Player survives First stage of Q-school but calls PGA TOUR office to Disqualify Himself

[newtogolf]

You're splitting hairs here.  Part of the referees judgment is to determine the intent of the player.  If the pitcher throws a fastball at a guys head after a player on his team was beaned during their last at bat the umpire is likely to throw the pitcher out of the game.  If the pitcher throws a curve ball that appears to get away from him, the umpire has the discretion to throw him out or not based on the pitchers intent.

Originally Posted by x129

The intent of the player doesn't matter. The judgement of the referee does. See yesterdays football game for an example of intent not mattering. The coach through a challenge flag to make sure a play was reviewed. I am sure he didn't intend on getting a 15 yard penalty and not having the play reviewed.  That rule is as dumb as any in golf.

Again the problem here has nothing to do with the leave moving or not. It has to do if you realize you submitted an incorrect scorecard what do you do? There is no judgement calls involved about if he did or did not hit a leaf. It is simply he signed for a score 1 less than what he shot.

[MEfree]

I don`t agree with every rule in golf and think that a 2 stroke penalty for touching a leaf is unduly penal, but agree with those that say the player`s intent doesn`t matter.

Here is how touching a leaf can give you an advantage over a player who doesn`t touch the same leaf-

Player A: takes his normal set-up with his club just above the sand and touches the leaf on the way back.

Player B: adjusts his normal set-up to avoid the leaf and doesn`t touch the leaf (but may not hit as good a shot because he is not used to the adjusted set up).

I would say that A gained an advantage over B by taking his normal set up...if he doesn`t touch the leaf, then it is fair for him to benefit from this, but not if he touches it.

[David in FL]

Did you promptly add on the penalty ?, or did you deem this unnecessary?

What do you mean by "deem this unnecessary"? Of course I added the penalty.

[x129]

I saw this on Golf.com .  If it is true, it puts the event in a totally different light. By playing 2 more rounds, he changed the event. Maybe someone was extra aggressive to try and make a cut line that was a shot lower than it really should have been.

[jclark]

This is called integrity!!

[Wansteadimp]

No as soon as he realised he was wrong would have been integrity, chewing it over for a couple of days is a guilty conscience.

[jclark]

In the end he did the right thing. He probably should have spoke up sooner but eventually he made it right......better late than never??

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by jclark

In the end he did the right thing. He probably should have spoke up sooner but eventually he made it right......better late than never??

That is true, but we shouldn't make a hero of the guy because he thought about cheating but then didn't do it.

[x129]

He didn't think about cheating. He cheated. There were at least 2 guys that didn't get to play the next round (i.e. they went back to europe) because of this guys cheating. It would be impossible to say how many changed their approach over the last 2 rounds in an attempt to meet a number that was lower than it was in reality. Obviously DQing your self is late is better than never, but failing to protect the field for 2 full rounds is pretty bad. He cheated and then decided that he couldn't deal with it.  That is better than cheating and not coming forward but it isn't something that a person with integrity would do.

Originally Posted by turtleback

That is true, but we shouldn't make a hero of the guy because he thought about cheating but then didn't do it.

[Dave H]

Originally Posted by x129

He didn't think about cheating. He cheated. There were at least 2 guys that didn't get to play the next round (i.e. they went back to europe) because of this guys cheating. It would be impossible to say how many changed their approach over the last 2 rounds in an attempt to meet a number that was lower than it was in reality. Obviously DQing your self is late is better than never, but failing to protect the field for 2 full rounds is pretty bad. He cheated and then decided that he couldn't deal with it.  That is better than cheating and not coming forward but it isn't something that a person with integrity would do.

Is that really cheating though? It's not like he intentionally broke a rule to gain an unfair advantage. I'm not necessarily saying I agree with how he went about things, but to say he cheated seems awfully strong. If you ask me, it's kind of a weird situation where the lines may not be so black and white. After he realized the scoring error, he may have been wondering in his mind things like, "did I really touch the leaf?, maybe I shouldn't have even penalized myself to begin with", etc. Again, I'm not saying I think he handled this perfectly (of course, to do so he would have correctly applied the penalty to begin with) but in my opinion I think there is some truth to "better late than never".

[Zeph]

He didn't "cheat" per se during the round, but he contemplated cheating when he realized it's a two shot penalty. Writing a wrong number is an honest mistake, though not one you should do at that level. Wondering what to do about the knowledge that you signed an incorrect scorecard is the problem here. He should have called the PGA Tour immediately when he realized he'd given himself the wrong penalty. He thought about it for some time, perhaps wondering if he'd get away with it, if he could live with it. He gave himself the penalty at the course, so that decision was already over with. If he didn't touch the leaf, he wouldn't have given himself the penalty in the first place. Either way, a one shot penalty is wrong and the scorecard is incorrect. It's a good thing he called them of course, but he waited too long. Better late than never, yes, but what if he came to peace with not reporting the error? He obviously had some doubts and considered not telling them. Which means he could have ended up not telling them.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Zeph

He didn't "cheat" per se during the round, but he contemplated cheating when he realized it's a two shot penalty.

It's a good thing he called them of course, but he waited too long. Better late than never, yes, but what if he came to peace with not reporting the error? He obviously had some doubts and considered not telling them. Which means he could have ended up not telling them.

Exactly.  Reading the quotes in the first post makes it sound like he contemplating not reporting it because he was revisiting the issue of whether he really hit the leaf.  It was almost like he was thinking that since he had some doubt about whether he hit the leaf maybe it was OK to only charge the one stroke.  Which is contemplating cheating, pure and simple.  You don't get to negotiate with or compromise with the rules.

[x129]

He did cheat during the tournament. He played 2 rounds when he knew he should have been DQed. By playing those rounds when he should not affected the outcome of this tournament. He failed in his duty to protect the integrity of the field.

Originally Posted by Zeph

He didn't "cheat" per se during the round, but he contemplated cheating when he realized it's a two shot penalty.

Writing a wrong number is an honest mistake, though not one you should do at that level.

Wondering what to do about the knowledge that you signed an incorrect scorecard is the problem here. He should have called the PGA Tour immediately when he realized he'd given himself the wrong penalty. He thought about it for some time, perhaps wondering if he'd get away with it, if he could live with it. He gave himself the penalty at the course, so that decision was already over with. If he didn't touch the leaf, he wouldn't have given himself the penalty in the first place. Either way, a one shot penalty is wrong and the scorecard is incorrect.

It's a good thing he called them of course, but he waited too long. Better late than never, yes, but what if he came to peace with not reporting the error? He obviously had some doubts and considered not telling them. Which means he could have ended up not telling them.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by x129

He did cheat during the tournament. He played 2 rounds when he knew he should have been DQed. By playing those rounds when he should not affected the outcome of this tournament. He failed in his duty to protect the integrity of the field.

I'd say that is a little unclear as there are conflicting reports.  The original story said it happened in the final round and that golf.com link you gave says it happened in the 2nd round.  I agree with yu that if the golf.com account is correct it puts the guy in a much worse light - one in which some disciplinary action would be warranted.