Time for USGA to Rethink Amateur Status Rules

[SweDeuS]

Originally Posted by iacas

At the end of the day, this is the statement with which I disagree. You disagree with me, but I've yet to see a good reason WHY. And as part of that, answer the question of "how do you police them and determine which category a teaching professional should be in?" and then answer the question: "how big of a problem is this really to teaching professionals?"

So answer those questions, if you could.

The reason WHY is that the rule exist mainly because they don't want teachers to compete against their students. But then again why shouldn't they be able to?

* Are teaching PROs self evident better players than their students? --> NO!

* Will the skill level of a teaching PRO improve, the minute he/she starts charging money for his/her lessons? --> NO!

* Are amateurs not willing to compete against their own teaching PRO, or are they afraid of it? --> I don't know the general opinion, but I would like to be able to compete against mine.

* Does a teaching PRO have an unfair advantage against his/her students? --> NO! Or maybe. A teaching PRO probably has more knowledge about what they are able/allowed to do during a round, according to the rules of the game. But that knowledge is accessable to the average amateur also, so it's not an unfair advantage.

To sum it up, I'd say that the reason WHY teaching PROs should be able to compete against amateurs is: WHY NOT?

How to police and determine which category a teaching professional should be in? That could be done in many different ways. Just as they can regulate other rules of the game. I should probably let someone from the USGA determine that, but I can give a couple of suggestions:

* It could be determined by the handicap of the teaching PRO.

* It could be determined by the teaching level of the teaching PRO. Either by the level of the players he/she teaches, or by the level of degree that a PGA teaching PRO has.

* Or they could just state that: all teaching PROs are allowed to compete in amateur events. As long as they have not competed at a professional level as a player.

How big of a problem is this really to teaching professionals? Since I'm not a teaching PRO myself I can't answer that question. But it seemes like it is a problem for the person who started this thread. And I think that it can be a problem for the game itself.

If teaching PROs can't compete at an amateur level it might discourage people from becoming teaching PROs. Collage students can't make some extra money teaching small kids about the game if they still want to keep their amateur status. This renders in fewer teaching PROs which could mean some serious consequences. For example: less new players due to lack of teachers able to grant them a green card. Higher prices for lessons due to lack of an competitive market. --> Leading to fewer players who can afford to improve their game by taking lessons from a teaching PRO etc.

Maybe I'm taking it to far, but it's not totally irrelevant I think.

No that I've answered your questions, would you be so kind and answer some of mine. What's the reason WHY teaching PROs shouldn't be allowed to compete at amateur level? (aside from it being stated in the rule book) What positive effecs do we get from it? And what negative effects would occur if we changed the rule?

Sorry for the lengthy reply...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Should a Little League coach be classified as a professional baseball player?  A Pop Warner coach a pro football player?  Why is golf so rigid in it's inclusion of teachers with players?

Rich, with all due respect, that's a silly argument.

They're not competing AGAINST the kids they coach, and they aren't being paid. It's a volunteer position. The high school "golf coaches" here and even the college coaches are not "pro"s - they can play in amateur events as they're amateurs (basically, they drive the bus, schedule things, etc.).

Originally Posted by SweDeuS

The reason WHY is that the rule exist mainly because they don't want teachers to compete against their students. But then again why shouldn't they be able to?

* Are teaching PROs self evident better players than their students? --> NO!

* Will the skill level of a teaching PRO improve, the minute he/she starts charging money for his/her lessons? --> NO!

* Are amateurs not willing to compete against their own teaching PRO, or are they afraid of it? --> I don't know the general opinion, but I would like to be able to compete against mine.

* Does a teaching PRO have an unfair advantage against his/her students? --> NO! Or maybe. A teaching PRO probably has more knowledge about what they are able/allowed to do during a round, according to the rules of the game. But that knowledge is accessable to the average amateur also, so it's not an unfair advantage.

So, look, at the end of the day, in order to make your case, you've got to:

1. Prove that pros WANT this rule to be changed (because, otherwise, why are we discussing it?)
2. Lay out a reasonable way in which it could be done.

You've not done #1 let alone #2.

Originally Posted by SweDeuS

* It could be determined by the handicap of the teaching PRO.

* It could be determined by the teaching level of the teaching PRO. Either by the level of the players he/she teaches, or by the level of degree that a PGA teaching PRO has.

* Or they could just state that: all teaching PROs are allowed to compete in amateur events. As long as they have not competed at a professional level as a player.

