Mrs. Kanwars minimalist golf swing

[iacas]

Originally Posted by logman

I think you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding. There's obviously shoulder turn ....note the set up position, shoulder turn, and tilt

It's not turn if they remain far more static. The shoulder turn is limited. Turning is an action, not a position.

Originally Posted by logman

How does it eliminate casting and slicing? by the arms dropping down first while the body stays turned closed to the target hence a shorter inside to out path

That's not "casting." That's "coming over the top." Casting is immediately throwing out the right wrist flying wedge (the angle between your right forearm and the club shaft) at the top of the backswing. This swing seems to prescribe not even setting the wrists, leading to a built-in cast.

Originally Posted by logman

And yes the wrist is a source of power but it's also a source of inconsistency and maintainance. The wrist is an evil bastard

It can be, but at the end of the day, it's a necessary "evil" if you want to break 90 or certainly 80 with any consistency.

Originally Posted by logman

Power.... well you've made mention to me many times about the LPG/ bent arms swing that I've been trying to use. Absolutely no power at all to start with but up until I switched to right hand(to find more power)I was regularly hitting 250 meters with some out to 270. You've said no power often.

If you think we believe you, then... good luck with that. I think we believe that as much as we believe you got a hole in one.

Originally Posted by logman

And Fat...I don't see that, shallow yes.

The left shoulder is too far back to have a low point well in front of the golf ball. Margin for error becomes quite thin and fat and thin shots will result. Simple geometry of a circle here.

That's why in the swing video you post the guy (who isn't hitting any golf balls or even brushing the grass most of the time) doesn't leave his head back. He tries to get it farther forward to try to get his left shoulder farther forward.

Originally Posted by logman

so here's a guy talking exactly about the differences in swing speed and the differences between full on conventional swing speed and MGS and the need to cock the wrists or not. and also about the anti slice part of things.

That video is thoroughly unconvincing. Here are a couple of reasons. Guess which swing this one is:

Answer: it's the one where he is not cocking his wrists at all. Of course, if that was the case, the club shaft should stay close to inline with his lead arm. Oops.

And he says - a few times - that it's "impossible to slice" from the MGS setup because your shoulders are pointed out to the right.

Oh really?

Turns out (pun intended) that they aren't, because like most golf swings, they TURN on the downswing and are, in this case, pointed well to the left.

I'll also point out that he gains a fair amount of clubhead speed the farther he moves away from MGS (and that thing is probably measuring km/h - also, it's not measuring at any particular point in the swing - so if the max speed is three feet AFTER impact, it won't matter to the speed stick thing, but it matters to the golf ball), that he re-centers the head a good amount after making the backswing, and that his feels aren't real. He's not hitting a golf ball, we can't see his divots, and he's marketing himself based on someone else's ideas. It's a whole crop of pseudo-science and "feel ain't real but we're gonna market it like it is" that appeals to some counter-culture idiots who think there's some secret hidden path out there to playing great golf.

There's not, because if there really WAS a way out there, the first guy to teach it would be wealthy, PGA Tour players would be using it, etc. Instead, you've got some person or small group hoping to sucker in a few delusional people to milk them for some money. There's an endless supply of suckers, as they say, so it's not necessarily a bad business practice. It's just not a good golf practice. It's built upon the fantasy that feel IS real and ignores basic biokinetics/biomechanics, certain laws of geometry and physics, and so on.

Tiger Woods could kick your ass (or this guy's ass) playing with a set of women's clubs left-handed with one hand on the club (and you can pick which hand).

Now, logman, claim it as a victory if you like, but I'm done wasting my time looking at videos or doing the little bit of reading I've done on this. You've presented no compelling argument or idea. It's not even "your" swing. So I'm done wasting my time.

Cheers.

P.S. Man up. Post a video of YOUR swing sometime.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by iacas

P.S. Man up. Post a video of YOUR swing sometime.

