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mvmac

Johnny Miller on Davis Love's pics: "Historically we suck in The Ryder Cup"

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Johnny Miller today on the NBC/Golf Channel conference call shared his opinion regarding Captain Davis Love's captain's picks.  Basically focusing on Furyk without actually saying his name.  I think Johnny makes a good point in terms of not having guys with"losing experience", I think Davis made a bad pic with Furyk and should have gone with Bo Van Pelt.  I disagree that the last time the US played well was '08, the team didn't play badly in 2010, the Cup did come down to the last match against a very tough Euro team.

Quote:
I'm not a big believer in doing anything historical, because historically, we suck in The Ryder Cup.  I like new blood.  The bottom line is it shouldn't always be, you know, the ones ‑‑ I would say obviously Tiger and Stricker are really good, but besides that, you ought to just go with your gut feeling.  The U.S. just has not played well except for 2008.

I don't know if you can do anything historically.  People say, you have to pick people with experience; I don't want a guy on my team with losing experience.  I'd rather have a guy that's fresh and says I'm going to win.

I like the young blood personally.  I like it when the young guys sometimes get paired together instead of throwing them in with a veteran that's lost five straight Ryder Cups.
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Agree and disagree: Recent history 1979 to current time (since it's been all of Europe in the competition) USA 7 wins Europe 8 wins One tie: wouldn't call that sucking, I'd say evenly matched. Agree: When teams are evenly matched, strategy and the leader are more important. Furyk was a risky pick imo. going into the match, I'd say it's best to show positive support for the leader and his/her strategy. The captain picks have been selected, so the focus should be on how to best utilize the team. The proof is in the pudding; we will find out if his selections and strategy were wise at the end of the event.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

Johnny Miller today on the NBC/Golf Channel conference call shared his opinion regarding Captain Davis Love's captain's picks.  Basically focusing on Furyk without actually saying his name.  I think Johnny makes a good point in terms of not having guys with"losing experience", I think Davis made a bad pic with Furyk and should have gone with Bo Van Pelt.  I disagree that the last time the US played well was '08, the team didn't play badly in 2010, the Cup did come down to the last match against a very tough Euro team.

Quote:
I'm not a big believer in doing anything historical, because historically, we suck in The Ryder Cup.  I like new blood.  The bottom line is it shouldn't always be, you know, the ones ‑‑ I would say obviously Tiger and Stricker are really good, but besides that, you ought to just go with your gut feeling.  The U.S. just has not played well except for 2008.

I don't know if you can do anything historically.  People say, you have to pick people with experience; I don't want a guy on my team with losing experience.  I'd rather have a guy that's fresh and says I'm going to win.

I like the young blood personally.  I like it when the young guys sometimes get paired together instead of throwing them in with a veteran that's lost five straight Ryder Cups.

If the goal is to finish in the top 10, then Bo's your man. He has how many career PGA Tour wins now?

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Originally Posted by uttexas

Agree and disagree:

Recent history 1979 to current time (since it's been all of Europe in the competition)

USA 7 wins Europe 8 wins One tie: wouldn't call that sucking, I'd say evenly matched.

Well, more relevant to Johnny Miller's point is how well have THESE players done in the past.  No one who was on the 1979 Ryder Cup will be playing in this year's Cup.

Going back to 1995, which was the first year Phil played on the US Ryder Cup team, Europe has 6 Cup wins and we have 2.  4 cups were decided by 1 point.  From 2002 to 2006 we were beaten in 3 straight cups by a total of 21 points.

Those are the Cups these players remember.  Those are the Cups in which we most definitely sucked.

Interestingly enough, the only Cup during that stretch which we dominated was 2008 at Valhalla.  There were 6 rookies on that team:  Anthony Kim, Hunter Mahan, Ben Curtis, Boo Weekley, JB Holmes, Steve Stricker.

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Win or lose I doubt it will come down to JF.

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Originally Posted by Dave2512

Win or lose I doubt it will come down to JF.

It all depends on if he can make his 5HE last through the weekend.

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lol...

well, i think when it comes to the Ryder Cup it doesnt matter how well the americans have been playing.  i think europe wins because they care more about it and get more amped up.  its simply more important to them than it is to the americans.

