Jump to content
IGNORED

What do all good ball strikers have in common when they look so different?


gwlee7
Note: This thread is 4098 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Stretch's my swing thread started getting off topic when discussion turned to several pros who swing differently yet all are successful.  I need to put out the disclaimer that I work with the Golf Evlolution/5SK guys so I have my own ideas.

I would be interested in what others around here have to say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator

I think my answers are pretty obvious. They do five things pretty well. :)

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I would suggest not only do they do five things well, the things they do are quite simple.

PB
Canadian PGA Life Member
Peter Boyce Golf Academy
Strathroy, Ontario
:tmade:

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Moderator
Originally Posted by Harmonious

They consistently contact the ball in the center of the clubface. Time after time after time.

Or close to it.  I can think of three pros currently playing that consistently hit it off the heel-center or toe-center of the club.  Two of which are multi-major winners.  But like you said, whatever they do, they repeat it most of the time.  And I'm not talking about shots that are way off the toe or heel, but even those can happen sometimes.

Back to the OP, yeah five things

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55426/introducing-five-simple-keys

Mike McLoughlin

Check out my friends on Evolvr!
Follow The Sand Trap on Twitter!  and on Facebook
Golf Terminology -  Analyzr  -  My FacebookTwitter and Instagram 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

It is funny how the swings and body shapes of some of the top players can be so different. Whenever I go to the my swing section however there always seems to me that there are too many absolutes in terms of coaching. Like this is BETTER than that. This is WRONG, and this is RIGHT. Don't do this do that etc etc. Surely even a look at golf on the TV would tell us that right/wrong, good/bad are very shaky terms to use about golfers swings

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I remember a friend of mine, a very good player, was asked how such a small fellow (he's only 5'4") could hit the ball so far and so well.

His reply summed up this topic perfectly, although some may think him immodest:-

"Sheer unparalleled ability"

There is no substitute for sheer athletic ability.  You cannot teach a flat-footed, knock-kneed unathletic softie to play golf (or any other sport) well !!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Originally Posted by HighlandLaird

I remember a friend of mine, a very good player, was asked how such a small fellow (he's only 5'4") could hit the ball so far and so well.

His reply summed up this topic perfectly, although some may think him immodest:-

"Sheer unparalleled ability"

There is no substitute for sheer athletic ability.  You cannot teach a flat-footed, knock-kneed unathletic softie to play golf (or any other sport) well !!

so THAT's why I'm so crap at this game!!

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Administrator
Originally Posted by logman

It is funny how the swings and body shapes of some of the top players can be so different. Whenever I go to the my swing section however there always seems to me that there are too many absolutes in terms of coaching. Like this is BETTER than that. This is WRONG, and this is RIGHT. Don't do this do that etc etc. Surely even a look at golf on the TV would tell us that right/wrong, good/bad are very shaky terms to use about golfers swings

There are plenty of things that players should NOT do, things that are BETTER than others, that are very clearly RIGHT.

No good golfers flip at the ball. No good players have a path that's consistently more than 6 degrees right or about 4 degrees left. No good players fail to get their weight forward, control their clubface, etc.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

that's a very wide net you're casting there Iacas. Even a cursory look at the swing thoughts and my swings sections will confirm plenty of examples of the bad/good wrong/right school of coaching. The Nick Faldo toe up picture comes to mind. Even your posting on your own swing describing 2 backswing angles and captioning them as wrong and right.

My reticence to cheer on the 5sk coaching is not that I don't think those things are good. Sure a steady head is a good thing. Is it important?  maybe?. Imperative? obviously not. Peter Senior's head is all over the shop, and come to think of it he sure hasn't got 80% of his weight on his front foot. Didn't stop him winning the Aust Masters this year though.

So how important are the "keys"? How relevant are they for Mug punters like me to build a swing? that's got to be the thing.

Steady head: handy, good tip.

Weight forward: IMHO the most important of the 5 but not imperative(senior)

Flat left wrist: Is the product of strong wrist. Pro golfers have strong arms and wrists, many, many mug punters don't and will always struggle with what this coaching is asking the wrist to perform. I reckon 80% of women will never have the wrist strength to get to a flat wrist. To these folks number 3 is pie in the sky.

diagonal sweet spot: hit the ball in the middle of the face and try to not go too far outside or too far inside. That's what I try to do every time I hit the golf ball. IMHO I don't think this is a key.

Clubface control: As mr Wedlick says "if I've got the clubface pointing left the ball will go a little left......if I've got the clubface pointing right the ball will go a little right". I just don't think that the huge majority of players are interested in shaping the ball. IMHO most golfers want to hit a straight shot but unfortunately hit a slice. It's not that they don't know what they should be doing ....it's that they're body's won't listen to what they're brains are telling them.

