Vijay Singh admits to using banned substance in Sports Illustrated ...

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by caniac6

I guess I don't see the difference between Vijay and athletes in other sports. An Olympic athlete is tested after an event, and if the test is positive, their medal is taken. Your right, I don't know if first time offenders are treated differently by the PGA tour, but first time offenders in baseball get 50 games which is just a bit less than a third of the season. Lance Armstrong was stripped of all his Tour de France titles, so I don't see anything wrong with retroactive punishment.

But even in baseball they still don't suspend somebody the moment they are found to be in violation, or the moment they confess.  Heck, they don't even get suspended the moment they are suspended because frequently they go through the appeal process first.

In football, I believe that they never get suspended until meeting with the commissioner first, so if they are scheduled to play the Giants or Jets in two weeks, they will wait until then to start the suspension.

Point is, be patient.  I'm sure something is coming down on him, whether it be announced next week or in 3, it's going to happen.  In the meantime, he gets to play.  That's fair.

[dave67az]

I hadn't seen this posted (probably just missed it, because I would imagine someone would have found it before me...I'm kinda slow sometimes) but this is just on e more thing I found online.  It's the PGA Tour Anti Doping Program manual from 2009 (not sure if all of it is still current).  Positive tests are not necessary when you confess to it, so I don't know why Vijay would have thought he'd be immune to any punishment.

(here's the link if you want to read the entire publication)
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/208240/PGATOURANTI-DOPINGPROGRAMMANUAL2009_1_.pdf

From Section 1 (page 3)

"If you are unsure of a product’s ingredients, you should not take that product until you are sure it does not contain any prohibited substance(s). In addition, the manufacturing and labeling of supplements are not subject to strict regulation, which may lead to a supplement containing a substance that is prohibited under the Program, even though that substance is not listed as an ingredient. In years past, positive test results in other sports have been attributed to the use of mislabeled supplements. Since taking a poorly labeled supplement is not a defense to a violation of the Program, you are urged to exercise caution and conduct appropriate research when using these products. "

(also bolded in the source...apparently the PGA wanted to emphasize that point, huh?)

From Section 2, this is Subsection D.  (paragraph 8 seems to be pretty clear)

PROHIBITED CONDUCT
The following constitute anti-doping rule violations under the Program:

(1) The presence of a Prohibited Substance or its Metabolites or Markers in a player’s sample.
(a) I t is each player’s personal duty to ensure that no Prohibited Substance enters his body. Players are responsible for any Prohibited Substance or its Metabolites or Markers found to be present in their samples. Accordingly, it is not necessary that intent, fault, negligence or knowing use on the player’s part be demonstrated in order to establish an anti-doping violation under Section D(1).
(b) S ufficient proof of an anti-doping rule violation under Section D(1) is established by either of the following: (1) an Adverse Analytical Finding upon analysis of the player’s A sample where the player waives analysis of the B sample or, (2) where the player’s B sample is analyzed, the analysis of the player’s B sample confirms the presence of the Prohibited Substance or its  Metabolites or Markers found in the player’s A sample.
(c) E xcepting those substances for which a quantitative reporting threshold is specifically identified in the PGA TOUR Prohibited List, the presence of any quantity of a Prohibited Substance or its Metabolites or Markers in a player’s sample shall constitute an antidoping rule violation.

(d) As an exception to the general rule of Section D(1)(c), the PGA TOUR Prohibited List may establish special criteria for the evaluation of Prohibited Substances that can also be produced Endogenously.

(2) Use or Attempted Use by a player of a Prohibited Substance or a Prohibited Method. The success or failure of the use of a Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method is not relevant. It is sufficient that the Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method was Used or Attempted to be Used for an anti-doping rule violation to be committed.

(3) Refusing, or failing without compelling  justification, to submit to sample collection after notification or otherwise evading sample collection.

(4) Tampering, or Attempting to Tamper, with any part of Doping Control.

(5) Possession by a player of any Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method, unless the player establishes that the Possession is pursuant to a therapeutic use exemption granted in accordance with Section F (Therapeutic Use Exemptions) or other acceptable justification.

(6) Trafficking in any Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method.

(7) Administration or Attempted administration to any player of any Prohibited Substance or Prohibited Method, or assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up or any other type of complicity involving an anti-doping rule violation or any Attempted anti-doping rule violation.

(8) Admissions by a player of any of the conduct listed in Sections (1) - (7) above.

