To fluff or not to fluff?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

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Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

I think it is ridiculous for some one who shoots over 110 all the time to worry about playing by all the rules. It slows up the pace of play for all.  If someone can not advance the ball even off a beautiful middle of the fairway position then I think they should put the ball in the fair way from about where in went and hit again. They learn nothing from hitting off bad lies. And as I said it slows up the game.

I agree.

I have small hands so I refuse to dribble the ball when I play basketball. Rules are just for the pros and other experts. I enjoy the game just the same......why would I ever care about getting better?

My point is that you do not get better from playing from bad lies if you can not yet play from good ones. You would improve much more by playing all your shots from good  lies until you can make good contact most of the time. Then work on sand, rough divots etc  unless you are posting a score there will be plenty of time to play by the rules after you learn to play the golf swing.  I am now playing the golf swing and no longer playing golf. Even though I can shoot in the high 80-mid 90s I learn to do so with a very bad swing and a better than average short game. I wish I would have decided to play golf swing a long time ago and not worry about playing golf. Until I hand learn the swing.

That isn't really true.  Since you have to pay attention and concentrate harder to hit a ball from a poor lie, it can't help but make you better with all of your shots.  This is just one of the many rationalizations we see every time this topic comes up.  You may be able to fool yourself into believing it, but that doesn't make it true.  It goes hand in hand with rolling the ball out of a bad lie in pebbles or roots and not taking the penalty stroke because you feel that it's unfair, that you didn't deserve such a lie from what you felt was a great shot.  As I said above, just because you think you made a good swing, the game doesn't guarantee you a good result.

Golf is a game of constant adjustment, and one of those adjustments is learning to hit from all sorts of lies, good - bad, and everywhere in between.  Until you start playing those shots, you will never learn how to play them.

[SloverUT]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

That isn't really true.  Since you have to pay attention and concentrate harder to hit a ball from a poor lie, it can't help but make you better with all of your shots.  This is just one of the many rationalizations we see every time this topic comes up.  You may be able to fool yourself into believing it, but that doesn't make it true.  It goes hand in hand with rolling the ball out of a bad lie in pebbles or roots and not taking the penalty stroke because you feel that it's unfair, that you didn't deserve such a lie from what you felt was a great shot.  As I said above, just because you think you made a good swing, the game doesn't guarantee you a good result.

Golf is a game of constant adjustment, and one of those adjustments is learning to hit from all sorts of lies, good - bad, and everywhere in between.  Until you start playing those shots, you will never learn how to play them.

I disagree with you.  I don't fail to hit good shots because of a lack of concentration.  So trying to concentrate more isn't all of a sudden going to make me hit a really good shot out of a bad lie, particuarly because I am always 100% concentrated before I take a swing.

But this argument isn't going anywhere because everyone will always have differing opinions.  It is just like the walk vs take a cart argument.  There are purists and then there are those who don't really care either way.

Bottom line:  Play the game how you want to play and quit worrying about everyone else.  If it isn't effecting your pace of play, damaging the course, or a competition then what others do should not bother you.

[VegasRenegade]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

I think it is ridiculous for some one who shoots over 110 all the time to worry about playing by all the rules. It slows up the pace of play for all.  If someone can not advance the ball even off a beautiful middle of the fairway position then I think they should put the ball in the fair way from about where in went and hit again. They learn nothing from hitting off bad lies. And as I said it slows up the game.

I agree.

I have small hands so I refuse to dribble the ball when I play basketball. Rules are just for the pros and other experts. I enjoy the game just the same......why would I ever care about getting better?

My point is that you do not get better from playing from bad lies if you can not yet play from good ones. You would improve much more by playing all your shots from good  lies until you can make good contact most of the time. Then work on sand, rough divots etc  unless you are posting a score there will be plenty of time to play by the rules after you learn to play the golf swing.  I am now playing the golf swing and no longer playing golf. Even though I can shoot in the high 80-mid 90s I learn to do so with a very bad swing and a better than average short game. I wish I would have decided to play golf swing a long time ago and not worry about playing golf. Until I hand learn the swing.

That isn't really true.  Since you have to pay attention and concentrate harder to hit a ball from a poor lie, it can't help but make you better with all of your shots.  This is just one of the many rationalizations we see every time this topic comes up.  You may be able to fool yourself into believing it, but that doesn't make it true.  It goes hand in hand with rolling the ball out of a bad lie in pebbles or roots and not taking the penalty stroke because you feel that it's unfair, that you didn't deserve such a lie from what you felt was a great shot.  As I said above, just because you think you made a good swing, the game doesn't guarantee you a good result.

Golf is a game of constant adjustment, and one of those adjustments is learning to hit from all sorts of lies, good - bad, and everywhere in between.  Until you start playing those shots, you will never learn how to play them.

