Searching for ball

[rogolf]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

How so?  It will be slightly faster by exactly the amount of time saved by only traveling most of the way.  Alternative #2 has him traveling all of the way, so that will take longer.  On the other hand, if you are already most of the way there, you're not going to go back now before you look because if you do and then come back and DO find it, then you just wasted a bunch of time.

Of course, around here, playing a busy course where you're waiting to hit your hext shot anyway, it's a moot point.

OK, so what they are saying is that this rule has some wiggle room.  (In that it's not really a rule, I guess)  You're not going to be penalized for doing something like I mentioned in my previous post, but they also don't want you doing what we're talking about either.  Going forward most of the way, then deciding to come back and hit a provisional, THEN going to look and actually finding it.

"Going forward to search" has a very narrow definition.  If you go 40 yards forward, other than to get another ball or club from your bag, then decide to return to play a "provisional", the ball you play is not a provisional, it is your ball in play and the original ball is lost by definition.

[Fourputt]

The whole point of playing a provisional ball is to save time in the event that your original ball is found out of bounds or lost.  Once you have gone forward with the obvious intent of going to your ball, then you have forfeited the right to play a provisional because you would be wasting time rather than saving it.  The rule is written in that way so that you can play a provisional ball if there is any doubt - it doesn't have to be virtually certain that the original ball is gone.  If you go forward and leave the area where you played the stroke, you have simply forfeited that option.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If there is any doubt at all, I play a provisional ball as soon as the rest of my group has hit.  I'm guessing that I probably average at least one provisional ball every couple of rounds.  It saves time while still allowing me to play by the rules.

[dsc123]

What's dumb about it? It was ok for him to go forward, look for his ball and then go back and play his provisional before going forward to continue the search again. As long as it all happened within 5 minutes.  The only thing you can't do it go forward to look for your ball, then go back to where you played from originally and put a provisional in play, and then return to searching again. I can't think of too many situations where doing that would save time.

[quote name="Fourputt" url="/t/64783/searching-for-ball#post_809288"]The whole point of playing a provisional ball is to save time in the event that your original ball is found out of bounds or lost.  Once you have gone forward with the obvious intent of going to your ball, then you have forfeited the right to play a provisional because you would be wasting time rather than saving it.  The rule is written in that way so that you can play a provisional ball if there is any doubt - it doesn't have to be virtually certain that the original ball is gone.  If you go forward and leave the area where you played the stroke, you have simply forfeited that option. Seems pretty simple to me.  If there is any doubt at all, I play a provisional ball as soon as the rest of my group has hit.  I'm guessing that I probably average at least one provisional ball every couple of rounds.  It saves time while still allowing me to play by the rules. [/quote] Op said he couldn't hit his provisional because the group in front was too close, so he zoomed up to see if he could find it while they waited. The alternative would have been to stand there and wait, then hit his ball, then look. Makes sense to me that he should be able to use the down time. I understand that you can't by the rules, but that's

[Golfingdad]

Op said he couldn't hit his provisional because the group in front was too close, so he zoomed up to see if he could find it while they waited. The alternative would have been to stand there and wait, then hit his ball, then look. Makes sense to me that he should be able to use the down time. I understand that you can't by the rules, but that's

This discussion is slightly off topic because it doesn't pertain to op. he was talking about hitting his provisional a second time ... This is in regards to playing a provisional for the first time :)

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

This discussion is slightly off topic because it doesn't pertain to op. he was talking about hitting his provisional a second time ... This is in regards to playing a provisional for the first time :)

Exactly.  I'm sorry if my post confused matters. I was just trying to explain the opponent's apparent misreading of the rule by pointing to something similar, but different, than his understanding of the rule,

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Exactly.  I'm sorry if my post confused matters. I was just trying to explain the opponent's apparent misreading of the rule by pointing to something similar, but different, than his understanding of the rule,

Nah, you cleared it up.  And I bet you were right about his opponent's thought process.  I'm the one who questioned the rule and started this whole side discussion.

And I wasn't saying it's off topic in a "we shouldn't talk about it" sense, but just to explain to dsc that the rule we are discussing isn't relevant to the OP's situation. :)

[SCfanatic35]

Originally Posted by Mordan

There's even a decision which matches your situation:

27-2b/3 Original Ball Is Beyond Provisional Ball; Player Searches Briefly for Original Ball, Plays Provisional Ball and Then Finds Original Ball

Q. A player's provisional ball comes to rest short of where the original ball is likely to be. After a two-minute search for the original ball, the player goes back, plays a second stroke with the provisional ball and then his original ball is found within the five-minute time limit. What is the ruling?

A. The player must continue play with the original ball. Play of a provisional ball does not render the original ball lost until it has been played from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (Rule 27-2b).