The last one is kind of an oxymoron (not really, but kinda). They're a pro, so they've given up their amateur status. The first one is silly because very few pros maintain a handicap. And the second is silly too because there's NO way to quantify the "teaching level" of the pro. And many aren't PGA at all.

Look, at the end, it boils down to something very simple: I can't name ANY pro who wants to compete as an amateur.

So I really don't see much of a point to this discussion, and I guess I don't really have more to say.

The OP hasn't been back to defend his position, either.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

The OP hasn't been back to defend his position, either.

Yeah, apparently it wasn't important enough for him to do more than troll.  He posted the same thing on another forum, and I stayed out of that one.  Not going to bother with it any more.  It really isn't that important to me - I was just mostly playing Devil's advocate.

[WUTiger]

Back in 1972, an assistant pro from the St. Louis area played his way via sectionals into the U.S. Open at Pebble Beach. He made the cut despite rough weather conditions. Nicklaus was eventual winner with 290 (+2 over par).

Anyway, the young assistant came back to town, and got the head pro job at a new country club that had just opened. Some 10 months later, he's playing to a 12 HDCP. Didn't get to play much in his new job.

It takes a little time management for pros to keep the game in shape. Don Clarkson, the longtime head pro at Old Warson C.C. during the 1970s, tried to pick up a club at least once a day. He kept his golf bag in the shop, He'd work on lag putts for 15 minutes on the practice green just outside the shop. Or, he would take a couple of irons 100 yards to the driving range and hit some shots. He'd get in 9 holes a couple of times a week with the members.

Don had a good supporting staff, along with a good sense of when he did and didn't need to be in the shop.

[SweDeuS]

Originally Posted by iacas

So, look, at the end of the day, in order to make your case, you've got to:

Prove that pros WANT this rule to be changed (because, otherwise, why are we discussing it?)

Lay out a reasonable way in which it could be done.

You've not done #1 let alone #2.

The last one is kind of an oxymoron (not really, but kinda). They're a pro, so they've given up their amateur status. The first one is silly because very few pros maintain a handicap. And the second is silly too because there's NO way to quantify the "teaching level" of the pro. And many aren't PGA at all.

Look, at the end, it boils down to something very simple: I can't name ANY pro who wants to compete as an amateur.

As I said regarding how to police the matter, it would probably be best if someone from the USGA presented some proposals. My suggestions maybe wasn't all that great but I didn't really spend much time comming up with them either. I'm sure that if the rule was to be changed in the future, the USGA would for sure come up with some simple and fair ways to regulate the matter.

As for the points you now wan't me to prove, you didn't mention them before. Or maybe I misunderstood you.

Prove that pros WANT this rule to be changed (because, otherwise, why are we discussing it? --> Well, we're discussing it because the OP brought it up. I'm not going to get into proving that pros want the rule to be changed. Partly because it would take alot of research and partly because maybe they don't even care about the rule. I'm just saying that I don't really see the point of the rule existing at all. And as I said earlier, I think that the biggest problem with the rule is that it might restrain the amount of people who would consider to become a teaching PRO.

"Look, at the end, it boils down to something very simple: I can't name ANY pro who wants to compete as an amateur." --> Agreed to the point that in order for the rule to be changed, teaching PROs need to wan't a change. Maybe they don't. I just don't see the point of a teacher being treated as a PRO, even though he/she has never competed at a professional level...

I don't know about any other sport where teachers or coaches are not allowed to compete in amateur games or events. So what's so great about the rule existing in golf? I stand by my opinion until proven what's so important with the rule for the game of golf.

[SweDeuS]

Just needed to add something.

Originally Posted by iacas

Prove that pros WANT this rule to be changed (because, otherwise, why are we discussing it?)

Look, at the end, it boils down to something very simple: I can't name ANY pro who wants to compete as an amateur.

Why do I need to prove that teaching PROs wants to compete in amateur events? It's not like a change of the rule would force any teaching PRO to compete with amateurs. It would just make it possible for those who actually wants to.

I think that the most relevant aspect would be to prove that amateurs don't want teaching PROs to be able to compete against them. Cause otherwise, whats the point of the rule at all?

[David in FL]

Just needed to add something. Why do I need to prove that teaching PROs wants to compete in amateur events? It's not like a change of the rule would force any teaching PRO to compete with amateurs. It would just make it possible for those who actually wants to. I think that the most relevant aspect would be to prove that amateurs don't want teaching PROs to be able to compete against them. Cause otherwise, whats the point of the rule at all?

