! I wish I had seen it sooner!

[cutshot878]

"Kenny Perry (a pronounced drawer) was playing at Doral a few years ago and someone asked him what he does with a pin on the right side of the green. He said he aimed at the flag and if his ball didn't draw, he got lucky, but otherwise he was content to have a 25-footer for birdie."

So what did Kenny do when his stock push draws off the tee during a round weren't drawing and he was landing on the far right side of the fairway or the right rough? If there were overhanging trees and limbs how was he hitting his approach shots into the Par 4's and Par 5's from the right side of the fairway without hitting the trees? So he would have still hit his stock push draw? How exactly?  I'm sure he had a pretty good emergency fade he could hit.  I'm sure he knew how to use any of the shot shaping strategies you've mentioned. I'm guessing his grip was at least neutral. I would love to know what it was about his swing that made it draw biased.  Was it his grip? Or his set up? If he did play the ball farther back in his stance did he open his face 8 degrees to offset the delofting outward angle of attack?  And what was the deal with that little pause at the top of the backswing? Was that conscious? Didn't Jay Haas have one of those weird pauses at the top too? You don't see those kind of swing tics anymore on tour. The downswing seems more like a powerful recoil from the backswing without a pause.

As a hooker, the weak grip has been my savior for the past two years and allowed me to hit controllable push draws and fades (with appropriate changes to set up for the fade ) when needed. But deep down, I knew that my super weak grip had to be scrapped and I needed to master a more neutral grip with my left heel pad on top of the shaft and thumb more aft instead of directly on top.  I recently learned (in the dirt, trial and error) that I don't have to use a super weak grip (high up in the left palm) to keep the ball from starting left and hooking wildly---clubface closing too early---releasing too early.  If I move the ball back in my stance and tilt my chin to the right (a la Nicklaus and others) to keep my head behind the ball, I can use a neutral grip.  Because the ball is farther back in my stance the clubface doesn't have time to close as soon like it was when I was playing the ball at an orthodox position (closer to the heel).   This gives me a lower ball flight. Much needed as I've always considered my ball flight to be too high and I've always envied golfers with that nice low trajectory.   Not sure if playing the ball back like this will work for the 3 wood and Driver. Might have to keep the grip weak for those clubs. Not sure you can play the ball in the middle of your stance with a driver.

Also, doesn't opening the face of a club (that's addressing a ball in the middle of your stance)  make you want to instinctively take it back more inside? It does for me. Golf seems very counter intuitive.

[JonMA1]

I started playing from a longer set of tees last month and now use my driver for 5 or the 9 holes (before it was used only on the two par 5's). Because of the course design, position of trees, doglegs and such, 4 of those 5 holes favor one shot shape over another in my opinion.

As a necessity, I've developed the ability to "control" the shape - somewhat (relative to my skill level).

The left to right setup results in what's probably more of a slice. It's predictable and far more controllable but it's weak - probably averaging 200 yds.

The setup for a draw usually results in much less of a curve, averages 30 yards longer with a few results over 250 yds. But it's not as controllable. If I don't hook it, I feel like it's a decent swing and obviously the one I'd like to adapt as my default swing.

When I have a tree hanging over my line 175 yards on my right side, and trees lining the fairway on the left with plenty of fairway to the right, using a draw is more of a threading-the-needle type of shot (please see attached image of 502yd par 5). I hope you can see this hole favors a fade especial when considering the 2nd shot.

On the other hand, when a hole has water on the right, I can align towards it and feel confident that my draw will stay left.

By reading many of the posts by the pros and better players, it seems like I'm approaching this the wrong way. That the layout of the hole shouldn't have as much of an impact on my type of shot. I should have one shot shape that is my go-to shot.

My questions are, should I:

1. Continue trying to improve both shots (distance on fade, accuracy on draw)

2. Just concentrate on improving one or the other?

[DrvFrShow]

Thanks, Erik. I was thinking about learning how to shape shots, but I think I'll stick to just getting good at one thing - my stock shot - for now. When I've mastered that, I can get fancy.

[iacas]

1. Continue trying to improve both shots (distance on fade, accuracy on draw)

2. Just concentrate on improving one or the other?

Go with #2.

Unless there's something like a tree literally blocking your stock shot, people should play their stock shot 95% of the time, like a PGA Tour player. You can change the height now and then (not commonly done with a driver though), but stock curve direction 95% of the time.

Golf is hard enough as it is without trying to improve at TWO different versions of it.

[JonMA1]

Go with #2.

Will do. I want to develop the draw even though it's less consistent at present. I think the added distance will improve my game more so than the shorter accuracy (at least that's what I read in a pretty good book recently ).

Thank you.

[jamiesmith900]

Hi all Thanks for all great help I have progressed massively and hitting my irons so good compressing ball beautifully, can anyone give advice on a draw and fade shot? Iam currently setting up with my feet left of target and club face direct at target for a fade with some great results but draw slightly harder, am playing titleist 714mbs thanks:)

[saevel25]

Hi all

Thanks for all great help I have progressed massively and hitting my irons so good compressing ball beautifully, can anyone give advice on a draw and fade shot? Iam currently setting up with my feet left of target and club face direct at target for a fade with some great results but draw slightly harder, am playing titleist 714mbs thanks:)

I would stick with one ball flight. If you can hit target with a fade, stick with it.

For a draw you need to get your swing path more out. If you are aiming the clubface at the target and swinging to the left. You probably end up closing the fact slightly at impact to hit a pull fade (starts left and fades back to target). If not then you would be missing target to the right all day.

So to get a draw, you need to shift that path to the right, probably pretty far in comparison to your normal fade swing. This is probably why you are finding it hard to do.