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Anyone got any idea whether Tiger's latest bout of limping will affect his ability to play up to 36 holes a day? I know he'll want to do it, is he upto it though?
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Originally Posted by xxsoultonesxx

It all depends on if he can make his 5HE last through the weekend.

He has more energy, he's more energetic, and he's not as tired.

I think Miller is on to something though.  Most of these veteran players know how to lose the Ryder Cup.  It must bring a bad vibe to the locker room.  Incidentally, I bought into the line about Tiger's Ryder Cup record being poor until I saw the other American player's records.  Considering he has only been on one winning team (1999) it is amazing he is basically batting .500.

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Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

Anyone got any idea whether Tiger's latest bout of limping will affect his ability to play up to 36 holes a day?

I know he'll want to do it, is he upto it though?

Depends on how he's playing. Playing well, no limp. Playing badly, he won't be able to walk. Right out of the Michelle Wie excuse handbook...

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

If the goal is to finish in the top 10, then Bo's your man. He has how many career PGA Tour wins now?

For a match play competition like the Ryder Cup, I would rather have a guy who plays well enough each day to be Top 10 in a regular tour event (aka beating approximately 130 pros while losing to less than 10) rather than a guy who plays well enough to win a PGA Tour event one day and bad enough to miss the cut the next.

Luke Donald has been criticized in the past for not winning enough, but look at his match play record.  Assuming that they don`t have a propensity for choking, a consistently good player will do better in match play than a guy who fluctuates from great to ok/poor.

I wouldn`t have picked JF, but it is good that he has posted top 13s the past two weeks.  I like the USA`s chances but both teams are playing relatively good right now so it could certainly go either way.  Happy to see that Phil has found some form lately.

I`ll be interested to see how Keegan does.  He strikes me as a very good competitor but since the Masters, he has 6 finishes outside the top 58 (including 4 missed cuts) to go along with a win a t3 and 4 total top 25s in 14 events.  Seems like he closes well when he is on, but has a lot of off weeks.  Still, he has improved over last year when he missed 10 cuts.  His most consistent stretch this year was before the Masters when he had 9 straight top 25s including 3 top 10s and a t17 at the Match Play event (meaning he lost in the 2nd round).

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Originally Posted by MEfree

For a match play competition like the Ryder Cup, I would rather have a guy who plays well enough each day to be Top 10 in a regular tour event (aka beating approximately 130 pros while losing to less than 10) rather than a guy who plays well enough to win a PGA Tour event one day and bad enough to miss the cut the next.

Luke Donald has been criticized in the past for not winning enough, but look at his match play record.  Assuming that they don`t have a propensity for choking, a consistently good player will do better in match play than a guy who fluctuates from great to ok/poor.

I wouldn`t have picked JF, but it is good that he has posted top 13s the past two weeks.  I like the USA`s chances but both teams are playing relatively good right now so it could certainly go either way.  Happy to see that Phil has found some form lately.

I`ll be interested to see how Keegan does.  He strikes me as a very good competitor but since the Masters, he has 6 finishes outside the top 58 (including 4 missed cuts) to go along with a win a t3 and 4 total top 25s in 14 events.  Seems like he closes well when he is on, but has a lot of off weeks.  Still, he has improved over last year when he missed 10 cuts.  His most consistent stretch this year was before the Masters when he had 9 straight top 25s including 3 top 10s and a t17 at the Match Play event (meaning he lost in the 2nd round).

Luke Donald is a great match player because he's a great putter, and he knows that he has a great chance to get down in 2 from anywhere within 100 yards.  It can be demoralizing for a bomber to outdrive your opponent by 50 yards on every hole, but still have a longer putt.

Keegan will simply annoy the hell out of his opponent with his twitching and spitting.  How can anyone maintain concentration playing with that dude?

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Originally Posted by k-troop

Luke Donald is a great match player because he's a great putter, and he knows that he has a great chance to get down in 2 from anywhere within 100 yards.  It can be demoralizing for a bomber to outdrive your opponent by 50 yards on every hole, but still have a longer putt.