I did not say you should not take the penalty strokes.  Here is how I see it. If you are playing alone on an empty course or at least no one in pushing and you think you will improve by hacking at the ball four times in the Tall grass. Then topping it onto the fairway Then slicing it back into the rough. More power to you. But If you are holding up the game of those in your group or behind you pick up your bad lie put in the fairway count the stroke and hit your next shot. Or at the very least pick up and take a 10 at most. I am not saying to fudge your score although if you want to go ahead I do not care.  You do learn how to play golf from playing by the rules, If you  can't hit out of the sand you learn to stay away from the sand. If you  always slice into the woods you learn to aim left and pray. All the extra focus in the world will not improve your swing if it is bad. only perfect practice will do that.

Then there are these situations

My group normally plays a mulligan on the first T if no one is behind us. Is it against the rules yes. Why do we do it. Our normal course does not have a range so no one can warm up. So we bend this rule.

[Dave2512]

The people I see improving lies aren't the extreme example above. It's the guy that fluffs it in the rough, rolls it off a bare spot or moves the ball back into the fairway when it rolled into the first cut after a decent drive. I'm pretty sure that's what Fourputt is talking about. Nothing in his post suggests he advocates delays due to hacking balls out of knee deep grass.

A common one I see is people moving the ball away from the rough after their ball rolled off the green up to the edge of the fringe. It's a tough shot. Either you take the chance you'll hit a perfect chip, hit a wedge with a putting stroke and try to strike the ball in the middle or risk snagging the putter in the grass. Either way it's a shot that requires skill and creativity to do well and until you attempt it you have no idea if you can pull it off. Personally I'd rather risk making a mistake than moving the ball to make it easy in an attempt to preserve a bogus score. Nothing inspires me more than failure and the effort spent to overcome it. I suppose everyone plays for different reasons but one of the most exciting things about golf is executing a difficult shot. It's an integral part of the game. It's why we are dazzled by the pros.

[VegasRenegade]

Originally Posted by Dave2512

The people I see improving lies aren't the extreme example above. It's the guy that fluffs it in the rough, rolls it off a bare spot or moves the ball back into the fairway when it rolled into the first cut after a decent drive. I'm pretty sure that's what Fourputt is talking about. Nothing in his post suggests he advocates delays due to hacking balls out of knee deep grass.

A common one I see is people moving the ball away from the rough after their ball rolled off the green up to the edge of the fringe. It's a tough shot. Either you take the chance you'll hit a perfect chip, hit a wedge with a putting stroke and try to strike the ball in the middle or risk snagging the putter in the grass. Either way it's a shot that requires skill and creativity to do well and until you attempt it you have no idea if you can pull it off. Personally I'd rather risk making a mistake than moving the ball to make it easy in an attempt to preserve a bogus score. Nothing inspires me more than failure and the effort spent to overcome it. I suppose everyone plays for different reasons but one of the most exciting things about golf is executing a difficult shot. It's an integral part of the game. It's why we are dazzled by the pros.

Yes that is a very different thing and if that is what we are talking about I agree with you.  The Score is not valid if the rules are not followed.  But if we are not playing for money you game is your game play it as you like.   I agree that those shots need to be attempted to be learned.  My favorite example is a creek bed on my local course that at certain times of the year turns into a MUD pie.  A ball will many times sit on it and it looks like you should be able to play it out.  I have learned from a very muddy experience that you should not play it like a sand shot.

[Dave2512]

I'm not sure what others are talking about but that's my interpretation. I get why someone doesn't want to hit off roots, rocks, whatever and I don't either. It's part of the game and fortunately the ROG makes the decision easy. Take the unplayable lie penalty and move on. That said I've only played a few courses where a bad lie would require doing something really difficult, hitting out of overly long grass etc. Most of the time those types of things are only encountered in hazards here. If the ball is on the course and not in a hazard the worst I see is what I described earlier. Bad luck, bare spots, deep rough, divots etc.

My home course is built around gas wells. To the side of some fairways there are areas of what would be the native land that surrounds the wells but ins't OB. Hit a ball into that and it means hitting off hard dirt or whacking it out of the weeds and prairie grass. It's a bummer but I usually just take short iron and play it as far forward as I can and land it back in the grass. Sometimes I make it back to the fairway, sometimes I don't. I know I'll be making a bogey or worse here and there before I get there. Part of the deal for a mid capper. That's why pars and birdies feel so good. Helps to get that stroke back after a few bad shots. Heck I don't like hitting out of the crappy sand they have in the bunkers there. There's enough small rocks in it to make me think twice about defacing my clubs.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

Yes that is a very different thing and if that is what we are talking about I agree with you.  The Score is not valid if the rules are not followed.  But if we are not playing for money you game is your game play it as you like.   I agree that those shots need to be attempted to be learned.  My favorite example is a creek bed on my local course that at certain times of the year turns into a MUD pie.  A ball will many times sit on it and it looks like you should be able to play it out.  I have learned from a very muddy experience that you should not play it like a sand shot.