Could not agree with this more!  :)

The only down side to this is that you might get better! :)

[Ernest Jones]

P.S. Man up. Post a video of YOUR swing sometime.

Agree 100%, lets see the magic instead the smoke and mirrors. I've never seen a live LPG swing, other than a YouTube of a drunk guy doing practice swings in his garage with talk radio blaring in the background. Lets see this mystical swing, maybe we will all be eating crow when we see how powerful and controlled it is.

[Ernest Jones]

Agree 100%, lets see the magic instead the smoke and mirrors. I've never seen a live LPG swing, other than a YouTube of a drunk guy doing practice swings in his garage with talk radio blaring in the background. Lets see this mystical swing, maybe we will all be eating crow when we see how powerful and controlled it is.

Funny side note - when I typed LPG swing on my iPhone the autospell corrected it to LOG swing. Lol.

[logman]

I reckon the demonstration is good. Just on power: it shows the maximum power is gained by all the additions of full on wrist cock, lag ,maximum shoulder turn, full weight transfer the whole kitchen sink and the results were marginally faster. So why have them. Why use the legs if the legs contribute little accept complication. Sure you can get power from o super laggy wrist but the flipside is controlling it. Shoulder turn, the same. Whats the point of shoulder turn if you can preset shoulder turn and get the benefit of inside swing path and the power of the turn as well

[iacas]

Originally Posted by logman

I reckon the demonstration is good.

Despite actual evidence that it's not. Good for you.

Originally Posted by logman

Just on power: it shows the maximum power is gained by all the additions of full on wrist cock, lag ,maximum shoulder turn, full weight transfer the whole kitchen sink and the results were marginally faster. So why have them.

I'll give you two reasons because I'm bored:

1. Because when he demonstrated no wrist cock he cocked his wrists almost as much as he did in the "max power" swing.
2. Furthermore, there's NO evidence at all that he swung efficiently or properly when demonstrating the "max power" swing.

Hey cool, they lined up there at the end.

Originally Posted by logman

Sure you can get power from o super laggy wrist but the flipside is controlling it. Shoulder turn, the same. Whats the point of shoulder turn if you can preset shoulder turn and get the benefit of inside swing path and the power of the turn as well

Reading comprehension failure, dude. Addressed all of that above.

[Ernest Jones]

good rebuttal.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

good rebuttal.

For others, I imagine Ernest is responding to a post of logman's that I deleted. I deleted it (and PMed Rupert/logman) because rather than quote properly, he quoted my post then typed his response inside of it. Sometimes when people make a formatting booboo I will re-format it for them, but this would have taken too long and, well, it's logman, so no thanks.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by iacas

For others, I imagine Ernest is responding to a post of logman's that I deleted. I deleted it (and PMed Rupert/logman) because rather than quote properly, he quoted my post then typed his response inside of it. Sometimes when people make a formatting booboo I will re-format it for them, but this would have taken too long and, well, it's logman, so no thanks.

The "good rebuttal" comment was just a sarcastic remark on my part. Logman's post was a piece of drivel imbedded in a long quote of Iacas. Had to read it twice before I found his addition and it wasn't worth the effort. It's like debating with a 5 year old.

[logman]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

The "good rebuttal" comment was just a sarcastic remark on my part. Logman's post was a piece of drivel imbedded in a long quote of Iacas. Had to read it twice before I found his addition and it wasn't worth the effort. It's like debating with a 5 year old.

Mate, you don't debate. You're a "what he said" sort of guy.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by logman

Mate, you don't debate. You're a "what he said" sort of guy.

Pot, meet... yourself.

[logman]

Originally Posted by iacas

It's not turn if they remain far more static. The shoulder turn is limited. Turning is an action, not a position.

