Handicap versus Clubhead Speed/Driving Distance

[NM Golf]

Originally Posted by kaplack

Chart is not to be taken serious I have played with many guys who can hit a 30plus drive and have never broke 90.

I have played with a bunch of guys who drive it 225 and break 80.

I have been playing golf and working at a golf course for 20+ years. Your comment above is a load of . That is not the case, you could never prove this. It is a fabrication because you feel slighted by the data in the chart.

People get so emotional at the mention of distance. I guess its an ego thing, is someone less of a man if their best drive only goes 225? Well guess what people, driving distance and manliness have no correlation what-so-ever. So get you panties unwadded and get on with your life. Many, many great men could not hit a golf ball at all.

This chart, while not perfect, shows very valid data. There is most definitely a correlation between swing speed and handicap. How many guys on the PGA Tour have swing speeds under 100MPH? How about none. Why, because in general better players swing the club more efficiently, generating higher swing speeds and better contact with the ball. The only problem with the chart is it looks to show that those with high swing speeds always have lower handicaps. That is not necessarily true. Swing speed is just one of several factors in the make up someone's ability, but it is still a factor.

I play many rounds with guys who do not possess great swing speeds. They struggle from the fact that GIR affects score more than any other factor. They hit the ball 225yards with a driver. That means they come into many par 4's with long irons, hybrids, or fairway woods. Its difficult for even the most accurate player to consistently hit greens using those clubs, and even more difficult to hit the ball close to the hole. Many of them have fantastic short games, but that just means they are having to one putt for par a lot, and have very very few legitimate birdie looks.

[parallax]

I think the chart is interesting, and I think statistics is for idiots.

Most people don't understand how statistics provide useful information, and how they can be manipulated. When you have statistics about a group of people, they provide little insight about individuals in that group.

For example, if I provided you with a statistic that "90% of golfers complain and whine more than their wives", it doesn't mean that since you are a golfer there is a 90% chance that you complain and whine more than your wife.

I think the chart can be improved in two ways.

1) Each dot (which represents a handicap average swing speed), should also include a vertical line (which represents the range of swing speeds at that handicap).

2) Each of these vertical lines, should have a color gradient that represents where clusters of swing speeds for those HC's are located.

[iacas]

This seems relevant:

[mvmac]

This seems relevant:

Big drop in distance from a Club Pro (0) to a 4 handicap.

[newtogolf]

This chart and others like it are why I'm always skeptical when a guy on the internet says he averages 300+ yard drives but is only a 15 handicap.  I get this is a chart of averages, and there are always outliers but why does it seems there is such a huge concentration of outliers on internet forums?

[Golfingdad]

This chart and others like it are why I'm always skeptical when a guy on the internet says he averages 300+ yard drives but is only a 15 handicap.  I get this is a chart of averages, and there are always outliers but why does it seems there is such a huge concentration of outliers on internet forums?

I think, though, that there is one difference ... I think most people (and fairly so) judge their "average" driver distance as their average on good, or decent, shots.  I topped one 80 yards last time out, thinned one into the woods that probably only went 190-200, and used the driver, I think, 9 times.  The rest of my drives were decent.  Ranging from probably about 230 (in the bunker) to 270.  Let's just say 250 average to make it easy.  My average drive that day, based on those numbers was 225.  I'm currently a 7 handicap.  I couldn't possibly fit more perfectly into that chart if I tried.

But if you ask me what my driving distance is, I'm going to say I average about 260.  (Probably still a little inflated - I should probably say 250 - but, we all have a little bit of an ego, right? ;))

So, even amongst people who are truthful with their numbers, I think that might be part of the reason for the discrepancy.

[Lihu]

This chart and others like it are why I'm always skeptical when a guy on the internet says he averages 300+ yard drives but is only a 15 handicap.  I get this is a chart of averages, and there are always outliers but why does it seems there is such a huge concentration of outliers on internet forums?

From a logical argument standpoint, I read the chart as the drive distance is a necessary condition to get to a certain handicap. Not, that a handicap is required to drive a certain distance. I agree that the chart implies that, but I think it was just a convenient way to plot the data. If I went by the chart, I should be a 4 handicap, which I'm not. :-P

[mvmac]

This chart and others like it are why I'm always skeptical when a guy on the internet says he averages 300+ yard drives but is only a 15 handicap.  I get this is a chart of averages, and there are always outliers but why does it seems there is such a huge concentration of outliers on internet forums?

People are delusional.  Similar to what Golfingdad said, they figure out how far they hit a 7 iron based on the absolute best shot they've ever hit with a 7 iron.

But if you ask me what my driving distance is, I'm going to say I average about 260.  (Probably still a little inflated - I should probably say 250 - but, we all have a little bit of an ego, right? ;))

So, even amongst people who are truthful with their numbers, I think that might be part of the reason for the discrepancy.

I'm pretty sure you hit it farther than that.  Part of the reason you're above average with speed is due to your height and strength.  And you're probably juicing

From a logical argument standpoint, I read the chart as the drive distance is a necessary condition to get to a certain handicap. Not, that a handicap is required to drive a certain distance.

I agree that the chart implies that, but I think it was just a convenient way to plot the data.

If I went by the chart, I should be a 4 handicap, which I'm not.