I'm an amateur and would prefer to compete against other amateurs, rather than professionals. Does that help? :-)

[Golfingdad]

I'm an amateur and would prefer to compete against other amateurs, rather than professionals. Does that help? :-)

Me too!!!!!

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'm an amateur and would prefer to compete against other amateurs, rather than professionals.

Does that help?

Me too!!!!!

I don't really care.  I've actually beaten the head pro at my home course straight (my 76 to his 77) up at a time when I played to a 12 handicap.  I wouldn't expect to do that regularly, but it's fun to have bragging rights in the pro shop even for a couple of weeks.

[SweDeuS]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'm an amateur and would prefer to compete against other amateurs, rather than professionals.

Does that help?

Agreed! Though I don't consider teachers being professionals. Maybe thats where our opinions differ. To be a professional I feel you have to live off the game playing it, not teaching it...

[David in FL]

Agreed! Though I don't consider teachers being professionals. Maybe thats where our opinions differ. To be a professional I feel you have to live off the game playing it, not teaching it...

I'll bet the VAST majority of non-tour PGA professionals would disagree with your characterization of them as non-professional.

[SweDeuS]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'll bet the VAST majority of non-tour PGA professionals would disagree with your characterization of them as non-professional.

And I'll bet the VAST majority of the NFL coaches don't consider themself to be professional football players. Maybe I should have made myself more clear. I don't consider golf teachers/instructors to be profssional golf PLAYERS. Nothing disrespectful ment with that.

I'm just saying that golf is (what I know of) the only sport where coaches/teachers/instructors have the same professional status as those who make their living winning tournaments...

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweDeuS

Agreed! Though I don't consider teachers being professionals. Maybe thats where our opinions differ. To be a professional I feel you have to live off the game playing it, not teaching it...

I'll bet the VAST majority of non-tour PGA professionals would disagree with your characterization of them as non-professional.

You know darn well that the didn't mean that.  They are not professional golfers, they are professional teachers of golf.  He and I see that as a significant distinction.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I was just mostly playing Devil's advocate.

It's appreciated. I do it from time to time as well. ;)

Originally Posted by SweDeuS

Why do I need to prove that teaching PROs wants to compete in amateur events?

Because that speaks to whether this thread is simply a colossal waste of time and mental masturbation. :)

Originally Posted by SweDeuS

And I'll bet the VAST majority of the NFL coaches don't consider themself to be professional football players.

That's not the same thing. Caddies aren't necessarily pro players. Nor are superintendents, club salesmen, etc.

Originally Posted by SweDeuS

I don't consider golf teachers/instructors to be profssional golf PLAYERS.

The Rules don't make the distinction. There are simply pros and amateurs. There are no pro instructors who are also amateur players. :)

[SweDeuS]

Originally Posted by iacas

It's appreciated. I do it from time to time as well. ;)

Because that speaks to whether this thread is simply a colossal waste of time and mental masturbation. :)

That's not the same thing. Caddies aren't necessarily pro players. Nor are superintendents, club salesmen, etc.

The Rules don't make the distinction. There are simply pros and amateurs. There are no pro instructors who are also amateur players. :)

Well, if there are amateur players who would like to be able to play against teachers it still matters. If you consider it a waste of time I don't understand why you're here discussing it...

I wasn't talking about caddies, superintendants or club salesmen. Where did you get that from? I compared NFL coaches to golf teachers, or do you think NFL coaches are compareable to caddies etc? Then we could compare golf teachers to NFL waterboys or mascots if you'd like. I bet they neither consider themselves Football PROs...

I know that in todays rules there are simply pros and amateurs. It is a distinction between a teaching PRO and a playing PRO that I am suggesting. I don't think that they should be put in the same category...

[tens02]

I don't care much if I would have to play against teaching PROs, but I do think that the real problem lies elsewhere. What about ex-PGA Tour players getting reinstated as amateur players??? This happens and is completely insane. They have a huge advantage over AMs given their experience with tournament golf. I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this. It's is a much bigger issue than Joe Pro. Most pros can't compete with good amateur players anyways. They just can't practice enough....

[tens02]

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/oct/02/former-pros-winning-senior-am-now-trend/

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. This is silly and these guys are Pros.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by tens02

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/oct/02/former-pros-winning-senior-am-now-trend/

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. This is silly and these guys are Pros.

Good find. Why would any amateur want to shell out relatively big bucks to play in a national "amateur" tournament when it's more than likely made up of a lot of ex tour pros.