So in the future if the same situation where to occur, I would hit my 2nd shot on my provisional and then start to look for my original shot. That way I get the full 5 minutes to look and not have to waste some of my time driving back and forth.  I just assumed that for the sake of speeding up that would be the way to go.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by dsc123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordan

What's dumb about it? It was ok for him to go forward, look for his ball and then go back and play his provisional before going forward to continue the search again. As long as it all happened within 5 minutes.

The only thing you can't do it go forward to look for your ball, then go back to where you played from originally and put a provisional in play, and then return to searching again. I can't think of too many situations where doing that would save time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The whole point of playing a provisional ball is to save time in the event that your original ball is found out of bounds or lost.  Once you have gone forward with the obvious intent of going to your ball, then you have forfeited the right to play a provisional because you would be wasting time rather than saving it.  The rule is written in that way so that you can play a provisional ball if there is any doubt - it doesn't have to be virtually certain that the original ball is gone.  If you go forward and leave the area where you played the stroke, you have simply forfeited that option.

Seems pretty simple to me.  If there is any doubt at all, I play a provisional ball as soon as the rest of my group has hit.  I'm guessing that I probably average at least one provisional ball every couple of rounds.  It saves time while still allowing me to play by the rules.

Op said he couldn't hit his provisional because the group in front was too close, so he zoomed up to see if he could find it while they waited. The alternative would have been to stand there and wait, then hit his ball, then look. Makes sense to me that he should be able to use the down time. I understand that you can't by the rules, but that's

The rule doesn't contemplate such a situation.  In such a case, you finish your search, then if the original ball isn't found, go back and play the provisional ball which has become the ball in play.  Then hurry and catch up to the group ahead.  This is a case where the rule simply can't be written to anticipate such a scenario. It has to address the most common case.  Nobody I know spends a full 5 minutes in a search anyway.  On a busy course that alone would put you off pace.  Since we usually have to wait a minute or two when playing approach shots anyway, we search while waiting, and if the ball isn't found by then we give it up.  Most of the time I don't see any reason to stick to the letter of the rule and search for a full 5 minutes.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

This discussion is slightly off topic because it doesn't pertain to op. he was talking about hitting his provisional a second time ... This is in regards to playing a provisional for the first time :)

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

And I wasn't saying it's off topic in a "we shouldn't talk about it" sense, but just to explain to dsc that the rule we are discussing isn't relevant to the OP's situation. :)

I spent about a half hour reading and re-reading this thread to figure out what you meant.  Finally, I understand!

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The rule doesn't contemplate such a situation.  In such a case, you finish your search, then if the original ball isn't found, go back and play the provisional ball which has become the ball in play.  Then hurry and catch up to the group ahead.  This is a case where the rule simply can't be written to anticipate such a scenario. It has to address the most common case.  Nobody I know spends a full 5 minutes in a search anyway.  On a busy course that alone would put you off pace.  Since we usually have to wait a minute or two when playing approach shots anyway, we search while waiting, and if the ball isn't found by then we give it up.  Most of the time I don't see any reason to stick to the letter of the rule and search for a full 5 minutes.

Yep.  I totally misunderstood.

[Rulesman]

If the player goes forward with the intention of searching then he forfeits his right to play a provisional however far he has gone. The only exceptions are if he has gone forward for a different reason as in the examples. There would be no excuse if (on a strange courser) he hit the ball over the brow of a hill and went forward to see how the land lies on the other side. If he doesn't know what is on the other side he has every opportunity to play a provisional straight away.

[SCfanatic35]

If the player goes forward with the intention of searching then he forfeits his right to play a provisional however far he has gone. The only exceptions are if he has gone forward for a different reason as in the examples. There would be no excuse if (on a strange courser) he hit the ball over the brow of a hill and went forward to see how the land lies on the other side. If he doesn't know what is on the other side he has every opportunity to play a provisional straight away.

your saying if you search before you hit provisional correct? i hit provisional and then while waiting for green to clear searched for original before hitting provisional again.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

If the player goes forward with the intention of searching then he forfeits his right to play a provisional however far he has gone. The only exceptions are if he has gone forward for a different reason as in the examples. There would be no excuse if (on a strange courser) he hit the ball over the brow of a hill and went forward to see how the land lies on the other side. If he doesn't know what is on the other side he has every opportunity to play a provisional straight away.

I think you may be making the same mistake I was. The rule about not being permitted to advance pertains to the first swing at a provisional.  So you can't hit a tee shot, then go look, then back to the tee to hit a provisional.  If you do return to the tee after going forward, the 2nd ball you hit off the tee is "in play" and not a provisional.  If you find the original, you can't play it.

