Creamer and Shin play same playoff hole 8 times!

[TN94z]

During the Kingsmill Championship , Shin and Creamer finish tied and are forced to meet for playoff holes to determine the winner.  Well, after playing 8 playoff holes and returning to tee it up for a 9th time, it was decided that it was too dark to play.

Quote:

It’s unfortunate that we couldn’t change the pin or do something a little bit different,” Creamer said. “Next year I’m sure, and other tournaments down the road, they’ll probably change the rules about the playoff.”

So the winner will be decided this morning.

What should be done in this situation?  What rules could be changed?

[MSchott]

I guess they did this to accomadate the fans but it's not good golf to play the same hole again and again. You need to change the shot values. A par 3 thrown in the mix would allow for a needed precise iron shot or a short par 5 with a chance for birdie.

A lot of blame goes to the players as well. These are professional golfers and you'd think they would make a birdie given 8 chances to play the hole. I don't know how long the hole played for them but from the 6400 yard blue tees that hole is only about 370 yards so it's a short iron approach even for a LPGA player.

[iacas]

Changing the rules for playoffs because of a freak occurrence would be shortsighted and stupid.

Maybe Paula would re-think her statement given her lousy three-putt on the first different playoff hole today.

If anything the tournament should have played a series of holes in rotation (still sudden death though), but they're starved for fans and the fans they had were all at 18, so that's what hole they played.

If anything, I find it amusing that they switched and played hole 16 today. I thought the rules for playoffs had to be made known before the start of play on Thursday and then that's what the rules were. Surely the published rules didn't say "We will play 18 repeatedly until it's dark, and if we have to come back Monday, we'll play 16-18 in a loop as long as necessary."

P.S. During the coverage Paula pretty much hit every one of her tee shots to so small an area that Jerry Foltz was joking about it constantly. I think her yardages to the flag varied by about six yards maximum for eight tee shots. In 16 tries they didn't make ONE birdie or bogey. The fans would have rather seen a winner than go home without one, how's that thought, LPGA? Oh, and from 167, Paula hit a 5-iron, so even though the hole was barely 380 they didn't have short irons in. :(

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by iacas

Changing the rules for playoffs because of a freak occurrence would be shortsighted and stupid.

Maybe Paula would re-think her statement given her lousy three-putt on the first different playoff hole today.

If anything the tournament should have played a series of holes in rotation (still sudden death though), but they're starved for fans and the fans they had were all at 18, so that's what hole they played.

If anything, I find it amusing that they switched and played hole 16 today. I thought the rules for playoffs had to be made known before the start of play on Thursday and then that's what the rules were. Surely the published rules didn't say "We will play 18 repeatedly until it's dark, and if we have to come back Monday, we'll play 16-18 in a loop as long as necessary."

P.S. During the coverage Paula pretty much hit every one of her tee shots to so small an area that Jerry Foltz was joking about it constantly. I think her yardages to the flag varied by about six yards maximum for eight tee shots. In 16 tries they didn't make ONE birdie or bogey. The fans would have rather seen a winner than go home without one, how's that thought, LPGA? Oh, and from 167, Paula hit a 5-iron, so even though the hole was barely 380 they didn't have short irons in. :(

Agreed.  I like the idea of at least a 3 hole loop, but realize that the layout of some courses might make this difficult.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by iacas

Changing the rules for playoffs because of a freak occurrence would be shortsighted and stupid.

Maybe Paula would re-think her statement given her lousy three-putt on the first different playoff hole today.

If anything the tournament should have played a series of holes in rotation (still sudden death though), but they're starved for fans and the fans they had were all at 18, so that's what hole they played.

If anything, I find it amusing that they switched and played hole 16 today. I thought the rules for playoffs had to be made known before the start of play on Thursday and then that's what the rules were. Surely the published rules didn't say "We will play 18 repeatedly until it's dark, and if we have to come back Monday, we'll play 16-18 in a loop as long as necessary."

