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3 Putt Again

Caddie and Competitor

16 posts in this topic

Is there anything in the rules that specifically prohibits a competitor from also being a caddie?

Situation 1:  Competitor A plays in the morning and caddies for competitor B in the afternoon.

Situation 2:  Competitors A & B are in the same group.  B becomes fatigued and A carries his bag for several holes (does this even fit the definition of a caddie).

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1) No problem

2) If A carries B's clubs he is his caddie but there are all sorts of problems that could arise. eg advice, touching B's ball.

However IMO, the killer is that if he is carrying more than 14 clubs in total he would be penalised under 4-4a as soon as he uses any one of them .

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Something I wasn't sure of until I just looked up, but with the 2nd question, if the competitor was the player's marker, he can continue as a marker and a caddie.

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Originally Posted by Rulesman

1) No problem

2) If A carries B's clubs he is his caddie but there are all sorts of problems that could arise. eg advice, touching B's ball.

However IMO, the killer is that if he is carrying more than 14 clubs in total he would be penalised under 4-4a as soon as he uses any one of them .

I assume when you say "any one of them" you mean any of B's clubs.

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Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Something I wasn't sure of until I just looked up, but with the 2nd question, if the competitor was the player's marker, he can continue as a marker and a caddie.

Where do you find that? But can he continue as a fellow competitor?

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Originally Posted by 3 Putt Again

I assume when you say "any one of them" you mean any of B's clubs.

No. Any of the clubs in either of the bags if there are more that 14 in total.

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Originally Posted by Rulesman

No. Any of the clubs in either of the bags if there are more that 14 in total.

Ignore the bit about 14 clubs.

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Originally Posted by Rulesman

Where do you find that? But can he continue as a fellow competitor?

D6-4/9.  No the decision talks about a caddie also being a marker.  The marker withdrew during the round as a competitor.  For the obvious reasons stated, I don't think the Rules contemplate a current competitor also being another player's caddie.

I just thought it was interesting that your "side" could keep your score.

Edit:

Never mind, the caddie isn't your "side",  my brain was mixed up with outside agencies.... I think I am going to lie down.

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Originally Posted by Rulesman

No. Any of the clubs in either of the bags if there are more that 14 in total.


So you are viewing that A violated 4-4 by adding clubs selected for play by any other person playing on the course?  4-4a/5, 4-4a/5.5, and 4-4a/8 seem to say that you can carry another person's clubs even in your own bag so long as you do not use those clubs.  I am probably missing something that makes them irrelevant to this situation but what is that?

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The more I think about this the more I'm not so sure that A is a caddie in example #2.

I know what the definition of a caddie says, but I'm not so sure it's contemplates that a competitor can be a caddie at the same time.  Under the rules these are two distinct individuals.

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Originally Posted by 3 Putt Again

So you are viewing that A violated 4-4 by adding clubs selected for play by any other person playing on the course?  4-4a/5, 4-4a/5.5, and 4-4a/8 seem to say that you can carry another person's clubs even in your own bag so long as you do not use those clubs.  I am probably missing something that makes them irrelevant to this situation but what is that?

I think you are right, 4- 4a/1 differs in that they are all the player's clubs. The other decisions confirm that there is no penalty for carrying another player's club, only if he uses one of them.

I had just got back from a party last night and didn't spend long enough thinking about it

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Originally Posted by Rulesman

I think you are right, 4- 4a/1 differs in that they are all the player's clubs. The other decisions confirm that there is no penalty for carrying another player's club, only if he uses one of them.

I had just got back from a party last night and didn't spend long enough thinking about it


OK, if there is not a problem with A having more than 14 clubs unless he uses one of B's clubs, lets go back to the original question.  Is there anything that would prevent A from helping B by carrying his clubs?  If so, is he considered to be B's caddie?  As you earlier indicated, there are a bunch of issues if he is a caddie.  The Rule 8 issues can be consciously avoided but issues that could come up under rules 18 & 19 are more troubling.  For example, I foresee A, with both bags on his shoulders,  accidentally kicking B's ball that is lying in the rough.

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Originally Posted by 3 Putt Again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman

I think you are right, 4- 4a/1 differs in that they are all the player's clubs. The other decisions confirm that there is no penalty for carrying another player's club, only if he uses one of them.

I had just got back from a party last night and didn't spend long enough thinking about it

OK, if there is not a problem with A having more than 14 clubs unless he uses one of B's clubs, lets go back to the original question.  Is there anything that would prevent A from helping B by carrying his clubs?  If so, is he considered to be B's caddie?  As you earlier indicated, there are a bunch of issues if he is a caddie.  The Rule 8 issues can be consciously avoided but issues that could come up under rules 18 & 19 are more troubling.  For example, I foresee A, with both bags on his shoulders,  accidentally kicking B's ball that is lying in the rough.

Or what if B's ball in motion strikes A while he is carrying B's clubs?

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Originally Posted by 3 Putt Again

OK, if there is not a problem with A having more than 14 clubs unless he uses one of B's clubs, lets go back to the original question.  Is there anything that would prevent A from helping B by carrying his clubs?  If so, is he considered to be B's caddie?  As you earlier indicated, there are a bunch of issues if he is a caddie.  The Rule 8 issues can be consciously avoided but issues that could come up under rules 18 & 19 are more troubling.  For example, I foresee A, with both bags on his shoulders,  accidentally kicking B's ball that is lying in the rough.

In a practical sense, your caddie can not be a competitor.  Otherwise some of the rules of golf can not be properly applied.  Example: See definition of "outside agency", which is then used in some of the rules you cited.

I see two possibilities, the competitor would not be considered your caddie, or he would and you would then be in no mans land.  I'm thinking that although the rules define a caddie as someone who carries your clubs, the inability to apply the rules of golf trump this, preventing the competitor from being judged a caddie. Another possibility I guess is a DQ, but I'm not sure under what rule.

It's a interesting question, I'll see if the USGA wants to answer this one.

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I reckon they would say that the rulus do not allow for such a situation.

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Originally Posted by Dormie1360

It's a interesting question, I'll see if the USGA wants to answer this one.

Nothing in the rules prevents this.

The penalties would be bad, however.  Each time the competitor/opponent (caddie) makes a stroke at the ball there would be a a 2 stroke penalty or loss of hole for the player under R7-2.

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