Section 2, Subsection H "Results Management", paragraph 5

"At such time as the Program Administrator determines that a player may have committed an anti-doping rule violation, the player shall be Notified of the potential violation. The player shall have seven (7) calendar days from such Notice to provide a written explanation to the Program Administrator. The Program Administrator shall consider any information submitted by the player and shall then decide whether to go forward with an anti-doping rule violation against the player. If the Program Administrator’s decision is to go forward with an anti-doping rule violation, the player shall be Notified of the sanction which will be imposed. That sanction will be imposed seven (7) calendar days after notification unless the player advises the Program Administrator in writing that he desires to appeal the Program Administrator’s decision to the Commissioner. If the player fails to appeal within the time specified, then the Program Administrator’s decision shall be final and not subject to any further challenge or appeal."

Section 2, Subsection I "Appeals to the Commissioner" includes the following

The PGA TOUR shall have the burden of establishing by a balance of probability that an antidoping rule violation occurred. Facts related to anti-doping rule violations may be established by any reliable means including, but not limited to, admissions, witness statements, documentary evidence, or conclusions drawn from longitudinal profiling or other analytical information which does not otherwise satisfy all of the requirements to establish a violation for Section D(1).

Section 2, Subsection K "Sanctions" lists all possible sanctions.  Note, there is NO statement of leniency for first-time offenses as someone suggested.  Each case is evaluated on its own merit (as they should be).

SANCTIONS
Sanctions on players may include:
(1) Disqualification, including loss of results, points, and prize money from the date the antidoping rule violation was found to occur forward.
(2) Ineligibility to participate in PGA TOUR competitions or other activities.
(a) The applicable period of Ineligibility for a first anti-doping rule violation under the Program, other than for Drugs of Abuse, shall be up to one year Ineligibility except in cases involving Trafficking, administration, or Aggravating Circumstances, where the sanction may be up to permanent Ineligibility.
(b) The applicable period of Ineligibility for a second anti-doping rule violation under the Program, other than for Drugs of Abuse, shall be up to five (5) years Ineligibility except in cases involving Trafficking, administration, or Aggravating Circumstances, where the sanction may be up to permanent Ineligibility.
(c) The applicable period of Ineligibility for a third anti-doping rule violation under the Program, other than Drugs of Abuse, shall be up to a permanent ban.
(3) A player committing an anti-doping rule violation under the Program may also be subject to the imposition of a fine in an amount up to $500,000.
(4) Sanctions for Drugs of Abuse shall include a PGA TOUR-approved plan of treatment and rehabilitation to be conducted at the player’s expense, in addition to or in lieu of Ineligibility and fines.
(5) I n applying these sanctions in a particular case, the Program Administrator and the Commissioner’s designee may, except for Drugs of Abuse, look for guidance to International Anti-Doping Standards.
(6) The PGA TOUR reserves the right to not impose any sanction if that sanction would benefit a player’s standing in any manner (e.g., rankings, points).
In rendering the final decision in a particular case, the Commissioner may depart from the sanction guidance in the International Anti-Doping Standards as he deems appropriate in a particular case.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But even in baseball they still don't suspend somebody the moment they are found to be in violation, or the moment they confess.  Heck, they don't even get suspended the moment they are suspended because frequently they go through the appeal process first.

In football, I believe that they never get suspended until meeting with the commissioner first, so if they are scheduled to play the Giants or Jets in two weeks, they will wait until then to start the suspension.

Point is, be patient.  I'm sure something is coming down on him, whether it be announced next week or in 3, it's going to happen.  In the meantime, he gets to play.  That's fair.

According to the PGA (as I found after I posted my first post today) the player must be notified he has committed a violation.  Sanctions are imposed 7 days after, if the player does not appeal/explain the incident.  To wait any longer just makes the PGA look like they aren't even capable of following their own rules.  They need to penalize themselves the same way honest golfers do.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by dave67az

According to the PGA (as I found after I posted my first post today) the player must be notified he has committed a violation.  Sanctions are imposed 7 days after, if the player does not appeal/explain the incident.  To wait any longer just makes the PGA look like they aren't even capable of following their own rules.  They need to penalize themselves the same way honest golfers do.

That makes sense, but if it's anything like the legal system, a confession does not equal a violation officially, so they still have to go through their protocols prior to notifying him.  Even if they've already notified him immediately after the confession, it still hasn't been a week yet has it?  Maybe they announce it tonight or tomorrow?

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But even in baseball they still don't suspend somebody the moment they are found to be in violation, or the moment they confess.  Heck, they don't even get suspended the moment they are suspended because frequently they go through the appeal process first.