P.S. During the coverage Paula pretty much hit every one of her tee shots to so small an area that Jerry Foltz was joking about it constantly. I think her yardages to the flag varied by about six yards maximum for eight tee shots. In 16 tries they didn't make ONE birdie or bogey. The fans would have rather seen a winner than go home without one, how's that thought, LPGA? Oh, and from 167, Paula hit a 5-iron, so even though the hole was barely 380 they didn't have short irons in. :(

Thanks Erik. Was Creamer hitting driver off the tee? I know she's not long but a 213 yard drive? Must have been a 3 wood.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MSchott

Thanks Erik. Was Creamer hitting driver off the tee? I know she's not long but a 213 yard drive? Must have been a 3 wood.

Driver every time. Tee shots were to a spot that was 164 to 171 or so, IIRC. Middle of the fairway, too. Hole was 386 I think? So ~220-225.

[MSchott]

I wonder if this was into the wind? According the LPGA stats Creamer who is a short hitter to begin with averages 245 on her drives. Shin is slightly shorter at 242. This explains why they had a hard time making birdie on that hole but as you said, they were 0-16 which is poor.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by MSchott

A lot of blame goes to the players as well. These are professional golfers and you'd think they would make a birdie given 8 chances to play the hole.

Yes. They are very much responsible for this outrage and should be punished. I say that they should give the trophy to whoever came third.

I blame them too. Absolutely, and I am really mad about it.

BTW - it took John Huh 8 holes to beat Robert Allenby in a playoff earlier this year. And they didn't play the same hole over and over.

Oh........to the questions.

Nothing needs to be done.

No rule needs to be changed. What are you suggesting? That they toss a coin or something?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by MSchott

I wonder if this was into the wind? According the LPGA stats Creamer who is a short hitter to begin with averages 245 on her drives. Shin is slightly shorter at 242. This explains why they had a hard time making birdie on that hole but as you said, they were 0-16 which is poor.

They also played it 8 times each bogey free. Could anyone here do that?

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Yes. They are very much responsible for this outrage and should be punished. I say that they should give the trophy to whoever came third.

I blame them too. Absolutely, and I am really mad about it.

BTW - it took John Huh 8 holes to beat Robert Allenby in a playoff earlier this year. And they didn't play the same hole over and over.

Oh........to the questions.

Nothing needs to be done.

No rule needs to be changed. What are you suggesting? That they toss a coin or something?

I'd be happy to dole out the punishment to Ms. Creamer . I'm not suggesting anything be changed except it's not in the spirit of golf to play the same hole over and over again. Golf is about letting the lay of the land and skill of the players determine the outcome. Repeatedly playing the same hole is an expedient, not the proper way to play the game. We play 18 holes for a reason.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

They also played it 8 times each bogey free. Could anyone here do that?

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. We are not professional golfers. They are amongst the best in the world playing what for them was a medium length par 4. I'm just surprised that in 16 attempts they did not make one birdie. I'm pretty sure a scratch male from that yardage could do this with a 2 iron off of the tee. Me I'd be happy to make bogey each attempt.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by MSchott

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. We are not professional golfers. They are amongst the best in the world playing what for them was a medium length par 4. I'm just surprised that in 16 attempts they did not make one birdie. I'm pretty sure a scratch male from that yardage could do this with a 2 iron off of the tee. Me I'd be happy to make bogey each attempt.

So what is it that bothers you?  The fact that they both parred it 8 times in a row, or the fact that they played the same hole 8 times?  If they both birdied the hole 8 times in a row, would it still bother you?  Or, conversely, if they both parred 8 different holes in a row, would that bother you as well?

