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bigwave916

Penalty for picking up a ball and placing it. (in the rough)

19 posts in this topic

18th hole of a one day tournament. The rough is at least 4 inches deep and two of the guys in my foursome are playing well enough to be in the running for top finishing positions.

My cart partner hits a big high slice into the right hand rough.  While I'm sitting in the cart not 10 feet away, I see the guy reach for the ball and I thought he was trying to make sure it was his. Instead, he picks the damn thing up, moves it back about two feet and places it on a nice tuft of grass so it is sitting 2 inches above the sod.

I didn't say anything but when we went to turn scorecards in I couldn't hold myself back. I was out of the running, not going to get anything out of it but I was so pissed. I didn't want to sign the scorecard or have anything more to do with this guy or the tournament.

When I brought this to the attention of the Tour Director, I told him exactly what I saw and the guy claims, no way it was two feet it was only 3 inches.  It doesn't matter how far once you've picked up the ball that was lying in the rough.

Is the penalty disqualification?

Should I have called it immediately and let the rest of the foursome in on what I'd seen?

BTW, his score stands.....and he got second place.  All I got was a sick feeling of disgust and never wanting to play a competitive round of golf again. In 8 tournaments this is the second flagrant violation of the rules of golf that I've witnessed. I am 2 for 8, so how many incidents happen every tournament if I've seen 2 in just 8 tries?

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After further review (and if I understand the rule), this would come under 18-2 and the penalty would be 1 stroke, replace the ball in it's original position and play on. However, since I didn't call it on him before he made his next stroke, I guess he get's away with it. There's no way this guy didn't know he was breaking a rule and that's what makes me so angry. He tried to pull a fast one.

I had to spend 5 + hours with this SOB Listening to him brag about his homes at PGA West and Hilton Head, and somewhere else, I don't remember. All his years at the World Amateur and the Pro Am he played with Justin Leonard........then I see him cheat.

I'm going to let it go now, but I have no inclination to play in another tournament. I though charity scrambles were a joke, at least going in to those you know when you pay the entry that at leas half of the field is going to cheat in some way, shape, or form.

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Originally Posted by bigwave916

I didn't want to sign the scorecard

the guy claims, no way it was two feet it was only 3 inches.  It doesn't matter how far once you've picked up the ball that was lying in the rough.

Is the penalty disqualification?

.

You shouldn't have done

1 sp for moving it. Another for not replacing it. Possible Serious Breach and DQ

Yes for not including the penalties in his score.

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Originally Posted by bigwave916

After further review (and if I understand the rule), this would come under 18-2 and the penalty would be 1 stroke, replace the ball in it's original position and play on. However, since I didn't call it on him before he made his next stroke, I guess he get's away with it. There's no way this guy didn't know he was breaking a rule and that's what makes me so angry. He tried to pull a fast one.

No he doesn't get away with it just because you didn't say anything immediately.  If it was match play, then it's now too late to do anything about it, but you could have stated your intention to register a claim to your opponent before either of you played from the next tee, or as in this case, before you left the 18th green.  If it was stroke play, there is no statute of limitations until the competition is finished and the results posted.  He should have had 2 penalty strokes added, or if he returned an incorrect card, he should have been disqualified.

Personally, I'd have called it immediately when I saw him about to touch the ball.  If he had been trying to just identify it, he was still required to mark and lift, and he was also required to inform you of his intentions before he took any action.  Get a copy of the Rules of Golf and carry it with you.  The best way to learn the rules is to study a rule each day until you become familiar with each one.  I did that before I ever played in a competition, but too many players don't bother until they have an experience like yours, or worse, they are on the losing end of a breach of rule.

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I think the OP knew the rules were violated but wasn't comfortable calling the guy out at the moment it happened.  I've never been in this position, but I can see how it's awkward to call out someone for blatantly cheating during a tournament.  Not only will it cause bad feelings, there's the potential for it to escalate into a physical altercation if you don't know the person.