In football, I believe that they never get suspended until meeting with the commissioner first, so if they are scheduled to play the Giants or Jets in two weeks, they will wait until then to start the suspension.

Point is, be patient.  I'm sure something is coming down on him, whether it be announced next week or in 3, it's going to happen.  In the meantime, he gets to play.  That's fair.

The Tour does not announce disciplinary actions.

[Golfingdad]

The Tour does not announce disciplinary actions.

Interesting. And now that you mention it, I feel like I've heard that before. So I guess after he doesn't play for a certain period of time it's just up to us to guess unless vijay volunteers the info.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by turtleback

The Tour does not announce disciplinary actions.

We'll have to watch and see if he has to miss a tourney here or there because of "family emergencies".  lol

[Chilli Dipper]

We'll have to watch and see if he has to miss a tourney here or there because of "family emergencies".  lol

Or, more likely, if he enters tournaments in Southeast Asia instead of Florida leading up to the Masters.

[Chas]

Thanks for posting the info Dave67, clearly he's toast under PROHIBITED CONDUCT (2).  The 'pharmacodynamic defense' that I had in mind, i.e. lack of systemic drug at effective concentrations, isn't going to cut it.

Let this be a lesson .....

[caniac6]

Originally Posted by turtleback

The Tour does not announce disciplinary actions.

How did the public find out about Doug Baron and Matt Every?

[newtogolf]

I'm not defending athletes that use steroids or real PED's but deer antler spray isn't a real PED, nor is half the stuff on the list.   If you believe that "sports are about people competing on equal ground" then you must be chasing rainbows and unicorns too.  Sports are about money, even the Olympics is about money and endorsements.

There is no equal ground, as anything an athlete does to improve their ability in the sport provides them an advantage.  Do you really believe Tiger, Phil or Rory with all their money, access to the best trainers, coaches, equipment, nutrition experts, hyperbaric sleep chambers, food and supplements are on equal ground with a guy that just made it on the Tour?

Quote:

I don't buy Vijay's claim that he used deer antler spray but he didn't know it had a banned substance in it.  Here's the problem with that logic.  The dude used a chemical/substance which he thought would aid him in some way.  Pro athletes (and amateur, for that matter) don't seem to be getting the message.  Look, people...sports are about people competing on equal ground.  If you're putting something in or on your body for the sole purpose of improving your performance, whether it's banned or not, you are guilty of using a performance-enhancing product.

[dave67az]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'm not defending athletes that use steroids or real PED's but deer antler spray isn't a real PED, nor is half the stuff on the list.   If you believe that "sports are about people competing on equal ground" then you must be chasing rainbows and unicorns too.  Sports are about money, even the Olympics is about money and endorsements.

There is no equal ground, as anything an athlete does to improve their ability in the sport provides them an advantage.  Do you really believe Tiger, Phil or Rory with all their money, access to the best trainers, coaches, equipment, nutrition experts, hyperbaric sleep chambers, food and supplements are on equal ground with a guy that just made it on the Tour?

Quote:

You're absolutely right about "equal ground" because clearly some athletes also start at a younger age, and this gives them a huge advantage.  I believe there is a huge distinction between having access to trainers, coaches, and nutrition experts and PEDs.  We have a great advantage on The Sand Trap because we also have access to some pretty awesome knowledge and experience of people who are far better golfers than us.  But spend a little time on the member-swings section and it doesn't take long to realize that just having someone tell you what you're doing wrong doesn't fix the problem.  It still take hours and hours, weeks and weeks of practice to improve.  The amount of effort required to actually improve is enormous compared the the effort required to swallow a pill or receive an injection.

There's also a line when it comes to equipment and the PGA, USGA, R&A;, etc. do a decent job (in my opinion) of reining in manufacturers and ensuring that while equipment is allowed to gradually evolve as technology improves, they do what they feel necessary to protect the game and its traditions from huge leaps.  I'm betting it's possible to create a ball/club combination that carries 400 yards and stops on a dime with no chances of slice/hook.  There are also putters, some claim, that help minimize the effect of nerves/yips when it comes to putting (I wonder, maybe we should start a thread discussing those putters...nah...nobody would want to talk about that).  Others claim that nerves/yips are such a problem in their game that they SHOULD be allowed to use any methods to eliminate them because it's not fair that other golfers aren't as bothered by nerves as they are.

Want to know why Beta Blockers are banned?  Because they do the same thing that it is claimed that anchored putters do.