I tend to read it as lower handicaps have better mechanics than higher handicaps, which means that they effectively deliver more "power" to the ball.  Through better contact and the ability to create more leverage.  Basically lower handicappers have a better grasp of Keys 2 and 3.  Obviously there are other things at play, I could work my way to having a "perfect" impact and never hit it as far as Tiger Woods but I also wouldn't be hitting it 220 off the tee.

[billchao]

People are delusional.  Similar to what Golfingdad said, they figure out how far they hit a 7 iron based on the absolute best shot they've ever hit with a 7 iron.

I think this hits the heart of the problem. People tend to ignore the "average" part of the discussion. The write off mishits as mistakes and anomalies. Then they see their perfect shots and say "well, when I stripe it, I hit it 280, so therefore I hit my driver 280." Of course, when you hit it 280 once out of thirty tries, it's an anomaly, too.

I can hit it 300. I don't average 300. HUGE difference there.

[Lihu]

Basically lower handicappers have a better grasp of Keys 2 and 3...

Is this a hint to start looking at key 3? ;-)

[jamo]

This chart and others like it are why I'm always skeptical when a guy on the internet says he averages 300+ yard drives but is only a 15 handicap.  I get this is a chart of averages, and there are always outliers but why does it seems there is such a huge concentration of outliers on internet forums?

I also think a lot of people do the "hole yardage - yardage to go = driving distance" thing, which is almost ever accurate.

[meenman]

My true tee shot average (non par 3 holes) is 187, including duffs(not many), all those trees I hit 100 yards in front of me on the left, etc. It also includes holes where I tee off with a club other than a driver (which generally only happens when I play somewhere other than my home course, which is not often) This is based on skygolf computing that average from my skycaddie. So according to the chart, I should be about a 17 handicap - I have never been below a 19 and with little time to practice I should be over 24 on the next revision. Either that, or I should expect my average drive to drop to 150 yards..........

[Pinseeker81]

I hope this is true. It means +2 or +3 should be right around the corner

The way I stunk up my iron shots today suggests otherwise.

[dsc123]

I often see things on this site, and then a month or two later, in the golfing mags.  This doesn't exactly fit that, but reminded me of this thread...

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/blogs/theinstructionblog/2014/02/fitness-friday-fantasy-vs-real.html

[Lihu]

I often see things on this site, and then a month or two later, in the golfing mags.  This doesn't exactly fit that, but reminded me of this thread...

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/blogs/theinstructionblog/2014/02/fitness-friday-fantasy-vs-real.html

I mentioned in another thread that the chart has to make some assumptions about the short game.

All the 15+/-5 handicappers I know hit much farther than the chart suggests, even I do and I'm off the chart.

I agree that most people hit 200 yards, thinking they are hitting much farther. I meet these guys every weekend.

[dsc123]

I mentioned in another thread that the chart has to make some assumptions about the short game.

All the 15+/-5 handicappers I know hit much farther than the chart suggests, even I do and I'm off the chart.

I agree that most people hit 200 yards, thinking they are hitting much farther. I meet these guys every weekend.

I am about an 11hc and last time I got fitted my driver swing speed was around 101, 102, which puts me way over the average ss for my HC.  That doesn't mean my short game is holding me back, it could be anything.  This just charts speed, not quality of contact, or even distance.

And I think when you look at these things you've got to remember that the data probably comes from people who are more dedicated to the game.  Most people you run into on a saturday at the local muni have never taken a lesson, don't keep a handicap, etc.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

I mentioned in another thread that the chart has to make some assumptions about the short game.

All the 15+/-5 handicappers I know hit much farther than the chart suggests, even I do and I'm off the chart.

I agree that most people hit 200 yards, thinking they are hitting much farther. I meet these guys every weekend.

I am about an 11hc and last time I got fitted my driver swing speed was around 101, 102, which puts me way over the average ss for my HC.  That doesn't mean my short game is holding me back, it could be anything.  This just charts speed, not quality of contact, or even distance.

And I think when you look at these things you've got to remember that the data probably comes from people who are more dedicated to the game.  Most people you run into on a saturday at the local muni have never taken a lesson, don't keep a handicap, etc.

Copied over from another thread

I was thinking about my responses, and the "15" handicappers I know.

At least one of the people I know is on this forum, and I know he averages farther than 250 carry with a 15.8 handicap. This might skew the data for me. He is probably taking 5SK, evolvr or at least using the information on this site, and probably has a better swing than most 15 handicappers. I have not played with the ones on this forum that fit your chart, but was told by them that they are a short hitter after an outing. So, we are at 50/50 with the ones I know from this site.

I was given a 17.3 handicap, which turns out to be surprisingly accurate, and have been taking 5SK style lessons. So, maybe my swings are better than your typical 15 handicap, I will add some more current swings to MySwing thread for you to evaluate. I think I have finally combined keys 1 to 3, to be judged on the 8th of March.

However, my experience is really limited. I don't know how a "typical "15 handicap swings the club, I only know that I get past the red stakes (and the other "15" handicappers I know hit just as far or farther in the case of the one on this site) a lot of the times on short par 4. Even the longer 440 yard ones are usually driver-iron.

I will admit that my responses might be skewed, because of the training I am getting.