Thanks for the laugh.  I almost fell out of my chair.  I have been there with you on that one.  We have a small (about 8 feet wide and 4 feet deep) irrigation ditch that winds through my home course in Colorado.  In the winter they close the gate and it dries up, but rain and snow collect in it, so in the spring when the ground thaws it gets very muddy, but doesn't look as bad as it is.  I've not only played that mud shot and worn the results for the remainder of the round, but a buddy took a swing in there once and his feet went one way while the rest of him went the other - he was mud from neck to shoes.  To his credit, he got the ball out and advanced it about 30 yards, but I'm not sure it was worth saving a penalty stroke.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by saevel25

Depends on the condition of the course. Especially the course i play league in. There are some areas that just look like ground under repair compared to the other areas. The course really has some drainage problems in some areas, so wet springs and harsh dry summers really take its tole, and with the amount of play the course gets, it gets pretty beat up. So if my ball is in a really bad area of the fairway i might at least give my self some grass.

Same here.  On a course in decent or better shape I'll always play the ball exactly as it lies according to the rules.  But one of my regular courses is just in terrible condition off the greens (greens are in great shape for a muni ironically).  It's so bad that lots of the landing areas in the fairway are literally rock hard, no grass, dirt baked into concrete by the sun and inadequate watering.  If I hit a nice tee shot in the fairway and get up to my ball and it's sitting on concrete sprinkled with little rocks, I'll take a free drop in the nearest part of the fairway with real grass, not closer to the hole.

Also, when it's been really wet and my ball is coming to rest covered with mud chunks and a nice brown patina, I'll play lift clean and place when I'm in the fairway.  This is fairly rare in SoCal.  And I won't ever do this on a regular day.

[VegasRenegade]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

Yes that is a very different thing and if that is what we are talking about I agree with you.  The Score is not valid if the rules are not followed.  But if we are not playing for money you game is your game play it as you like.   I agree that those shots need to be attempted to be learned.  My favorite example is a creek bed on my local course that at certain times of the year turns into a MUD pie.  A ball will many times sit on it and it looks like you should be able to play it out.  I have learned from a very muddy experience that you should not play it like a sand shot.

Thanks for the laugh.  I almost fell out of my chair.  I have been there with you on that one.  We have a small (about 8 feet wide and 4 feet deep) irrigation ditch that winds through my home course in Colorado.  In the winter they close the gate and it dries up, but rain and snow collect in it, so in the spring when the ground thaws it gets very muddy, but doesn't look as bad as it is.  I've not only played that mud shot and worn the results for the remainder of the round, but a buddy took a swing in there once and his feet went one way while the rest of him went the other - he was mud from neck to shoes.  To his credit, he got the ball out and advanced it about 30 yards, but I'm not sure it was worth saving a penalty stroke.

The next time I used a fairway wood bump and run  and i only got my shoes dirty and the ball ran about 50 yards up to the front of the green.

[scottothegreat]

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

The next time I used a fairway wood bump and run  and i only got my shoes dirty and the ball ran about 50 yards up to the front of the green.

At one of my local coarses there is a little creek (3 feet wide) that I have seen numerous people take a shot out of my favorite was during a school match my friend tries to hit it out and splatters mud on our oponents needless to say they weren't very pleased.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

My point is that you do not get better from playing from bad lies if you can not yet play from good ones. You would improve much more by playing all your shots from good  lies until you can make good contact most of the time. Then work on sand, rough divots etc  unless you are posting a score there will be plenty of time to play by the rules after you learn to play the golf swing.  I am now playing the golf swing and no longer playing golf. Even though I can shoot in the high 80-mid 90s I learn to do so with a very bad swing and a better than average short game. I wish I would have decided to play golf swing a long time ago and not worry about playing golf. Until I hand learn the swing.

Even when I was just starting and sucked even worse than I do now I relished the challenge of hitting out of bad lies.  I always looked at it that playing it as it lies and accepting the good and bad breaks that occur was at the very heart of the game.  It is why they say that golf reveals character.  But that is just me.

Originally Posted by SloverUT

I disagree with you.  I don't fail to hit good shots because of a lack of concentration.  So trying to concentrate more isn't all of a sudden going to make me hit a really good shot out of a bad lie, particuarly because I am always 100% concentrated before I take a swing.

I had a strange round Sunday.  I was hitting it decent, but I couldn't score worth a damn.  After about 12 holes I realized that my focus just was not there for one or two shots per hole.  And then, much as I tried to bear down on every shot for the rest of the round I would hit a shot and then realize that I just wasn't properly focused.  It was kind of weird.  I don't remember that happening to me before.

[VegasRenegade]

The more I focus the bleary things get.