The following is from page 30 of the PGA Anti-Doping Program Manual:

" How could Beta Blockers be used to enhance performance in golf?
Athletes may misuse beta blockers to decrease heart rate, steady nerves, and stop muscle tremor.  Beta blockers can decrease anxiety to help control various fine motor skills."

Seems to me the goal of the USGA, R&A;, and even the PGA (by choosing to follow USGA rules and not have their own ruleset...yet) is to play the game as "purely" as possible, creating a playing field that rewards the skill gained by a combination of talent and a life-long dedication to practice, while trying to eliminate a fair amount of short-cuts that golfers would take if they had a choice between, say, a drug and 4 hours a week in the weight room.

And while there are no studies that PROVE that Deer Antler Spray, for instance, is an effective PED, the fact that it does contain chemicals that, if injected, HAVE been proven to enhance performance, the mere attempt to use it in spray form to improve your health or performance (and you'd be hard-pressed to argue that Vijay wasn't doing this) is a clear violation of the spirit of the rule and, as such, should not be tolerated.

We can't completely level the playing field unless we just decide to stop keeping score and stop rewarding winners.  They've already ruined little league in this country by creating leagues where everyone gets a flippin' trophy and nobody has to be subjected to the emotionally traumatic risk of losing anything.  If you want to level the playing field, all pros would have to have a handicap just like amateurs.  I don't think anyone really wants that.

[newtogolf]

Let's dispel some myths and fallacies the media has propagated about PED's.  PED's aren't magic, you don't swallow a pill and wake up the next day looking like the Hulk.

Most PED's are taken because they enable athletes to workout harder and recover faster.  The key term is "workout", you have to go to the gym and bust your butt to see any real results.  You might work with someone on PED's or TRT and not even know they are because they aren't working out and eating to gain size, A-Rod would be a prime example of someone using PED's but doesn't look it..

To get the massive gains you see in professional body builders you'd have to stack a number of steroids with HGH, eat about 5000+ calories of lean food (protein) and spend about 3-5 hours in a gym.  I've trained guys in gyms that are clean and juiced, don't let the media fool you, juiced guys kill it in the gym, they aren't just swallowing a pill.   Don't underestimate the value of top notch trainers and a high quality lean diet as there are a number of clean bodybuilders and weight lifters that could hold their own and out lift guys on PED's.

The point is the media has gotten on the PED's soapbox and everyone is believing what the talking heads say.  The reality is most PED's are worthless, about 80% of what's on the IOC banned list fits into the worthless category.  Proper training and nutrition are 100% required to become a pro athlete and that doesn't come cheap.  As I said earlier, alcohol, aspirin and nicotine are more of a PED than deer antler spray and most other products on the banned list.

PEDS testing is a feel good to make everyone believe there's some equal ground in sports but it's an illusion.

Originally Posted by dave67az

You're absolutely right about "equal ground" because clearly some athletes also start at a younger age, and this gives them a huge advantage.  I believe there is a huge distinction between having access to trainers, coaches, and nutrition experts and PEDs.  We have a great advantage on The Sand Trap because we also have access to some pretty awesome knowledge and experience of people who are far better golfers than us.  But spend a little time on the member-swings section and it doesn't take long to realize that just having someone tell you what you're doing wrong doesn't fix the problem.  It still take hours and hours, weeks and weeks of practice to improve.  The amount of effort required to actually improve is enormous compared the the effort required to swallow a pill or receive an injection.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Let's dispel some myths and fallacies the media has propagated about PED's.  PED's aren't magic, you don't swallow a pill and wake up the next day looking like the Hulk.

Most PED's are taken because they enable athletes to workout harder and recover faster.  The key term is "workout", you have to go to the gym and bust your butt to see any real results.  You might work with someone on PED's or TRT and not even know they are because they aren't working out and eating to gain size, A-Rod would be a prime example of someone using PED's but doesn't look it..

To get the massive gains you see in professional body builders you'd have to stack a number of steroids with HGH, eat about 5000+ calories of lean food (protein) and spend about 3-5 hours in a gym.  I've trained guys in gyms that are clean and juiced, don't let the media fool you, juiced guys kill it in the gym, they aren't just swallowing a pill.   Don't underestimate the value of top notch trainers and a high quality lean diet as there are a number of clean bodybuilders and weight lifters that could hold their own and out lift guys on PED's.

The point is the media has gotten on the PED's soapbox and everyone is believing what the talking heads say.  The reality is most PED's are worthless, about 80% of what's on the IOC banned list fits into the worthless category.  Proper training and nutrition are 100% required to become a pro athlete and that doesn't come cheap.  As I said earlier, alcohol, aspirin and nicotine are more of a PED than deer antler spray and most other products on the banned list.