PS.I don't think this is a personal attack, or somehow disrespectful of Iacas, Mr Wedlick, or MVmac and the other 5sk coaches on here. I just disagree. Sorry the second bit is a bit OT but it kinda led on from Iacas post.

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I would suggest that Senior is an anomaly, and is highly adapted and skilled at getting himself into the correct position where it matters - through the hitting area. But as it's been said elsewhere by the 5SK guys - the majority of proficient golfers move their heads very little throughout the swing.

During the swing the club travels a large distance but the ball is only on the club for a tiny proportion of that - but that's the only place it has to be right. I really think Eric et al have taken the elements of good ball striking down to it's very essence and made it as simple and understandable as it possibly could be in order to give the golfer the best chance to be in the right place at impact.

On page 157 of the book "The Swing Factory" there's a gallery showing a number of tour pros just after impact and they are all in identical positions i.e. weight clearly forward, steady head and flat left wrist/hands leading. It's certainly possible to hit a golf ball without these elements but not successfully or with any predictability or consistency which is what we are all after.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Moderator
It is funny how the swings and body shapes of some of the top players can be so different. Whenever I go to the my swing section however there always seems to me that there are too many absolutes in terms of coaching. Like this is BETTER than that. This is WRONG, and this is RIGHT. Don't do this do that etc etc. Surely even a look at golf on the TV would tell us that right/wrong, good/bad are very shaky terms to use about golfers swings

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are advocating that everyone "groove" in their unique swings, flaws and all. If there is no right or wrong in instruction, then why aren't more amateurs improving simply by beating balls around? I think your argument is flawed, and by using pros that are essentially anomalies, you aren't really proving your point.

Bill

“By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.” - Confucius

My Swing Thread

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by logman

Weight forward: IMHO the most important of the 5 but not imperative(senior) Here's the thing,This is going to help you a LOT with the Flat Left Wrist.

Flat left wrist: Is the product of strong wrist. Pro golfers have strong arms and wrists, many, many mug punters don't and will always struggle with what this coaching is asking the wrist to perform. I reckon 80% of women will never have the wrist strength to get to a flat wrist. To these folks number 3 is pie in the sky. I believe that, provided your weight is forward, your wrist does not need to be especially strong, it just needs to be properly educated to be in the right position at impact.

diagonal sweet spot: hit the ball in the middle of the face and try to not go too far outside or too far inside. That's what I try to do every time I hit the golf ball. IMHO I don't think this is a key. LOL, then why on earth are you wasting your time trying to do this "every time you hit the golf ball???"

Clubface control: As mr Wedlick says "if I've got the clubface pointing left the ball will go a little left......if I've got the clubface pointing right the ball will go a little right". I just don't think that the huge majority of players are interested in shaping the ball. IMHO most golfers want to hit a straight shot but unfortunately hit a slice. It's not that they don't know what they should be doing ....it's that they're body's won't listen to what they're brains are telling them. Aside from the conventional wisdom about straight golf shots, If you cannot control where your clubface is pointing, how do you expect to ever be able to hit a straight golf shot??

PS.I don't think this is a personal attack, or somehow disrespectful of Iacas, Mr Wedlick, or MVmac and the other 5sk coaches on here. I just disagree. Sorry the second bit is a bit OT but it kinda led on from Iacas post. I wouldn't classify this as an attack either and to be clear, I'm no pro and probably don't play any better than you do but don't you think you tend to be a little "knee jerk" about this stuff? I mean, going against the flow and all that is great but are you really suggesting that playing with your weight back and a bent (flipped) left wrist with completely random clubface angles is a viable way to learn the game?

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

PSA - "If you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!"

My Whackin' Sticks: :cleveland: 330cc 2003 Launcher 10.5*  :tmade: RBZ HL 3w  :nickent: 3DX DC 3H, 3DX RC 4H  :callaway: X-22 5-AW  :nike:SV tour 56* SW :mizuno: MP-T11 60* LW :bridgestone: customized TD-03 putter :tmade:Penta TP3   :aimpoint:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Eamonn Darcy, Craig Parry, Craig Stadler, Bubba, Arnie,Trevino, that young guy that wears all the orange stuff........

Taking the above advice may lead to destruction of your golf game. Laughing at it may reduce stress.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Originally Posted by logman

Eamonn Darcy, Craig Parry, Craig Stadler, Bubba, Arnie,Trevino, that young guy that wears all the orange stuff........

...are all guys who excel at the 5 keys regardless of what their swing 'looks' like.

  • Upvote 1

Yours in earnest, Jason.
Call me Ernest, or EJ or Ernie.

PSA - "If you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING!"