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Originally Posted by newtogolf

I think the OP knew the rules were violated but wasn't comfortable calling the guy out at the moment it happened.  I've never been in this position, but I can see how it's awkward to call out someone for blatantly cheating during a tournament.  Not only will it cause bad feelings, there's the potential for it to escalate into a physical altercation if you don't know the person.

I have no patience for cheaters, and really very patience little for those who are afraid to stand up to a cheater in that situation. In a tournament, each player has a responsibility to the field as well as to himself for not ignoring a blatant breach of the rules, whether it's deliberate or accidental.  You can be penalized yourself for tacit acceptance when you are aware of cheating and do nothing about it.

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It was on the 18th hole and the OP called it before the cards were turned in - that's "timely" in my book of definitions.  All the player had to do was add the two strokes before he turned in his scorecard, then there is no DQ.  But, the two strokes do need to be added!  I can't believe the Committee in charge of the competition wouldn't apply the Rules - certainly all of the players in the competition expect it to be played by all of the Rules!  Otherwise, as Kramer says, it's Chaos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4J5NBNp5k

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Originally Posted by rogolf

It was on the 18th hole and the OP called it before the cards were turned in - that's "timely" in my book of definitions.  All the player had to do was add the two strokes before he turned in his scorecard, then there is no DQ.  But, the two strokes do need to be added!  I can't believe the Committee in charge of the competition wouldn't apply the Rules - certainly all of the players in the competition expect it to be played by all of the Rules!  Otherwise, as Kramer says, it's Chaos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4J5NBNp5k

It is a stroke play competition.  The timing of the OP calling it is irrelevant because it is the PLAYER'S obligation to turn in a correct score.  The fact that the OP spoke of it to the tournament director is enough to fulfill his obligation.  And the fact that the player admitted that he moved the ball 3 inches, never replaced it, and did not include the penalty strokes in his score is enough to DQ him.  If the tournament director did not DQ the player then the tournament director should be reported to the governing golf association and should never be permitted to direct a tournament again, IMO.

Remember the situation a couple of years back when Michelle Wie made in improper drop?  A reporter brought it to the attention to the tournament officials the day after the cards were turned it, and when it turned out that she had made an improper drop she was DQed  THAT is how it is SUPPOSED to work.  If the tournament director in the OP's situation does not have the moral courage and fiber to do his job he should not be allowed to have his job.

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=2193534

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Originally Posted by turtleback

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogolf

It was on the 18th hole and the OP called it before the cards were turned in - that's "timely" in my book of definitions.  All the player had to do was add the two strokes before he turned in his scorecard, then there is no DQ.  But, the two strokes do need to be added!  I can't believe the Committee in charge of the competition wouldn't apply the Rules - certainly all of the players in the competition expect it to be played by all of the Rules!  Otherwise, as Kramer says, it's Chaos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ4J5NBNp5k

It is a stroke play competition.  The timing of the OP calling it is irrelevant because it is the PLAYER'S obligation to turn in a correct score.  The fact that the OP spoke of it to the tournament director is enough to fulfill his obligation.  And the fact that the player admitted that he moved the ball 3 inches, never replaced it, and did not include the penalty strokes in his score is enough to DQ him.  If the tournament director did not DQ the player then the tournament director should be reported to the governing golf association and should never be permitted to direct a tournament again, IMO.

Remember the situation a couple of years back when Michelle Wie made in improper drop?  A reporter brought it to the attention to the tournament officials the day after the cards were turned it, and when it turned out that she had made an improper drop she was DQed  THAT is how it is SUPPOSED to work.  If the tournament director in the OP's situation does not have the moral courage and fiber to do his job he should not be allowed to have his job.

http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/news/story?id=2193534

But the competition was still under way in the Wie case.  Had that been the Monday after the tournament, then the results would have stood.  In the OP's case, yes, he made the case to the committee in a timely manner, and if they failed to act on or investigate it, then shame on them.