Who cares what it is. Whats the use of it? Is there any downside to presetting? Your turning your shoulders and torso as you would in a normal swing. There are plenty of examples of other sports activities that preset an advantageous position. Tennis players hold their backhands then release.Baseball batters hold their backswings in a loaded, ready to fire position. Yes the shoulder turn is sma ller, but it seems big enough to make some power and stabilize the arms

Originally Posted by iacas

It can be, but at the end of the day, it's a necessary "evil" if you want to break 90 or certainly 80 with any consistency.

How does scoring relate to this, At my home course I will religiously break eighty with a LPG swing, no wrist action at all. Jack Kuykendall, the originator of the LPG swing hits the ball 260 yards with it, but I guess you don't believe that either. I've got witnesses if you don't believe I hit a hole in one. do you want names?

Originally Posted by iacas

The left shoulder is too far back to have a low point well in front of the golf ball. Margin for error becomes quite thin and fat and thin shots will result. Simple geometry of a circle here.

That's why in the swing video you post the guy (who isn't hitting any golf balls or even brushing the grass most of the time) doesn't leave his head back. He tries to get it farther forward to try to get his left shoulder farther forward.

I reckon this is pretty minor really, every different swing has a different ball position. I'm sure a bit of fiddling and trial and error would get a satisfactory result. How about those stack and tilt guys out there, I'm sure the would place the ball in a different spot.

Originally Posted by iacas

Answer: it's the one where he is not cocking his wrists at all. Of course, if that was the case, the club shaft should stay close to inline with his lead arm. Oops.

And he says - a few times - that it's "impossible to slice" from the MGS setup because your shoulders are pointed out to the right.

Oh really?

Yes , the interesting thing for me in this swing is the way your front arm rises up the chest, like your using the chest as a template for the backswing then the downswing. If you drop your hands down first and keep the body close to set up position then the club has to go from in to out.....nice!

I think you're being a little unreasonable here. This swing is short compared with the longer swings he makes later on, and the point he is trying to make is, and I think he shows it quite well is that  even with a full on conventional swing, with all the aspects of lower body movement, big shoulder turn, big cocked wrist, full on lag, weight shift etc etc. The MGS swing is still getting 95% of the conventional swings speed......with none of the dangers that go with that style

And please, do you really think he's faking it?

Originally Posted by iacas

It's just not a good golf practice. It's built upon the fantasy that feel IS real and ignores basic biokinetics/biomechanics, certain laws of geometry and physics, and so on.

I think Mrs. Kanwar is pretty well qualified in those fields.

Originally Posted by iacas

Tiger Woods could kick your ass (or this guy's ass) playing with a set of women's clubs left-handed with one hand on the club (and you can pick which hand).

Mate It's not me versus Tiger, It's a discussion of MGS swing technique. Attacking me has nothing to do with the efficacy of the MGS swing

Originally Posted by iacas

P.S. Man up. Post a video of YOUR swing sometime.

Again, play the ball not the man

[tristanhilton85]

I think Mrs. Kanwar is pretty well qualified in those fields.

Obviously not.

Originally Posted by logman

Sorry how do you do the multi quote. Anyway hope it's readable

Better than you had put, but not really.

PS... i just fixed it so it is more readable... that way we can see your argument.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by logman

Who cares what it is. Whats the use of it? Is there any downside to presetting? Your turning your shoulders and torso as you would in a normal swing. There are plenty of examples of other sports activities that preset an advantageous position. Tennis players hold their backhands then release.Baseball batters hold their backswings in a loaded, ready to fire position. Yes the shoulder turn is smaller, but it seems big enough to make some power and stabilize the arms

There is an key difference between tennis and baseball & golf, in that the main goal in those sports to simply to hit the ball.  You are reacting, so power, while important and nice to have, is secondary.  Golf doesn't have that problem because the ball is just sitting there.  You want to maximize your power so you have a backswing, including a shoulder turn.  (I won't try to go past the basics here because I'm no expert - I'll leave that to the pros)

Originally Posted by logman

How does scoring relate to this, At my home course I will religiously break eighty with a LPG swing, no wrist action at all. Jack Kuykendall, the originator of the LPG swing hits the ball 260 yards with it, but I guess you don't believe that either. I've got witnesses if you don't believe I hit a hole in one. do you want names?