The circumstance the OP (almost) faced was whether after hitting a provisional, the player can go past the provisional to the place where the original was possibly lost, search, then go back and advance the provisional, then look for the original again.  It doesn't seem like anything permits the player to pause the 5 min timer, but also nothing that prohibits him from going ahead to search, or from resuming the search so long as 5 minutes have elapsed.

Or, I could be completely off again.

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

your saying if you search before you hit provisional correct? i hit provisional and then while waiting for green to clear searched for original before hitting provisional again.

Right.  He's referring to the rule we were discussing, but that only pertains to choosing to play a provisional the first time.  That rule does not apply to your situation at all, because you're talking about hitting an already played provisional ball a second time.

[SCfanatic35]

I think you may be making the same mistake I was. The rule about not being permitted to advance pertains to the first swing at a provisional.  So you can't hit a tee shot, then go look, then back to the tee to hit a provisional.  If you do return to the tee after going forward, the 2nd ball you hit off the tee is "in play" and not a provisional.  If you find the original, you can't play it. The circumstance the OP (almost) faced was whether after hitting a provisional, the player can go past the provisional to the place where the original was possibly lost, search, then go back and advance the provisional, then look for the original again.  It doesn't seem like anything permits the player to pause the 5 min timer, but also nothing that prohibits him from going ahead to search, or from resuming the search so long as 5 minutes have elapsed.   Or, I could be completely off again.

you are correct with the scenario and the question.

[dsc123]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

you are correct with the scenario and the question.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by SCfanatic35

your saying if you search before you hit provisional correct? i hit provisional and then while waiting for green to clear searched for original before hitting provisional again.

Sorry. I came to the thread late and saw people talking about going forward and then going back to take a provisional. I should have quoted the post I was trying to clarify.

In your case you were quite correct in taking a provisional.

Your seach was limited to an elapsed 5 minutes from when you started the search. The break to go back would not have stopped the clock. But if the total time to find it was less than 5 min then the original was still in play and you discard the provisional.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The rule doesn't contemplate such a situation.  In such a case, you finish your search, then if the original ball isn't found, go back and play the provisional ball which has become the ball in play.  Then hurry and catch up to the group ahead.  This is a case where the rule simply can't be written to anticipate such a scenario. It has to address the most common case.  Nobody I know spends a full 5 minutes in a search anyway.  On a busy course that alone would put you off pace.  Since we usually have to wait a minute or two when playing approach shots anyway, we search while waiting, and if the ball isn't found by then we give it up.  Most of the time I don't see any reason to stick to the letter of the rule and search for a full 5 minutes.

Somebody else already posted this decision in the thread:

27-2b/3 Original Ball Is Beyond Provisional Ball; Player Searches Briefly for Original Ball, Plays Provisional Ball and Then Finds Original Ball

Q. A player's provisional ball comes to rest short of where the original ball is likely to be. After a two-minute search for the original ball, the player goes back, plays a second stroke with the provisional ball and then his original ball is found within the five-minute time limit. What is the ruling?

A. The player must continue play with the original ball. Play of a provisional ball does not render the original ball lost until it has been played from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (Rule 27-2b).

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by phan52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The rule doesn't contemplate such a situation.  In such a case, you finish your search, then if the original ball isn't found, go back and play the provisional ball which has become the ball in play.  Then hurry and catch up to the group ahead.  This is a case where the rule simply can't be written to anticipate such a scenario. It has to address the most common case.  Nobody I know spends a full 5 minutes in a search anyway.  On a busy course that alone would put you off pace.  Since we usually have to wait a minute or two when playing approach shots anyway, we search while waiting, and if the ball isn't found by then we give it up.  Most of the time I don't see any reason to stick to the letter of the rule and search for a full 5 minutes.

Somebody else already posted this decision in the thread:

27-2b/3 Original Ball Is Beyond Provisional Ball; Player Searches Briefly for Original Ball, Plays Provisional Ball and Then Finds Original Ball

Q. A player's provisional ball comes to rest short of where the original ball is likely to be. After a two-minute search for the original ball, the player goes back, plays a second stroke with the provisional ball and then his original ball is found within the five-minute time limit. What is the ruling?

A. The player must continue play with the original ball. Play of a provisional ball does not render the original ball lost until it has been played from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the hole than that place (Rule 27-2b).

The question I think I was answering was why does the clock continue to run while the player goes back to play the second shot with his provisional ball after starting his search.  The contention was that the clock should be on hold, but the rule doesn't allow that.  The clock keeps ticking.  The case he proposed would only apply if the landing area for his second shot with the provisional ball was still occupied by the group ahead, and the rule doesn't accommodate that possibility.