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Here's an update to how this was finally handled. I got an email from the tournament director explaining that I had handled the situation properly. Some of you had mentioned that had it been earlier in the round it would need to be addressed sooner, but since it was on the 18th reporting it to the scorer's table and the tournament director was OK.

The player in question was not DQ'd but I still think he should have been. Tour Director reviewed the scorecard and it looked like the score on the last hole had been erased and corrected. Tour Director assumed that the player was adding a two stroke penalty.

As the marker for that player's card, I would think that any changes to the card after the marker signs it would have to be done by the tour director. If the player changed it he should be disqualifed even though he was trying to recover from being caught cheating. BTW, I checked leaderboard online and the 7 that I recorded for him was still there. A two stroke penalty would have made the score on the hole a 9.

For those of you who think I was afraid to say anything, the only thing I was afraid of was losing my cool and really going off on the guy. I was pissed even though I knew I was finishing closer to the bottom of the standings than I was from the top. By reporting it to the scorer's table there were a lot more people aware of it, so this assclown should now be on notice that people are aware of his cheating.

I lost my cool and all I wanted to do was report the incident and get the hell out of there. I didn't care about my finishing position, I didn't care if my card was correct, I didn't even give a shit that it was signed or not. My attitude at that moment was that I would not play with a bunch of cheaters so it just didn't matter anymore.

However, if this should ever happen in the future, I will speak up immediately. I will not sign a scorecard again that I don't believe is correct and is scored according to the rules of golf.

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I do want to add that my "bunch of cheaters" comment was how I felt at the time, not an indictment of all the players on the tour. I've played with some really great guys over 8 different events. Out of the 30 some players I've been paired with, I've only had two that I know cheated.

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In my opinion, 2 (that you know of) out of 30 is far too high of a percentage, and there might be a case for a "bunch of cheaters".  I'd expect less than 1 in a hundred, maybe two hundred.

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

But the competition was still under way in the Wie case.  Had that been the Monday after the tournament, then the results would have stood.  In the OP's case, yes, he made the case to the committee in a timely manner, and if they failed to act on or investigate it, then shame on them.


I understand.  But the OP reported the circumstances at the scorer's table, so the competition was still open.  I was (perhaps poorly) trying to make the point that it didn't matter of he reported it then or raised the issue out on the course when it was unfolding.

As the OP has updated the situation I think the committee was clearly irresponsible in assuming the player had added the penalty strokes rather than finding out the actual facts.

Even if the competition had closed I think Decision 34-1b/1.5 would apply and the player could still be DQed, since he knew he had incurred the penalty but still turned in an incorrect scorecard.

Q. In stroke play, A, in ignorance of the Rules and with the concurrence of B, his marker, removed a stone from a water hazard when his ball lay in the hazard. Subsequently, A was advised by C, a fellow-competitor, that he (A) was in breach of Rule 13-4 . A disagreed, failed to settle the doubtful point with the Committee at the end of the round and returned his score card without including a two-stroke penalty for a breach of Rule 13-4 .

After the competition had closed, C advised the Committee of the incident. Should A be disqualified?

A. Yes. Rule 34-1b says in effect that a competitor shall be disqualified after the competition has closed if he had returned a score, failing to include a penalty which, before the competition closed, he knew he had incurred. As C pointed out to A that he had proceeded incorrectly and A took no action to check whether he had incurred a penalty before returning his card, the Committee should decide that A knew that he had incurred a penalty.

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Originally Posted by turtleback

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

But the competition was still under way in the Wie case.  Had that been the Monday after the tournament, then the results would have stood.  In the OP's case, yes, he made the case to the committee in a timely manner, and if they failed to act on or investigate it, then shame on them.

I understand.  But the OP reported the circumstances at the scorer's table, so the competition was still open.  I was (perhaps poorly) trying to make the point that it didn't matter of he reported it then or raised the issue out on the course when it was unfolding.

As the OP has updated the situation I think the committee was clearly irresponsible in assuming the player had added the penalty strokes rather than finding out the actual facts.