I don't doubt you can break 80 religiously, and I don't doubt that you've hit a hole in one.  (Well I do doubt that you hit one last week, but that's another story ;))

What I DO doubt is that you do it with "no wrist action at all."  I have a fair bit of power in my swing (not a lot, but above average) and if I tried to swing with no wrist action at all, I don't see how I could hit any club more than 150 yards or so.

One of the reasons why it would be nice to see your swing.  Prove us wrong.  The only LPG visual I have is that guy in his garage in his sweatpants and if you could post a swing, then I could replace that image in my brain.

[logman]

Thanks Tristan.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by logman

Mate, you don't debate. You're a "what he said" sort of guy.

Originally Posted by iacas

Pot, meet... yourself.

What he said....

[billchao]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

There is an key difference between tennis and baseball & golf, in that the main goal in those sports to simply to hit the ball.  You are reacting, so power, while important and nice to have, is secondary.  Golf doesn't have that problem because the ball is just sitting there.  You want to maximize your power so you have a backswing, including a shoulder turn.  (I won't try to go past the basics here because I'm no expert - I'll leave that to the pros)

Exactly. You can't make an apples to apples comparison of golf to baseball or tennis just because you hold an object in your hand(s) and have to swing it to hit a ball. Baseballs and tennis balls possess kinetic energy. When you hit the ball with your bat/racquet, you are adding your swing's power to it (yes it's more complicated than that; trying to keep it simple here). Energy is transferred even if you make contact with a stationary object. It's why tennis balls bounce when you throw them at a wall. Now, if you tee up your golf ball against a wall.... all you'll have is a golf ball touching a wall.

The backswing is important in supplying power. You build it up, load it in the clubhead, then bring it back to the ball. If we could preset all our positions and just swing at the ball and have only a minimal loss of power, we'd all be playing with a no backswing swing. After all, if you can preset your shoulder turn, why not go the whole 9? Just take all of the bad moving parts of the backswing out completely.

Logman, it seems like this whole thing boils down to a "feel vs real" argument. You claim you have "no wrist action at all." I'm willing to bet that if you put your swing on video, your wrists are probably doing something. The fact that you feel "no wrist action at all" is not the same as your wrists having no action at all. The captured image of the guy demonstrating the MGS says it all: the guy is clearly not doing what he thinks/is saying he is doing. In fact, to my uneducated eye, it looks like a conventional swing to me.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by logman

Who cares what it is. Whats the use of it? Is there any downside to presetting? Your turning your shoulders and torso as you would in a normal swing. There are plenty of examples of other sports activities that preset an advantageous position. Tennis players hold their backhands then release.Baseball batters hold their backswings in a loaded, ready to fire position. Yes the shoulder turn is smaller, but it seems big enough to make some power and stabilize the arms

People have addressed the other sports part, so again I'll cover the "turn" part.

The swing says you preset your shoulder turn then leave it there. That's the only way to guarantee you're swinging well out to the right - if the shoulders (torso, really) don't turn through.

So you've got your pick of:

a) a severe and dramatic decrease of power while preserving the torso alignments (out to the right), producing a weak arm swing with a low point WELL back of the golf ball, or

b) not actually doing what is said, turning your torso on the downswing, but giving up the guaranteed path out to the right.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you turn your torso back and leave it there to control the path, or you're basically just making a normal backswing (albeit a shorter one that doesn't turn quite as much as a "normal" golf swing), but giving up the controlled path.

Originally Posted by logman

How does scoring relate to this, At my home course I will religiously break eighty with a LPG swing, no wrist action at all. Jack Kuykendall, the originator of the LPG swing hits the ball 260 yards with it, but I guess you don't believe that either. I've got witnesses if you don't believe I hit a hole in one. do you want names?

