Can someone explain how to hit a draw?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by limoric

I'm not going to disagree with you, but I will disagree with the assertion that one cannot start the ball right with a closed club face; at least the perception (or past preconception) that it's closed and that is what I'm really talking about.

Closed to the path? Sure. Closed to the target? Not if you want a playable shot, no. No "assertions" here - just facts.

All playable draws for a righty are struck with a clubface pointing right of the target and a path farther to the right (i.e. so the clubface is closed to the path).

All playable fades for a righty are struck with a clubface pointing left of the target and a path farther to the left (i.e. so the clubface is open to the path).

Originally Posted by limoric

As you can see by the way I wrote my original reply to the OP, to me it's about feel, the perception created by the brain and the exact same thing can be said about the conventional thinking, despite the fact that scientifically something else is happening. The club face may very well account for 85% of the balls direction at impact, but try to convince Nick Faldo of this; you may be right and he may admit that you're right, but he is not going to stop thinking swing path.

As someone else said, the OP is not Nick Faldo. He has not hit a few million golf balls for his brain to be over-ridden by his body. Understanding the ball flight laws is an impediment to learning and improving your golf swing. I like to remove impediments.

Feel is not real, as Harmonious loves to point out while simultaneously complaining about these threads yet posting in them every time ( ), but I would rather people come up with feels based on what the club and path should actually be doing rather than thinking that the fix for their slice is to roll the hands more and trying to re-create THAT feel, which is far more likely to lead them nowhere than trying to "feel" a path more to the right.

Originally Posted by limoric

Again, I'm not saying that the 85/15 principle is not fact, I'm saying that it doesn't matter to me and the majority of the golf world. I also don't think all golfers, regardless of talent can wrap their heads around it. But certainly, those who can put themselves in the write frame of mind would most likely benefit.

I believe it matters a good deal.

If you're a PGA Tour player struggling with hitting pull-draws, the common (wrong) thing to say is that you "came over the top of it." So being a good student and in need of a made cut, you work on the feeling of sending your path more to the right....... which only makes the hook worse. The real problem, if you want to play a push-draw, is that your clubface is pointing left of the target at impact (with a path to the right of that face). The real problem if you want to play a pull-fade is that your path is too far to the right and you NEED to "come over the top" MORE (swing left more).

To a new player and not a PGA Tour player, who will often know that something isn't working within the first 10 swings or so, he can go so far down the road of trying the precisely wrong fix that he'll never recover, or will have a LONG road to recovery.

Originally Posted by limoric

So now that the OP knows 85% of the swing accounts for ball direction, he should hopefully be able to work the ball left and right at will within a few weeks.

Well I can tell you this: he'll have a clearer idea what the clubface should actually be doing at impact, and what his path should actually be doing. His feels to achieve these things may be bizarre and unusual. When I say "feel ain't real" for example, in this case he might feel like he's swinging to first base, 45° to the right, just to get his path to be 3° to the right. He might feel like his right elbow is in front of his belly button at impact when it's still barely in front of his right hip. He might feel like his hips are 20° closed at impact when they're 30° open.

That's how feel isn't real. Feel produces real changes, but the feels are often exaggerated and sometimes flat out incorrect relative to what's actually happening.

---

To summarize:

- Understanding the proper ball flights removes an impediment, both to improving long term and to immediate ball flight fault-fixing.*

- "Feel ain't real" applies to every golfer, not just those who don't understand the ball flight laws.

* Very few people have the luxury of being able to hit enough balls that their body learns to over-ride what their brain tells them is correct.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Originally Posted by limoric

Thanks for the schooling there Myrtle; If we ever play together, I'll still give you 8 strokes...

And I'd be happy to take the 8 strokes.  I'm not sure which is worse, a 13 index who actually knows the ball flight laws or a 5 index who doesn't.

Your initial post clearly states that with a closed face and an in to out swing your ball will start out to the right, on the line with your swing path.  There is no need to argue this, because the only way your ball will start out to the right, in line with your swing path, is if your face is square to your swing path.  There is no debate about it.  Its plain physics.  And its fact.

I apologize for calling your post funny.  That was a judgement error on my part.  But the reality is, your statement is just dead wrong.  Sorry to say it.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf

And I'd be happy to take the 8 strokes.  I'm not sure which is worse, a 13 index who actually knows the ball flight laws or a 5 index who doesn't.

Your initial post clearly states that with a closed face and an in to out swing your ball will start out to the right, on the line with your swing path.  There is no need to argue this, because the only way your ball will start out to the right, in line with your swing path, is if your face is square to your swing path.  There is no debate about it.  Its plain physics.  And its fact.

I apologize for calling your post funny.  That was a judgement error on my part.  But the reality is, your statement is just dead wrong.  Sorry to say it.

I think he's admitted to this and reframed it as a "feel." I think it's wrong at this point to continue to say he doesn't know them. I think he's learned.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Originally Posted by iacas

I think he's admitted to this and reframed it as a "feel." I think it's wrong at this point to continue to say he doesn't know them. I think he's learned.

I completely agree.  And I can understand the "feel" thing.  Obviously the majority of professional golfers and instructors are still using that same way of thinking.

[CAC Handed G]

Aim your feet, hips, shoulders to the extent of req ball path. Aim club face to target. The more closed the bigger the draw. Feels weird at first but works. Dave CAC handed Geordie.

[14ledo81]

Aim your feet, hips, shoulders to the extent of req ball path. Aim club face to target. The more closed the bigger the draw. Feels weird at first but works. Dave CAC handed Geordie.

Did you read any of the previous posts?

[CAC Handed G]

Sorry, new to site. Had probs navigating. Dave CAC handed Geordie. Will look in future.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Did you read any of the previous posts?