My Whackin' Sticks: :cleveland: 330cc 2003 Launcher 10.5*  :tmade: RBZ HL 3w  :nickent: 3DX DC 3H, 3DX RC 4H  :callaway: X-22 5-AW  :nike:SV tour 56* SW :mizuno: MP-T11 60* LW :bridgestone: customized TD-03 putter :tmade:Penta TP3   :aimpoint:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Sorry if I am breaking up the pigpile on logman, but another thing that I see in GOOD golfers is that their weight never gets to the outside of their back foot during the backswing.  So many bad players let their weight get to the outside of their back foot (swaying), that it's very difficult to make decent contact.

In fact, I'm a little surprised that it is rarely mentioned as a "key" on the ST. In my opinion, it is more important than a steady head.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Originally Posted by logman

Eamonn Darcy, Craig Parry, Craig Stadler, Bubba, Arnie,Trevino, that young guy that wears all the orange stuff........

bro, look at all of them at impact and tell us they dont have their weight forward, with a flat left wrist, and are hitting down (forward leaning shaft) with irons...etc...if you dont do these things then you are making the game so much harder for yourself.  if you dont do these things then there are BAD things in your swing.

Colin P.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Administrator
Originally Posted by logman

that's a very wide net you're casting there Iacas. Even a cursory look at the swing thoughts and my swings sections will confirm plenty of examples of the bad/good wrong/right school of coaching.

They're right or wrong for those particular students. Combined with the fact that many students have similar swing flaws (flaws you're not going to find in good or great players) and I can see how you might arrive at the thought that there's one pattern.

Are there examples (Ray Floyd is a great one) of someone whose takeaway doesn't line up at A2? You bet. I just named one. That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of golfers put themselves into a bad spot from which they cannot recover if they roll their forearms like crazy to start their backswings. It's not a matter of "right" versus wrong - and 5SK doesn't mention A2 or where the club should be - but when someone Ray Floyds their takeaway and doesn't do what Ray does from there to the top of the backswing and into the transition, they're screwed because Keys #4 and #5 will be off.

Originally Posted by logman

The Nick Faldo toe up picture comes to mind. Even your posting on your own swing describing 2 backswing angles and captioning them as wrong and right.

Toe up isn't wrong (saying that "toe up" is "square" is wrong, but that's another thing entirely. It's just another example of the above: people who roll the face more than often don't recover because they don't make the appropriate compensating moves to control Keys #4 and #5 from a toe-up, early-rotation position.

Originally Posted by logman

Sure a steady head is a good thing. Is it important?  maybe?. Imperative? obviously not. Peter Senior's head is all over the shop, and come to think of it he sure hasn't got 80% of his weight on his front foot. Didn't stop him winning the Aust Masters this year though.

It's "relatively steady head" and we specifically don't mean dead still and steady. Besides, Peter Senior has a "relatively steady head." We filmed him in person at the U.S. Senior Open this year. He's also got 80% of his pressure forward with an iron (less than some, and he extends like crazy, both "early extension" and the normal extension we talk about). Pressure is not the same as weight. "Weight forward" is simplified, though we're considering calling it "Pressure forward" to emphasize ground pressures and whatnot in the next iteration. Same idea, same physics, same teaching concept, just a different (and I would argue more accurate) name. I argued for "pressure forward" before, but was outvoted. :)

Originally Posted by logman

Flat left wrist: Is the product of strong wrist.

No it's not.

Sorry for putting it that way, but there's really no other way to put it: it has almost nothing to do with wrist strength, and in many cases, stronger players have a tougher time of this. It has way, way more to do with timing - when the hands accelerate and decelerate, when the core/torso accelerates and decelerates, in what direction they're moving (the hands are pulling UP at impact, not driving down and forward), and so on.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/46448/not-a-bad-impact-position-wife

Originally Posted by logman

diagonal sweet spot: hit the ball in the middle of the face and try to not go too far outside or too far inside. That's what I try to do every time I hit the golf ball. IMHO I don't think this is a key.

The game's best players control their sweet spot path. The game's poorest players do not. It is absolutely a key.

Originally Posted by logman

Clubface control: As mr Wedlick says "if I've got the clubface pointing left the ball will go a little left......if I've got the clubface pointing right the ball will go a little right". I just don't think that the huge majority of players are interested in shaping the ball. IMHO most golfers want to hit a straight shot but unfortunately hit a slice. It's not that they don't know what they should be doing ....it's that they're body's won't listen to what they're brains are telling them.

I don't know who Mr. Wedlick is, but Dave Wedzik, the guy I work with, isn't talking about shaping the ball, and you clearly don't understand what Key #5 is about if you think it's about "shaping the ball" the way you've described it. Key #5 is about understanding the relationship between the clubface and the path in order to produce controlled shots, even if it's the same shot time after time after time.

Key #5 is both knowledge (ball flight laws, a little D-Plane for instructors) mixed with allowing the student to DO THE THINGS to control the clubface and path. EVERY great player controls the clubface relative to the path, every poor player fails to do this well.