PEDS testing is a feel good to make everyone believe there's some equal ground in sports but it's an illusion.

I appreciate and agree with (I have no expertise, therefore no basis to disagree) everything you said.  However, I believe that the real "point" here is simply that Vijay broke the rule.  I'm following the conversation you guys are having about "equal ground" and agree that there is no such thing.  But, of all the factors making things "unequal" there is one, and only one, that has a grey area and athletes should know to be careful when they endeavor there ... and that when you put stuff in and on your body besides food.  These guys should know to be careful in those respects.  Vijay (and all other athletes whose defense is something along the lines of "oops, I didn't know it was bad" - which, coincidentally, seems to be a lot of them) should be smart enough to run something by a guy he trusts with a background like yours before he takes something like this.

Really, isn't that just common sense?  Some weird guy comes to you touting the magical powers of some chemical spray and you just take his word for it?

I get that these PEDs lists have things on them that maybe aren't PEDs, but that is only a secondary issue here.

[newtogolf]

With regards to Vijay, you and Dave are 100% right, he broke a rule and should be penalized.

It's the rule and the list that I have issue with as the media's obsession with PED's has gotten out of control.  As we saw with guys like Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds, if you have the means and resources you can still use banned substances and test clean.

Quote:

I appreciate and agree with (I have no expertise, therefore no basis to disagree) everything you said.  However, I believe that the real "point" here is simply that Vijay broke the rule.  I'm following the conversation you guys are having about "equal ground" and agree that there is no such thing.  But, of all the factors making things "unequal" there is one, and only one, that has a grey area and athletes should know to be careful when they endeavor there ... and that when you put stuff in and on your body besides food.  These guys should know to be careful in those respects.  Vijay (and all other athletes whose defense is something along the lines of "oops, I didn't know it was bad" - which, coincidentally, seems to be a lot of them) should be smart enough to run something by a guy he trusts with a background like yours before he takes something like this.

Really, isn't that just common sense?  Some weird guy comes to you touting the magical powers of some chemical spray and you just take his word for it?

I get that these PEDs lists have things on them that maybe aren't PEDs, but that is only a secondary issue here.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

With regards to Vijay, you and Dave are 100% right, he broke a rule and should be penalized.

It's the rule and the list that I have issue with as the media's obsession with PED's has gotten out of control.  As we saw with guys like Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds, if you have the means and resources you can still use banned substances and test clean.

Yeah, I agree and I think that the big issue might simply be the moniker "PED."  Like you said in your previous post, most of the PEDs do nothing, and the ones that do really only help you train harder and recover faster.  I think people take the acronym too literally.  "He took a PED?  Ah, well no wonder he's so good."  Maybe they should just go back to calling them "illegal drugs" or "illegal substances."

Is deer antler juice technically a "drug" anyway?  I don't even know what the exact definition is now.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

With regards to Vijay, you and Dave are 100% right, he broke a rule and should be penalized.

It's the rule and the list that I have issue with as the media's obsession with PED's has gotten out of control.  As we saw with guys like Lance Armstrong and Barry Bonds, if you have the means and resources you can still use banned substances and test clean.

Quote:

So what's the answer, don't test, go back to teenage cyclists stuffing so much EPO into their body that their blood turns to jam and die? Not very appealing.

Also, the IOC list covers all potential PEDS not just items that help build muscle, plus those drugs that might be used to mask the PED.

Having said that things can be crazy a Scottish skier won bronze in the Olympic Slalom at Salt Lake and had it stripped for a positive test. The reason, Vicks Synex has different formulas in the UK & the US. He had the UK product approved for use by the British doctors but when he needed some whilst at the olympics purchased one from a drugs store, contained ephedrine in the US and he was dq'ed.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

So what's the answer, don't test, go back to teenage cyclists stuffing so much EPO into their body that their blood turns to jam and die? Not very appealing.

Also, the IOC list covers all potential PEDS not just items that help build muscle, plus those drugs that might be used to mask the PED.

Having said that things can be crazy a Scottish skier won bronze in the Olympic Slalom at Salt Lake and had it stripped for a positive test. The reason, Vicks Synex has different formulas in the UK & the US. He had the UK product approved for use by the British doctors but when he needed some whilst at the olympics purchased one from a drugs store, contained ephedrine in the US and he was dq'ed.

This is the answer. ;)

http://www.hulu.com/#!watch/4090