Seemingly not. :) Oh well.

[inthehole]

All this discussion of open/closed clubfaces relative to swing paths is making my head hurt.     In really simple terms, the easiest way for me to hit a draw is to really flatten the swing plane.    Drop it way down & I bet you'll draw it ... I'm not a good golfer, and stumbled onto this through my development this year through much trial and error, but it works EVERY time for me - can't yet control the degree of draw, but one thing's for certain, she's gonna draw if I drop the swing plane down flatter  (not sure why it works, it just does - maybe somebody could explain it ??)

[limoric]

Originally Posted by iacas

I think he's admitted to this and reframed it as a "feel." I think it's wrong at this point to continue to say he doesn't know them. I think he's learned.

The funny thing is, we are agreeing with the process more than we are disagreeing. My very first post stated very clearly that when I draw the ball, my face starts open and right to the target, the opposite is true for a fade. It was a later post in which I stated I disagreed that you cannot start the ball right with a closed face (closed to what is the question, I did not elaborate). So at the end of the day, you explained the process by which I work the ball, I've managed to feel my way into the correct position, I'm only one of many examples who figured it out this way. I will agree with you that for some and I wouldn't know the ratio, they need a more technical understanding. I have a friend who's like this, he's anal about the technical side and I don't know that he'll ever be better than a 25 handicap, it takes him literally 30 seconds to hit every shot...

BTW, the reference to Faldo was for you, not the OP. You see, I actually followed the link you provided and references were made, I thought you'd pick up on it. Where I do disagree with you; is that Faldo and the the other greats of the game have had it wrong all along. I think their explanation could be technically wrong, put the reasoning was and still is correct; otherwise, Faldo, Seve, etc, would not have been amazingly creative ball strikers. Their methodology did not prevent their students from learning. Is your way better? Perhaps. I and likely a few others don't care as much how it works, as long as it does work...(I know, I come across as a dinosaur)

Now Myrtle, I never once said the face was closed to the target line. Another poster (scratch handicap), picked up that I meant closed to the swing path and Erik has acknowledged that is possible, as he picked up on it too. You still think I'm wrong, when I'm actually in agreement. They picked up on it, because they are good players, regardless of their understanding of the fundamentals. In a year I'll be near scratch as I'll be taking my first lessons ever with an ex-tour player; I've taken my game as far as it will go without a coach. I don't say this to brag, I actually think I'm a poor player, as I compare my game to the lower handicap players I compete against. What's worse, a mid handicap understanding the ball flight laws better or a "pretty good" player understanding the technical science worse? I think the answer to that question lies in your index. I don't say this to put you down, but ask yourself another question. What do you think the ratio is in understanding the technical side of the ball flight laws between low handicaps and mid handicaps? In my experience, the good players just play, the mid handicaps just won't shut up about why such and such happened the way it did. Go play a few Pepsi Tour events, you'll see what I mean...

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Originally Posted by limoric

Now Myrtle, I never once said the face was closed to the target line. Another poster (scratch handicap), picked up that I meant closed to the swing path and Erik has acknowledged that is possible, as he picked up on it too. You still think I'm wrong, when I'm actually in agreement. They picked up on it, because they are good players, regardless of their understanding of the fundamentals. In a year I'll be near scratch as I'll be taking my first lessons ever with an ex-tour player; I've taken my game as far as it will go without a coach. I don't say this to brag, I actually think I'm a poor player, as I compare my game to the lower handicap players I compete against. What's worse, a mid handicap understanding the ball flight laws better or a "pretty good" player understanding the technical science worse? I think the answer to that question lies in your index. I don't say this to put you down, but ask yourself another question. What do you think the ratio is in understanding the technical side of the ball flight laws between low handicaps and mid handicaps? In my experience, the good players just play, the mid handicaps just won't shut up about why such and such happened the way it did. Go play a few Pepsi Tour events, you'll see what I mean...

I guess we started out on the wrong foot.  My apologies.  I know you understand how to hit a draw.  I was never under the assumption that you couldn't execute the shot.

As for the Pepsi Tour events comment, lol.  Just sounds funny.  What you fail to realize is that I'm average golfer who is lucky to play 3 rounds per month.  I have a decent understanding of the game, know my way around the course, and try to keep mistakes to the minimum.  I have less than 20 rounds this year.  Not only do I not participate in competitive tournaments, but I never once even considered it.

Good luck on getting from 5.8 to scratch.  Quite a difficult journey you have in front of you.

[iacas]

limoric,

I don't care for the revisionist history. It's right there - you said the swing path will push the ball out to the right, and several other comments that made it very clear you believed the ball started on the path. You understood things incorrectly. There's no shame in that, and maybe you learned. I disagree that knowing the proper reasons why the ball flies the way it does is not being "more technical." As I said knowing them simply removes an impediment to progress. I understood the Faldo references, and responded to them - 99% of golfers don't have the time for their bodies to learn that their brain is flat out wrong. And if knowing the ball flight laws made someone so "technical" don't you think Nick Faldo of all people might have gotten them down? Everyone's a feel player - you missed that part. Even Nick Faldo. And even those who have them right.

I knew exactly what you were saying, and now you're trying to re-paint the canvas. Again, good on you for possibly learning and admitting that you were wrong to begin with. Shame on you for trying to rewrite history to say that you were just "agreeing but saying it differently" or whatever.

I'd also be glad Myrtle is apparently a really nice guy, because what you said to him was pretty darn rude. You're a 5.8 index. You want to bag on other people's indexes? Guess what? A 5.8 isn't that good, and you're way, way, way closer to a 12.8 than you are to me.

/thread