To sum up my "problem" with you, logman, it would be that you're criticizing from a position of ignorance. I love criticism. I love it - because it lets me improve most quickly. Who cares if people say "I agree!" That gets me nowhere. If someone can show me how I'm wrong, then that gives me an immediate opportunity to advance my knowledge and understanding.

But you haven't done that. You consistently and seem to willfully fail to not only understand what 5SK is, but also how Mike and I teach. You're critical of a guy who not only likes practicing and playing with his swing, but who went from shooting in the 90s to shooting in the low 70s in a very short span of time. You decide for yourself that something "doesn't matter" or "isn't a key" based on absolutely no real evidence. One of my best friends in golf instruction is John Graham. He's been called "Mr. Contrarian" (I'm Contrarian Junior) because his reaction to everything is to try to contradict it, to find the holes, to find the flaws. That's easier than trying to prove something is right, and it's a great approach to lots of problems, particularly golf. But you aren't doing that. John will back up his contrariness with some actual proof or examples or scenarios. You don't do that. You decide it isn't so and you run with it.

You don't appear to be open to new understandings and you don't appear to be willing to be criticized yourself. You skate through having done no research whatsoever, free (you think) to just ignore the research done by others. You are a hindrance, not someone who furthers the discussion, because your remedial approach to understanding the golf swing does not allow a high level of discussion. You're the slow kid in the back of the classroom who, because he can't multiply, chooses to cover up that fact by making a fuss about how multiplication is stupid and that you'll never have to do it in real life.

Originally Posted by billchao

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are advocating that everyone "groove" in their unique swings, flaws and all. If there is no right or wrong in instruction, then why aren't more amateurs improving simply by beating balls around?

As you probably know, amateurs have grooved swings already. Every time, shot after shot, their swings are almost identical. That's why they're bad golfers - because they make bad swing after bad swing. That's why you can identify your buddy from four fairways over just by his swing. They vary swing to swing almost as little as the pros - the pros simply have a BETTER swing.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Sorry if I am breaking up the pigpile on logman, but another thing that I see in GOOD golfers is that their weight never gets to the outside of their back foot during the backswing.  So many bad players let their weight get to the outside of their back foot (swaying), that it's very difficult to make decent contact.

In fact, I'm a little surprised that it is rarely mentioned as a "key" on the ST. In my opinion, it is more important than a steady head.

That's easy:

1) If your head remains relatively steady, you're going to have a hard time getting your weight outside your feet. You'd have to...

2) If you shift your hips SO MUCH (or setup in a horrible position) that your weight gets outside your feet, then you're going to have trouble with Key #2.

But we never see #2 - Sergio and Monty slide their hips back, but their weight never really gets outside of their feet. They get a little more pressure into their back foot than someone who keeps his hips relatively centered, but that's fine too. Monty and Sergio have the 5SK as well.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 4098 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • In general, granting free relief anywhere on the course isn't recommended.  Similarly, when marking GUR, the VSGA and MAPGA generally don't mark areas that are well away from the intended playing lines, no matter how poor the conditions.  If you hit it far enough offline, you don't necessarily deserve free relief.  And you don't have to damage clubs, take unplayable relief, take the stroke, and drop the ball in a better spot.
    • If it's not broken don't fix it. If you want to add grooves to it just because of looks that's your choice of course. Grooves are cut into putter faces to reduce skid, the roll faced putter is designed to do the same thing. I'm no expert but it seems counter productive to add grooves to the roll face. Maybe you can have it sand-blasted or something to clean up the face. Take a look at Tigers putter, its beat to hell but he still uses it.     
    • I get trying to limit relief to the fairway, but how many roots do you typically find in the fairway? Our local rule allows for relief from roots & rocks anywhere on the course (that is in play). My home course has quite a few 100 year old oaks that separate the fairways. Lift and move the ball no closer to the hole. None of us want to damage clubs.
    • Hello, I've been playing a Teardrop td17 F.C. putter for many years and love it. It still putts and feels as good or  better than any of the new putters I've tried and it's in excellent condition except the face has dings in it ever since I bought it used that kind of bother me. I was just wondering if it's possible to have some really shallow horizontal grooves milled into the face on a "roll face" putter. I think I would rather spend some money on it instead of trying to get used to a new putter.  Thanks
    • I agree with @klineka & @DaveP043 above.  When a new member first joins the club they cold be told that they are not eligible for tournaments until they have an established HCP.  As you said, it only takes a few rounds.  If they do not to post HCP that was their choice and choices have consequences.  If playing in the tournament is important to them then they should step up and establish an HCP.  Maybe they miss the 1st tournament, is that a real big deal?  And if it is a "Big Deal" to them then they had the opportunity to establish the HCP. As for not knowing how to report for HCP I assume your club has a pro and they should be able to assist in getting the scores reported and I suspect out of state courses may also have staff that can assist if asked.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...