I don't believe him or you about your wrists. Feel ain't real. It's one of the reasons we've asked for a video.

You didn't get a hole in one last week, but you may very well have one another time. I don't get why you're pushing the hole in one thing, though - it's a stupid point to be making: terrible golfers have holes in one. It proves nothing. Your "hole in three" last week does reveal that you'll basically lie and/or that you're immune to basic logic. :P

As I said, scoring relates to it because your wrists provide enough power to get around the golf course in under 80 regularly without requiring some miracle short game day with several chip-ins and one-putts.

Originally Posted by logman

I reckon this is pretty minor really, every different swing has a different ball position. I'm sure a bit of fiddling and trial and error would get a satisfactory result. How about those stack and tilt guys out there, I'm sure the would place the ball in a different spot.

Sorry, dude, it's basic geometry of a circle. And S&T; guys play from a fairly standard ball position. FAIL.

This swing pre-sets low point BEHIND the golf ball, requiring the golfer to make a massive shift forward WITH their head (and eyes, and lead shoulder) in order to strike the golf ball solidly. B-A-S-I-C geometry.

Originally Posted by logman

Yes , the interesting thing for me in this swing is the way your front arm rises up the chest, like your using the chest as a template for the backswing then the downswing. If you drop your hands down first and keep the body close to set up position then the club has to go from in to out.....nice!

Rupert, I'll make this as simple as I can for you:

a) This guy said he was making a no-wrist-action MGS backswing. He is wrong. His "swing speed tests" are faulty right from the get-go.

b) This guy (and you) say it makes the chest a "template" but then IGNORE the fact that he turns his torso well open throughout the entire downswing, again not only invalidating the swing speed tests but invalidating the logic that it sets up a template, since that template is ROTATING during the entire downswing, and can easily point left at impact.

This is rudimentary stuff.

Originally Posted by logman

I think you're being a little unreasonable here. This swing is short compared with the longer swings he makes later on, and the point he is trying to make is, and I think he shows it quite well is that  even with a full on conventional swing, with all the aspects of lower body movement, big shoulder turn, big cocked wrist, full on lag, weight shift etc etc. The MGS swing is still getting 95% of the conventional swings speed......with none of the dangers that go with that style

I'll spell this out for you as simply as I can: This is NOT the MGS Swing!

About the only differences between this swing AND the swing he makes later is that he turns his shoulders a bit more. And what's he get for that? A 12+ km/h swing speed increase.

Three things make this NOT an MGS swing:

a) Wrists cock/hinge.

b) Torso unwinds throughout the entire downswing.

c) Lead shoulder moves forward and doesn't stay back in the setup position.

We see lots of low handicap golfers making a 60° shoulder turn. They tend to have some sequencing issues and need to rely on some stronger upper bodies (arms) to hit the ball far and accurately, but they can do it. That's all this guy has done.

He hasn't done the things he says he'll do - starting right off with the wrist cocking. He says it won't at all, it clearly does. He's LYING to you, because FEEL AIN'T REAL.

Oh and those 60° shoulder turn guys we teach? They hit the ball a bit farther and have WAY more control over their curve and flight after we work to extend their backswing length. Sequencing improves, efficiency improves, and they don't have to try to "save" so many shots.

Originally Posted by logman

I think Mrs. Kanwar is pretty well qualified in those fields.

I've yet to see any evidence of that.

Originally Posted by logman

Again, play the ball not the man

I have done just that, by discussing the actual swing, which you seem to be loathe to do. You'd rather just swallow the marketing hook, line, and sinker, and this isn't even your swing. You might think you're winning by riling some of us up or something, but these are lobbed softballs to a major league hitter, these things you're putting up. They're so easily debunked with their own materials that it's not even funny, or challenging.

BTW, I also like hockey, where you play the man, not the puck. :)

I've asked to see your swing because it's hilarious that you're adamant that you don't use your wrists. You do, or you don't hit the ball out of your shadow.