I agree that is part of it, but if he was inconsistent, he would not have as good a record.  Also, I would imagine that there are some bombing pros out there with the mental toughness to just play their own game.  Of course, a lot of the bombers are more inconsistent- if the PGA played 5 consecutive events at course set up for bombers in 2011 when he was hot, my guess is that a different bomber would win each week while Luke may have still posted the lowest overall score for the 20 rounds (with some of the winners missing the cut in the other events).

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Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

If the goal is to finish in the top 10, then Bo's your man. He has how many career PGA Tour wins now?

For a match play competition like the Ryder Cup, I would rather have a guy who plays well enough each day to be Top 10 in a regular tour event (aka beating approximately 130 pros while losing to less than 10) rather than a guy who plays well enough to win a PGA Tour event one day and bad enough to miss the cut the next.

Luke Donald has been criticized in the past for not winning enough, but look at his match play record.  Assuming that they don`t have a propensity for choking, a consistently good player will do better in match play than a guy who fluctuates from great to ok/poor.

I wouldn`t have picked JF, but it is good that he has posted top 13s the past two weeks.  I like the USA`s chances but both teams are playing relatively good right now so it could certainly go either way.  Happy to see that Phil has found some form lately.

I`ll be interested to see how Keegan does.  He strikes me as a very good competitor but since the Masters, he has 6 finishes outside the top 58 (including 4 missed cuts) to go along with a win a t3 and 4 total top 25s in 14 events.  Seems like he closes well when he is on, but has a lot of off weeks.  Still, he has improved over last year when he missed 10 cuts.  His most consistent stretch this year was before the Masters when he had 9 straight top 25s including 3 top 10s and a t17 at the Match Play event (meaning he lost in the 2nd round).

Using Luke Donald as an example of someone cosistently in the top 10 versus someone who consistently wins is like having your cake and eating it too. Bo Van Pelt is no Luke Donald.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

Using Luke Donald as an example of someone cosistently in the top 10 versus someone who consistently wins is like having your cake and eating it too. Bo Van Pelt is no Luke Donald.

I agree that Luke is a better player, but think that consistency does mean something when it comes to match play.  When it comes to Captain`s picks, you don`t often have a chance to pick a world #3.  At this pint, JF isn`t a Luke Donald either.

Since the last Ryder Cup, JF and BVP have combined for 0 offcial PGA Tour wins (with Bo winning 1.3 M for his unofficial Asia win last fall).  I would have picked BVP over JF because he had 9 top 10s, 15 top 25s and 3 missed cuts in 2012 compared to 6/12/4 for JF.

With Jim currently ranked #28 and Bo #25, it is a very close call, but hey, we are all entitled to opinions.

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Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Using Luke Donald as an example of someone cosistently in the top 10 versus someone who consistently wins is like having your cake and eating it too. Bo Van Pelt is no Luke Donald.

I agree that Luke is a better player, but think that consistency does mean something when it comes to match play.  When it comes to Captain`s picks, you don`t often have a chance to pick a world #3.  At this pint, JF isn`t a Luke Donald either.

Since the last Ryder Cup, JF and BVP have combined for 0 offcial PGA Tour wins (with Bo winning 1.3 M for his unofficial Asia win last fall).  I would have picked BVP over JF because he had 9 top 10s, 15 top 25s and 3 missed cuts in 2012 compared to 6/12/4 for JF.

With Jim currently ranked #28 and Bo #25, it is a very close call, but hey, we are all entitled to opinions.

I guess my original point was that someone "like" Bo Van Pelt would be less desirable TO ME than someone "like" Hunter Mahan.

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Originally Posted by sean_miller

I guess my original point was that someone "like" Bo Van Pelt would be less desirable TO ME than someone "like" Hunter Mahan.

Those two have played pretty similar schedules this season.  In the first 11 events that they both played, HM did better in 6 (including winning the Match Play event, which I do value) and BVP did better in 5.  In the last 8 events, Bo had a higher finish 7 times.  Seems like Bo is playing the better golf currently.

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Mahan has a better Ryder Cup record than anyone on this year's team.  It's a shame that all folks remember is the duffed chip.

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