Even if the competition had closed I think Decision 34-1b/1.5 would apply and the player could still be DQed, since he knew he had incurred the penalty but still turned in an incorrect scorecard.

Q.In stroke play, A, in ignorance of the Rules and with the concurrence of B, his marker, removed a stone from a water hazard when his ball lay in the hazard. Subsequently, A was advised by C, a fellow-competitor, that he (A) was in breach of Rule 13-4. A disagreed, failed to settle the doubtful point with the Committee at the end of the round and returned his score card without including a two-stroke penalty for a breach of Rule 13-4.

After the competition had closed, C advised the Committee of the incident. Should A be disqualified?

A.Yes. Rule 34-1b says in effect that a competitor shall be disqualified after the competition has closed if he had returned a score, failing to include a penalty which, before the competition closed, he knew he had incurred. As C pointed out to A that he had proceeded incorrectly and A took no action to check whether he had incurred a penalty before returning his card, the Committee should decide that A knew that he had incurred a penalty.

First off, had I been his marker, I would not have signed his card until the issue was resolved.  No way.  I would have taken the issue directly to the committee and if that pissed him off, then so be it.  He would not have even gotten his hands on the card until the issue had been resolved.  I might even have insisted that the card be signed and posted on the spot once the decision was rendered, so as not to give him another chance to change it again.  Cheaters cannot be trusted not to find a way to cheat.  Anyone doing what he did would have been summarily ejected from our Mens Club.

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Originally Posted by turtleback

I understand.  But the OP reported the circumstances at the scorer's table, so the competition was still open.  I was (perhaps poorly) trying to make the point that it didn't matter of he reported it then or raised the issue out on the course when it was unfolding.

As the OP has updated the situation I think the committee was clearly irresponsible in assuming the player had added the penalty strokes rather than finding out the actual facts.

Even if the competition had closed I think Decision 34-1b/1.5 would apply and the player could still be DQed, since he knew he had incurred the penalty but still turned in an incorrect scorecard.

Q.In stroke play, A, in ignorance of the Rules and with the concurrence of B, his marker, removed a stone from a water hazard when his ball lay in the hazard. Subsequently, A was advised by C, a fellow-competitor, that he (A) was in breach of Rule 13-4. A disagreed, failed to settle the doubtful point with the Committee at the end of the round and returned his score card without including a two-stroke penalty for a breach of Rule 13-4.

After the competition had closed, C advised the Committee of the incident. Should A be disqualified?

A.Yes. Rule 34-1b says in effect that a competitor shall be disqualified after the competition has closed if he had returned a score, failing to include a penalty which, before the competition closed, he knew he had incurred. As C pointed out to A that he had proceeded incorrectly and A took no action to check whether he had incurred a penalty before returning his card, the Committee should decide that A knew that he had incurred a penalty.

You do not have to go that far to find a reason for DQ. Regardless how you look at it the a***ole knew he was not turning in an incorrect score and should have been DQ'd. The tournament director is an incompetent dwrarf.

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Originally Posted by Ignorant

The tournament director is an incompetent dwrarf.

Even if spelt correctly, the use of that term as an insult is quite out of order.

Dwarfism is not a joke nor is a reason to assume that someone is incapable.

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He said he was an "incompetent" dwrarf, as opposed to all the competent dwrarves (not sure of the correct plural of dwrarf ) out there... He wasn't generalizing about ALL dwrarves, was he?

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Originally Posted by Fourputt

But the competition was still under way in the Wie case.  Had that been the Monday after the tournament, then the results would have stood.  In the OP's case, yes, he made the case to the committee in a timely manner, and if they failed to act on or investigate it, then shame on them.

I don't know that that's true.

Reference the story of Blayne Barber:

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/nov/05/blayne-barber-disqualifies-himself-six-days-after-/

Now, in that case, Barber disqualified himself, but the ruling would be the same had some reporter noticed that he penalized himself incorrectly and went to the USGA 6 days after the tournament.  It meshes perfectly with Decision 34-1b/1.5 that turtleback referenced.

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