I didn't watch the tournament, and don't know the geography of the course, but agree with others that an ideal playoff route might be a 3 or 4 hole loop.  But, at the same time, i don't have a problem with the tournament having only one playoff hole either.  (Makes a whole lot of sense for the fans live, a little less for TV if they have to keep shuttling them back to the same tee.)  If they change the rules midstream, then that's pretty lame, and if they change the rules because of a fluke event like this, then that is lame as well.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by MSchott

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

They also played it 8 times each bogey free. Could anyone here do that?

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. We are not professional golfers. They are amongst the best in the world playing what for them was a medium length par 4. I'm just surprised that in 16 attempts they did not make one birdie. I'm pretty sure a scratch male from that yardage could do this with a 2 iron off of the tee. Me I'd be happy to make bogey each attempt.

If I was teeing off with a 3-iron, my second shot would be a sand wedge more often that not, but I still might not get 8 straight pars. It seems they were waiting for the other one to make a mistake. Not sure I doubt their skill level as much as their strategy. If I had a plane to catch and was not living cheque to cheque (e.g.Creamer), I'd be trying to hole it from the fairway.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MSchott

I wonder if this was into the wind? According the LPGA stats Creamer who is a short hitter to begin with averages 245 on her drives. Shin is slightly shorter at 242. This explains why they had a hard time making birdie on that hole but as you said, they were 0-16 which is poor.

No wind. Not a particularly tricky hole or green, either.

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

So what is it that bothers you?  The fact that they both parred it 8 times in a row, or the fact that they played the same hole 8 times?  If they both birdied the hole 8 times in a row, would it still bother you?  Or, conversely, if they both parred 8 different holes in a row, would that bother you as well?

I didn't watch the tournament, and don't know the geography of the course, but agree with others that an ideal playoff route might be a 3 or 4 hole loop.  But, at the same time, i don't have a problem with the tournament having only one playoff hole either.  (Makes a whole lot of sense for the fans live, a little less for TV if they have to keep shuttling them back to the same tee.)  If they change the rules midstream, then that's pretty lame, and if they change the rules because of a fluke event like this, then that is lame as well.

It bothers me that they played the same hole 8 times in a row. That is not the spirit of the game. Regarding the 16 pars, I'm just surprised that they couldn't do better although this was a match pay scenario and no one wanted to make the big mistake apparently.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by MSchott

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

So what is it that bothers you?  The fact that they both parred it 8 times in a row, or the fact that they played the same hole 8 times?  If they both birdied the hole 8 times in a row, would it still bother you?  Or, conversely, if they both parred 8 different holes in a row, would that bother you as well?

I didn't watch the tournament, and don't know the geography of the course, but agree with others that an ideal playoff route might be a 3 or 4 hole loop.  But, at the same time, i don't have a problem with the tournament having only one playoff hole either.  (Makes a whole lot of sense for the fans live, a little less for TV if they have to keep shuttling them back to the same tee.)  If they change the rules midstream, then that's pretty lame, and if they change the rules because of a fluke event like this, then that is lame as well.

It bothers me that they played the same hole 8 times in a row. That is not the spirit of the game. Regarding the 16 pars, I'm just surprised that they couldn't do better although this was a match pay scenario and no one wanted to make the big mistake apparently.

Actually playing the same hole over and over is pretty ridiculous. It could give one player a distinct advantage.

[utztech]

The only problem here is that they had to finish Monday.  To fix that they need to outlaw caddies lining up the players.  And the players need to be embarrassed that 12-year-olds can make it to the US Open, and 15-year-olds can win tournaments.  Why aren't there grown ladies that can beat 12 and 15 year old girls?

In all seriousness, now that I have ranted about what I really don't like on the LPGA, nothing needs to be done.  It was a rare occurrence that might happen every 40 years or so.

[One More Time]

What shocked me about this playoff, was that both of them was a club short of the pin 8 times in a row. As Erik said Creamer was hitting her tee shot with in 6 yards every time. I know long on this hole was big trouble, but I would think that they would figure out after coming up short every time (from the same distance) that they could hit one more club.